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WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
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Good idea49 Votes - [32.45%]
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2013-02-26 2:07 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I'm in for CDa and when I signed up I expected a mass start.  I was nervous about it no doubt, but I planned to be the last one off the beach.  That way I'd know exactly what place I was in. I'm estimating I'll swim 1:30 or so, but swimming and getting beaten gives me a lot of anxiety. 

The truth is in the end we don't have a say.  I'll do the race no matter what the start is. 

I always thought the idea behind IM was to create the hardest challenge.  I doubt they thought let's start 3000 people at once and that will be a part of this challenge.  

It's always been that way so it can't change or it will suck.  This is a terrible way to look at it.  Someone a long time ago said let's change things up and swim/bike/run.  Thank God they didn't listen to peole who said that would suck. 

We'll all have to give it a chance and see how it goes. 

JMHO not GTFO or GFY or even WTF although I did say all thre of these at one point while reading this thread..

Chris 



2013-02-26 2:44 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Listen I could care less if it stays the same or goes to a wave or TT....the start is not going to define my day however, I do not understand why people "like" the contact.....doesnt it slow you down? get you out of rhythm? basically effect your time?

I think its like a nascar driver saying they like being bumped or boxed out like danica this past weekend...they would not say it because its slows them down....it does not mean they are afraid of collisions just that they know it will slow them down.

or a running back would rather have a hole to run through than having to break many tackles

So I can see that you like the nostalgia of the mass start since the inception of the sport or not bothered by the contact but not to actually like it or want it.



Edited by FELTGood 2013-02-26 2:45 PM
2013-02-26 2:48 PM
in reply to: #4637872

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
FELTGood - 2013-02-26 2:44 PM

Listen I could care less if it stays the same or goes to a wave or TT....the start is not going to define my day however, I do not understand why people "like" the contact.....doesnt it slow you down? get you out of rhythm? basically effect your time?

I think its like a nascar driver saying they like being bumped or boxed out like danica this past weekend...they would not say it because its slows them down....it does not mean they are afraid of collisions just that they know it will slow them down.

or a running back would rather have a hole to run through than having to break many tackles

So I can see that you like the nostalgia of the mass start since the inception of the sport or not bothered by the contact but not to actually like it or want it.

A lot of folks think the mass start is fun; an adventure. I'm one of them. I liked it.

2013-02-26 2:55 PM
in reply to: #4637879

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
lisac957 - 2013-02-26 3:48 PM
FELTGood - 2013-02-26 2:44 PM

Listen I could care less if it stays the same or goes to a wave or TT....the start is not going to define my day however, I do not understand why people "like" the contact.....doesnt it slow you down? get you out of rhythm? basically effect your time?

I think its like a nascar driver saying they like being bumped or boxed out like danica this past weekend...they would not say it because its slows them down....it does not mean they are afraid of collisions just that they know it will slow them down.

or a running back would rather have a hole to run through than having to break many tackles

So I can see that you like the nostalgia of the mass start since the inception of the sport or not bothered by the contact but not to actually like it or want it.

A lot of folks think the mass start is fun; an adventure. I'm one of them. I liked it.

ok, I guess if you enjoy the adventure part of surviving the mosh pit, I will not give anyone a hardtime about that point, but I read posts all the time "I want to KQ", "i want to break 12 hrs" "I want a PR"...i would think if it wasnt the extra several minutes that the mass start slows you down it would be the extra energy you waste getting into and out of scuffles with people that would be more of an issue slowing them down....but maybe thats me and I see your point and I guess others would prefer to mix it up and slow down than go faster

 

2013-02-26 3:07 PM
in reply to: #4637817

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
maverickbassets - 2013-02-26 2:07 PM

I'm in for CDa and when I signed up I expected a mass start.  I was nervous about it no doubt, but I planned to be the last one off the beach.  That way I'd know exactly what place I was in. I'm estimating I'll swim 1:30 or so, but swimming and getting beaten gives me a lot of anxiety. 

The truth is in the end we don't have a say.  I'll do the race no matter what the start is. 

I always thought the idea behind IM was to create the hardest challenge.  I doubt they thought let's start 3000 people at once and that will be a part of this challenge.  

It's always been that way so it can't change or it will suck.  This is a terrible way to look at it.  Someone a long time ago said let's change things up and swim/bike/run.  Thank God they didn't listen to peole who said that would suck. 

We'll all have to give it a chance and see how it goes. 

JMHO not GTFO or GFY or even WTF although I did say all thre of these at one point while reading this thread..

Chris 

Funny post. One correction though. The Waikiki Rough Water Swim from which the idea of Ironman was born was a beach, mass start. Not 3000 people, admittedly, but in roughwater races, you're gonna have contact. Don't like it? GGITP (Go Get In The Pool)...

2013-02-26 3:14 PM
in reply to: #4637808

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 2:01 PM

Thank you for bringing a sense of civility back to this discussion - it was clearly needed.

I agree that WTC might *think* a change is needed and perhaps we should give them benefit of the doubt, but we're just expressing our opinions.  It's still a free country and that's what message boards are good for.  

If WTC really wants to make more money, how about staging more IM races, for example, in South America?  I'm sure there are other ways to increase revenues without changing their winning IM formula.  

South America and Asia are actually their biggest scouting markets right now, so they should be expanding soon. 



2013-02-26 3:17 PM
in reply to: #4637777

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 1:41 PM
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 11:57 AM
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 11:02 AM

I am very surprised by the amount of athletes jumping the gun and already complaining about the change, before it is even confirmed, and before anyone really knows anything about what is going to be done. I wrote this up on my blog last night and scratches the surface of my thoughts. 

Just remember all sports evolve over time and changes are made. If this is a change to improve safety then you cannot get mad at WTC for trying to make a safer product for YOU the athlete.

And I'm very surprised by the number of athletes jumping on the bandwagon without evidence of an increase in safety.

This "Talk to a widow" line is getting old.  Not because we don't sympathize, but because it is not relevant to the facts.  If you want me to talk to the widow from a mass start then you can talk to the one from IMNY - a TT start.   Does that help you at all?

NO ONE would oppose this if it would make a difference.

IMNY was NOT a mass start.  The studies we have seen have seen no increase due to the start type.

We really know nothing here.  We suspect a feeling of panic that results in a similar experience to be the trigger in these cases.  We know that the feeling of panic for most triathletes comes from: Not warming up, cold water in the face, race start jitters, and contact. ??? I would also think it could be from the relatively unpreparedness most triathletes have coming into an IM. People now do IM's as their first triathlon, and others scared to swim without a wetsuit. Point being IM swimmers are not great swimmers, and do not have the experienced background in open water swimming. 

The TT start may reduce contact, but it may also decreases the chance of warming up in a relevant time period as well and increase jitters. 

IMHO Crossing a timing mat on the beach  to start the race, after standing inline for an hour, will cause more of a jump in adrenalin than a deep water start where your heart rate was already up from treading water before the gun. And that is YOUR opinion, one of thousands. The online community is very small in the sport too

I never stated that IMNY was a mass start, just pointed out they had a death in the race. 

WTC has a problem and are trying to find ways to solve this problem. Let us not forget most of these changes are being implemented off of water the consumer has said. Whatever the reason is, which we have yet to be told, everyone is jumping the gun on this. Why not just try it out and see how it goes. 

I think WTC should include a physical exam within a certain date of all races. If you get a complete physical exam, get your blood checked, heart checked underlying issues can be detected. Many triathletes runners that die in these events have an underlying condition that has not been previously diagnosed. But hey thats just my opinion.

Everyone years ago thought the MLB was crazy for introducing the "wild card" and going away from tradition and look how that turned out.

At least give it a chance, or you can just do another race if you are not happy with WTC's product. 

I have given waves a chance.  Every race I have done has been a wave.  I will be doing a TT start at a race (off a boat) in April.   I'd like to give a mass start a chance but some people are advocating getting rid of them before i get the chance.

Yes, I specifically said IMHO to seperate it from fact.  I realize there are others, but it was a point to think about.

You didn't say IMNY was a mass start.  You said, and I paraphrase, that WTC had a problem and a potential solution was Time Trial starts.  But one of the few incidents you referenced had a time trial start.  I think that it is fair to point that out.

In NY (I forget if it was IMNY or the Oly) there were 2 deaths both of experienced triathletes.  The incidents I've read have never been a first timer, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  But it does show that experience isn't the cure all either.

Testing is a whole other topic and one that has been beaten to death.

 

 

 

2013-02-26 3:22 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

How will that work with the midnight cutoff... would later waves have those minutes taken off? I always end up in the last wave of mass starts but still have to meet the same cutoff time giving me as much as 15 minutes less than the first wave.... and I'm the slowest of the slow lol

 

IMCDA is my first IM and I need every second I can get  Less time for to finish would be 1.  Not fair, 2.  Bad for me.  I want the same as everyone else.



Edited by GatorDeb 2013-02-26 3:24 PM
2013-02-27 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
My vote is to keep the mass swim starts.  Nothing screams IRONMAN more than a crazily wild, fend-for-yourself mass swim start.  IMO that is a big part of what makes Ironman, well, Ironman!
2013-02-27 8:24 AM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
FELTGood - 2013-02-26 3:55 PM
lisac957 - 2013-02-26 3:48 PM
FELTGood - 2013-02-26 2:44 PM

Listen I could care less if it stays the same or goes to a wave or TT....the start is not going to define my day however, I do not understand why people "like" the contact.....doesnt it slow you down? get you out of rhythm? basically effect your time?

I think its like a nascar driver saying they like being bumped or boxed out like danica this past weekend...they would not say it because its slows them down....it does not mean they are afraid of collisions just that they know it will slow them down.

or a running back would rather have a hole to run through than having to break many tackles

So I can see that you like the nostalgia of the mass start since the inception of the sport or not bothered by the contact but not to actually like it or want it.

A lot of folks think the mass start is fun; an adventure. I'm one of them. I liked it.

ok, I guess if you enjoy the adventure part of surviving the mosh pit, I will not give anyone a hardtime about that point, but I read posts all the time "I want to KQ", "i want to break 12 hrs" "I want a PR"...i would think if it wasnt the extra several minutes that the mass start slows you down it would be the extra energy you waste getting into and out of scuffles with people that would be more of an issue slowing them down....but maybe thats me and I see your point and I guess others would prefer to mix it up and slow down than go faster

 

Like lisac, I too enjoyed the mayhem of the mass start.  It's not like anyone actually enjoys the physical act of being kicked.  But, it is part of the excitement of the start of the day.  I remember looking around at the nervous smiles around me while treading water.  We were all in it together.  As far as being slowed down?  Considering my IM swim was one of the fastest swims I'd ever done, about 10 minutes faster than I expected, I'd have to say that's not the strongest argument. Some people will be slower sure, but it's possible to be faster as well.   I never got into a scuffle with anyone. If I got converged on, I'd take a peek, and either slow down, or take a couple really hard strokes and get out of it. It just adds a whole dimension.  

To me a big thing is, if you don't like the contact, sit in the back, wait five minutes and you'll have all the freedom you want, and you'll still have 16:55 to finish. However if you're in the back of a TT start, you'll have 16:20-16:30 to finish.  If they do waves, then if you're slow no matter how long you wait after the start, you're going to get steamrolled by the fast swimmers in the next wave. A mass start really seems to be the only one that gives everyone the option to do the swim how ever they want.  

2013-02-27 8:26 AM
in reply to: #4637872

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
FELTGood - 2013-02-26 3:44 PM

Listen I could care less if it stays the same or goes to a wave or TT....the start is not going to define my day however, I do not understand why people "like" the contact.....doesnt it slow you down? get you out of rhythm? basically effect your time?

I think its like a nascar driver saying they like being bumped or boxed out like danica this past weekend...they would not say it because its slows them down....it does not mean they are afraid of collisions just that they know it will slow them down.

or a running back would rather have a hole to run through than having to break many tackles

So I can see that you like the nostalgia of the mass start since the inception of the sport or not bothered by the contact but not to actually like it or want it.

I've only done one mass start (IMFL) and it went off with very little contact and jostling.  Honestly, the wave starts I've done I had way more contact and issues - probably just because of smaller swim area. 

I prefer mass starts because everyone (with the exception of a few pros) started at the same time as you.  It's easier to pull away from the slower racers, and you know generally where you stand while on the course. 



2013-02-27 9:13 AM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 3:17 PM
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 1:41 PM
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 11:57 AM
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 11:02 AM

I am very surprised by the amount of athletes jumping the gun and already complaining about the change, before it is even confirmed, and before anyone really knows anything about what is going to be done. I wrote this up on my blog last night and scratches the surface of my thoughts. 

Just remember all sports evolve over time and changes are made. If this is a change to improve safety then you cannot get mad at WTC for trying to make a safer product for YOU the athlete.

And I'm very surprised by the number of athletes jumping on the bandwagon without evidence of an increase in safety.

This "Talk to a widow" line is getting old.  Not because we don't sympathize, but because it is not relevant to the facts.  If you want me to talk to the widow from a mass start then you can talk to the one from IMNY - a TT start.   Does that help you at all?

NO ONE would oppose this if it would make a difference.

IMNY was NOT a mass start.  The studies we have seen have seen no increase due to the start type.

We really know nothing here.  We suspect a feeling of panic that results in a similar experience to be the trigger in these cases.  We know that the feeling of panic for most triathletes comes from: Not warming up, cold water in the face, race start jitters, and contact. ??? I would also think it could be from the relatively unpreparedness most triathletes have coming into an IM. People now do IM's as their first triathlon, and others scared to swim without a wetsuit. Point being IM swimmers are not great swimmers, and do not have the experienced background in open water swimming. 

The TT start may reduce contact, but it may also decreases the chance of warming up in a relevant time period as well and increase jitters. 

IMHO Crossing a timing mat on the beach  to start the race, after standing inline for an hour, will cause more of a jump in adrenalin than a deep water start where your heart rate was already up from treading water before the gun. And that is YOUR opinion, one of thousands. The online community is very small in the sport too

I never stated that IMNY was a mass start, just pointed out they had a death in the race. 

WTC has a problem and are trying to find ways to solve this problem. Let us not forget most of these changes are being implemented off of water the consumer has said. Whatever the reason is, which we have yet to be told, everyone is jumping the gun on this. Why not just try it out and see how it goes. 

I think WTC should include a physical exam within a certain date of all races. If you get a complete physical exam, get your blood checked, heart checked underlying issues can be detected. Many triathletes runners that die in these events have an underlying condition that has not been previously diagnosed. But hey thats just my opinion.

Everyone years ago thought the MLB was crazy for introducing the "wild card" and going away from tradition and look how that turned out.

At least give it a chance, or you can just do another race if you are not happy with WTC's product. 

I have given waves a chance.  Every race I have done has been a wave.  I will be doing a TT start at a race (off a boat) in April.   I'd like to give a mass start a chance but some people are advocating getting rid of them before i get the chance.

Yes, I specifically said IMHO to seperate it from fact.  I realize there are others, but it was a point to think about.

You didn't say IMNY was a mass start.  You said, and I paraphrase, that WTC had a problem and a potential solution was Time Trial starts.  But one of the few incidents you referenced had a time trial start.  I think that it is fair to point that out.

In NY (I forget if it was IMNY or the Oly) there were 2 deaths both of experienced triathletes.  The incidents I've read have never been a first timer, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  But it does show that experience isn't the cure all either.

Testing is a whole other topic and one that has been beaten to death.

 

 

 

 

"WTC realizes that a problem exists in their product and that safety may be compromised, so they are being proactive to find a possible solution, potentially." 

Where do I suggest that TT starts is their solution? In fact, they are looking into several different start options so maybe TT starts is not one of the potential solutions. But again, we really don't know anything yet, its just all speculation right now.

2013-02-27 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

jford2309 - 2013-02-26 12:19 PM I have seen in smaller races where they gave you a choice. You could start  in a "mass start" in the water already and they called it an "Elite wave" or you could opt for the TT start. it seemed to work fine for a  smaller race, not sure how it would work for an IM though

Great idea jford!!  Those that are racing for Kona and want to know where the competion is can all start at the same time and those that want the experience of a mass start could join the frenzy. Those that like the idea of the TT will be happy. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

2013-02-27 12:08 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Local races here call that the "Open" wave. 
2013-02-27 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
I think some people like the crazyness of the mass start because it's a macho thing. People look at the start as an unbelievable event (and it is ), the triathlete with the tougher than you mentality doesn't want to lose that. I believe if you can complete an Ironman that in itself is a great accomplishment,what kind of start doesn't really matter, unless your wrapped up in the start photo's. I would rather have the finish photo.
2013-03-21 2:06 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Honu 70.3 has always been a mass start.  Last year, they gave the pros a 3 minute head start at 6:57...but most people thought it was simply because of Lance, and they didn't want the AGers wading in the water next to him.

I just found out that this year the pros will start at 6:50, AG men at 6:53, and AG women at 7:00.  FYI, Honu usually has about 1500 people toe the line...so races with 2500+ might see a couple more waves.  This information was just released...less than 3 months from the race.  So don't be surprised if some of the races you have already signed up for later in the summer also releases similar changes.



2013-03-21 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Maybe I missed it, but WTC has yet to release any official word about switching from a mass swim start.

So far, I've only heard about the "discussion" about changing the swim start at CDA.

Is there any updated info on this info since that "discussion" took place??

2013-03-21 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Dino019 - 2013-03-21 10:36 AM

Maybe I missed it, but WTC has yet to release any official word about switching from a mass swim start.

So far, I've only heard about the "discussion" about changing the swim start at CDA.

Is there any updated info on this info since that "discussion" took place??

I don't think there was an official word.  I found out about Honu when the schedule of events for the race was released.

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