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WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
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Good idea49 Votes - [32.45%]
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2013-02-26 12:37 PM
in reply to: #4637613

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.



Edited by __sugar__ 2013-02-26 12:37 PM


2013-02-26 12:41 PM
in reply to: #4637482

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 12:02 PM

I am very surprised by the amount of athletes jumping the gun and already complaining about the change, before it is even confirmed, and before anyone really knows anything about what is going to be done. I wrote this up on my blog last night and scratches the surface of my thoughts. 

Just remember all sports evolve over time and changes are made. If this is a change to improve safety then you cannot get mad at WTC for trying to make a safer product for YOU the athlete.

But isn't that the point people have been making? That it in fact will not make the sport any safer for US the athletes?  If you really want to make it safer than eliminate the swim entirely, since evidence points at the swim itself that has caused deaths, not whether it is a time trial or not.  If there were truly evidence that it was the mass start that was causing deaths it would  be more understandable.  But its not, if they make the change it will be a completely superficial change that will in no way make the sport safer.

2013-02-26 12:49 PM
in reply to: #4637626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 12:37 PM

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.

Well, that was civil...

Since we're discussing not reading the entire thread, it's probably not going to change your mind if I point-out that several times in the thread, it has been pointed out that there is no correlation between mass starts and increased risk of death in the swim.  

The "more spread-out course" is also inaccurate as the slower first wave athletes will be holding-up the faster 2nd-9th wave athletes throughout the course as they try to pass without drafting, make turns, etc.  At least with a mass-start, the cream is at the front on the bike instead of holding-up people that started an hour behind them.  Hell, I'd be one of the offenders as I'm faster than most on the swim and average on the bike.

I do agree with the increased participation.  Get more people to the starting line(s) and thereby make more money.  

2013-02-26 12:50 PM
in reply to: #4637626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 1:37 PM

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.

No, I have read the entire thread.  And I think your tone is way off base, but let's leave that aside for now.  

My point is still the same - I haven't heard a good reason yet IMHO.  Why is that so hard to believe?  

 

2013-02-26 12:56 PM
in reply to: #4637649

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 10:50 AM
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 1:37 PM

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.

No, I have read the entire thread.  And I think your tone is way off base, but let's leave that aside for now.  

My point is still the same - I haven't heard a good reason yet IMHO.  Why is that so hard to believe?  

 

Good for the participants or good for WTC?

2013-02-26 12:58 PM
in reply to: #4630534


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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Making it safer doesn't need to mean preventing deaths. The race is safer if you are not getting kicked, pulled on etc. Some people like the excitement and "danger" of a mass start. It also probably keeps some people away. You see advice to new participants to start on the side to avoid the mess that can be associated with a group start.



2013-02-26 1:02 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I do agree with the increased participation.  Get more people to the starting line(s) and thereby make more money.

I think there's a breaking point regardless of the type of start you do.  And the problem isn't the swim -- it's the bike course crowding as you mentioned.

When I raced IM Western Australia, it was capped at 1500 people.  The swim was so spread out that I had to actively pay attention to find someone to draft.  But with the bike course being 3 loops, it was a pretty steady train of riders the whole way.  At least for a MOP person like myself.

So yeah you could get more people on course with a TT / wave start somewhere like Penticton where everything is one loop.  But not so much on other courses with multiple loops.  They're getting crowded at 2k people and annoying at 2500+.

 

People want to talk about safety - maybe someone should be looking at bike course incidents.



Edited by spudone 2013-02-26 1:03 PM
2013-02-26 1:03 PM
in reply to: #4637626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 12:37 PM

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.

Hahahaaa what? 
This thread was a great discussion while it lasted. 

2013-02-26 1:07 PM
in reply to: #4637673

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
spudone - 2013-02-26 1:02 PM

I do agree with the increased participation.  Get more people to the starting line(s) and thereby make more money.

I think there's a breaking point regardless of the type of start you do.  And the problem isn't the swim -- it's the bike course crowding as you mentioned.

When I raced IM Western Australia, it was capped at 1500 people.  The swim was so spread out that I had to actively pay attention to find someone to draft.  But with the bike course being 3 loops, it was a pretty steady train of riders the whole way.  At least for a MOP person like myself.

So yeah you could get more people on course with a TT / wave start somewhere like Penticton where everything is one loop.  But not so much on other courses with multiple loops.  They're getting crowded at 2k people and annoying at 2500+.

 

People want to talk about safety - maybe someone should be looking at bike course incidents.

My point was more to your point in your other post.  WTC sees increased participation as a good reason to do it because they make more money.

Maybe a risk/insurance analyst can speak to how they would handle the differences between two different starts if they were writing a policy.  Data doesn't support a reduction in insurance fees IMO.   

2013-02-26 1:08 PM
in reply to: #4637626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 1:37 PM

GTFO.

What does that mean?  I mean, urban dictionary told me what it meant, but "out" of where?  Out of the thread?  Or out of the internet?  I think GFY would have been more appropriate, considering, but I'm not real up on the slangisms.

 

 

 

2013-02-26 1:09 PM
in reply to: #4637626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 12:37 PM

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:28 PM   I haven't heard a good reason yet.  


Then you clearly have been ignoring this entire thread. I don't even want the wave start, because of timing and the "different race" issue, but clearly you have missed:

    Increased participation

    More spread out course

and the most important one:

    They think it could save lives.

If you don't think that's a good reason. GTFO.

So if I think it might save lives to remove all the stop signs does that mean it does?

Without facts, or at least a reasonable corelation, then they may do more harm than good.



2013-02-26 1:10 PM
in reply to: #4637665

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Sidney Porter - 2013-02-26 1:58 PM

Making it safer doesn't need to mean preventing deaths. The race is safer if you are not getting kicked, pulled on etc. Some people like the excitement and "danger" of a mass start. It also probably keeps some people away. You see advice to new participants to start on the side to avoid the mess that can be associated with a group start.

Thats a very good point.

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:50 PM

My point is still the same - I haven't heard a good reason yet IMHO.  Why is that so hard to believe?

I don't even... I just listed 3 reasons. You may disagree with them or you may find them less important to you than the mass start, but they're still reasons. If you want the mass start purely because you want a mass start then there's no such thing as a "good" reason for you.

2013-02-26 1:10 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

 

Some reading material - for what we _know_

 

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/12/features/conviction-deaths-in-triathlon_67738

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/10/news/usa-triathlon-releases-fatality-incidents-study_65528

USA Tri report here: http://www.usatriathlon.org/~/media/d0cc25327b574798934fca3366270f1... report states -

The fatality rate does not appear to be related to:
a. The length of the race
b. The type of swim venue (with the exception that no fatalities occurred in a swimming
pool)
c. The method of swim start (e.g., mass, wave or time trial)

-----------------------------------

The above is what we know.

We participate in a sport that is designed to push our limits and we accept some risk.  I wish to make it safer but not by chasing some bogeyman called the mass start.  Best thing I have heard so far is requiring a history of 70.3 before doing a 140.6; but would be curious about the backgrounds of those that had died to see if there is any correlation to experience to death, I could be creating another false path.

 

Then again they may not be one solution. 

Better history of competing with each athlete before moving up to a tougher event.

Being more congenial during a race

Required stress testing/physical within 6 months of an event

Others?

I don't know but am spit balling.

2013-02-26 1:10 PM
in reply to: #4637686

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
GomesBolt - 2013-02-26 11:07 AM
spudone - 2013-02-26 1:02 PM

I do agree with the increased participation.  Get more people to the starting line(s) and thereby make more money.

I think there's a breaking point regardless of the type of start you do.  And the problem isn't the swim -- it's the bike course crowding as you mentioned.

When I raced IM Western Australia, it was capped at 1500 people.  The swim was so spread out that I had to actively pay attention to find someone to draft.  But with the bike course being 3 loops, it was a pretty steady train of riders the whole way.  At least for a MOP person like myself.

So yeah you could get more people on course with a TT / wave start somewhere like Penticton where everything is one loop.  But not so much on other courses with multiple loops.  They're getting crowded at 2k people and annoying at 2500+.

 

People want to talk about safety - maybe someone should be looking at bike course incidents.

My point was more to your point in your other post.  WTC sees increased participation as a good reason to do it because they make more money.

Maybe a risk/insurance analyst can speak to how they would handle the differences between two different starts if they were writing a policy.  Data doesn't support a reduction in insurance fees IMO.   

I agree it's unlikely insurance costs are a factor.  I see it boiling down to a WTC board discussion about margins.

"Well, if we do a TT start we can squeeze 500 more racers onto the course.  That's a 20% increase!"

2013-02-26 1:12 PM
in reply to: #4637673

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
spudone - 2013-02-26 1:02 PM

People want to talk about safety - maybe someone should be looking at bike course incidents.

Shhhh.  They'll start requiring airbags...

2013-02-26 1:12 PM
in reply to: #4637697

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 2:09 PM

So if I think it might save lives to remove all the stop signs does that mean it does?

Without facts, or at least a reasonable corelation, then they may do more harm than good.

There's no question that you're right on this one. WTC has provided no statistics as far as safety. I like to think that they have a better idea than I do, but who knows, this could just be general inference. Even still, I can't complain about them investigating the idea of making things safer.



2013-02-26 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
lisac957 - 2013-02-26 12:00 PM
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 11:57 AM 

IMHO Crossing a timing mat on the beach  to start the race, after standing inline for an hour, will cause more of a jump in adrenalin than a deep water start where your heart rate was already up from treading water before the gun.

But isn't that essentially how the other 99% of triathlons start? You wait till your wave goes off, which means standing around for hours before the race without a proper warm up. At least that's how it goes for my races. 70.3s are the worst, I wait at LEAST an hour after transition closes to start my race - every time.

Yes.... sort of.

Galveston that has you jump off a dock and swim around for 5 minutes before the start at least has you in the water.  A lot of races I've done do.  I've only done one beach start .... and yes that was exciting.

Time Trial seems to me more like a beach start than most waves I've done.

But I'm not saying it isn't safe.  I'm just arguing it isn't safer. 

2013-02-26 1:14 PM
in reply to: #4637694

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Goosedog - 2013-02-26 1:08 PM
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 1:37 PM

GTFO.

What does that mean?  I mean, urban dictionary told me what it meant, but "out" of where?  Out of the thread?  Or out of the internet?  I think GFY would have been more appropriate, considering, but I'm not real up on the slangisms.

 

x2.  

"GFY" would definitely have been better in that context.  Wink

2013-02-26 1:16 PM
in reply to: #4637665

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Sidney Porter - 2013-02-26 12:58 PM

Making it safer doesn't need to mean preventing deaths. The race is safer if you are not getting kicked, pulled on etc. Some people like the excitement and "danger" of a mass start. It also probably keeps some people away. You see advice to new participants to start on the side to avoid the mess that can be associated with a group start.

I get that some people might not like the contact in the water.  But those people have the choice to wait a few minutes after the gun goes off before they start, or they can start off to the side.  

2013-02-26 1:19 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
I have seen in smaller races where they gave you a choice. You could start  in a "mass start" in the water already and they called it an "Elite wave" or you could opt for the TT start. it seemed to work fine for a  smaller race, not sure how it would work for an IM though
2013-02-26 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I think understanding the motivations for this proposed (rumored?) change is important.  IMO, its a significant change, so understanding why is going to be important to getting the customer to accept, buy-in, or even support the change.  If its for safety reasons, then lets hear more about why the change would be safer. Good points above about "safer" can and does mean more than reducing deaths.

But if its to increase participation, then that might go against the desired outcome of making IM safer.  On looped courses that would increase congestion on the bike.  At Arizona, my lone IM experience, I'm not sure how many more athletes they could safely fit on the course.  Seemed pretty crowded already.  Not to mention making it that much more difficult to avoid drafting.

Not sure that a one-size-fits-all change would be appropriate for all venues.



2013-02-26 1:31 PM
in reply to: #4637700

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
__sugar__ - 2013-02-26 2:10 PM
Sidney Porter - 2013-02-26 1:58 PM

Making it safer doesn't need to mean preventing deaths. The race is safer if you are not getting kicked, pulled on etc. Some people like the excitement and "danger" of a mass start. It also probably keeps some people away. You see advice to new participants to start on the side to avoid the mess that can be associated with a group start.

Thats a very good point.

LarchmontTri - 2013-02-26 1:50 PM

My point is still the same - I haven't heard a good reason yet IMHO.  Why is that so hard to believe?

I don't even... I just listed 3 reasons. You may disagree with them or you may find them less important to you than the mass start, but they're still reasons. If you want the mass start purely because you want a mass start then there's no such thing as a "good" reason for you.

Wow, your tone is still really negative and to be honest, it's not warranted, but whatever...

Ok, onto your points... (and unlike you, I will keep this civil.)

1.  Increased participation - not sure waves would solve that.  There is only so much space and housing in LP, for example.  Does WTC really think they can jam more participants at that race?  I can't speak for all the race venues, but if they wanted to increase participation, they can add those extra folks now to at least some of the races.  A few hundred more racers in a mass start of 2k at IMFL really wouldn't change the dynamics of the race all that much.  Each venue and course would have to be analysed to see if that specific race can handle more folks.  The mass start isn't the constraint.

2.  More spread out course - again, each venue is different.  I did IMFL this past year and folks were all over the beach at the start.  I didn't see any problems with the mass start from that perspective.

3.  Safety - I think this point has been beaten to pulp already.  Show us the data and then we can have an intelligent conversation about it.  Until I see the data, I think WTC (or perhaps their lawyers) is making a problem where one doesn't *seem* to exist.  

As I said before, mass starts are part of the drama and appeal of an IM race.  I like them, and until I see some credible data and hear a good reason why WTC feels they should change the format of IM races, I'll stick to my original point.  My point is WTC has a good formula, why change it?

2013-02-26 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-26 11:57 AM
bcagle25 - 2013-02-26 11:02 AM

I am very surprised by the amount of athletes jumping the gun and already complaining about the change, before it is even confirmed, and before anyone really knows anything about what is going to be done. I wrote this up on my blog last night and scratches the surface of my thoughts. 

Just remember all sports evolve over time and changes are made. If this is a change to improve safety then you cannot get mad at WTC for trying to make a safer product for YOU the athlete.

And I'm very surprised by the number of athletes jumping on the bandwagon without evidence of an increase in safety.

This "Talk to a widow" line is getting old.  Not because we don't sympathize, but because it is not relevant to the facts.  If you want me to talk to the widow from a mass start then you can talk to the one from IMNY - a TT start.   Does that help you at all?

NO ONE would oppose this if it would make a difference.

IMNY was NOT a mass start.  The studies we have seen have seen no increase due to the start type.

We really know nothing here.  We suspect a feeling of panic that results in a similar experience to be the trigger in these cases.  We know that the feeling of panic for most triathletes comes from: Not warming up, cold water in the face, race start jitters, and contact. ??? I would also think it could be from the relatively unpreparedness most triathletes have coming into an IM. People now do IM's as their first triathlon, and others scared to swim without a wetsuit. Point being IM swimmers are not great swimmers, and do not have the experienced background in open water swimming. 

The TT start may reduce contact, but it may also decreases the chance of warming up in a relevant time period as well and increase jitters. 

IMHO Crossing a timing mat on the beach  to start the race, after standing inline for an hour, will cause more of a jump in adrenalin than a deep water start where your heart rate was already up from treading water before the gun. And that is YOUR opinion, one of thousands. The online community is very small in the sport too

I never stated that IMNY was a mass start, just pointed out they had a death in the race. 

WTC has a problem and are trying to find ways to solve this problem. Let us not forget most of these changes are being implemented off of water the consumer has said. Whatever the reason is, which we have yet to be told, everyone is jumping the gun on this. Why not just try it out and see how it goes. 

I think WTC should include a physical exam within a certain date of all races. If you get a complete physical exam, get your blood checked, heart checked underlying issues can be detected. Many triathletes runners that die in these events have an underlying condition that has not been previously diagnosed. But hey thats just my opinion.

Everyone years ago thought the MLB was crazy for introducing the "wild card" and going away from tradition and look how that turned out.

At least give it a chance, or you can just do another race if you are not happy with WTC's product. 

2013-02-26 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Wow, your tone is still really negative and to be honest, it's not warranted, but whatever...

Ok, onto your points... (and unlike you, I will keep this civil.)

1.  Increased participation - not sure waves would solve that.  There is only so much space and housing in LP, for example.  Does WTC really think they can jam more participants at that race?  I can't speak for all the race venues, but if they wanted to increase participation, they can add those extra folks now to at least some of the races.  A few hundred more racers in a mass start of 2k at IMFL really wouldn't change the dynamics of the race all that much.  Each venue and course would have to be analysed to see if that specific race can handle more folks.  The mass start isn't the constraint.

2.  More spread out course - again, each venue is different.  I did IMFL this past year and folks were all over the beach at the start.  I didn't see any problems with the mass start from that perspective.

3.  Safety - I think this point has been beaten to pulp already.  Show us the data and then we can have an intelligent conversation about it.  Until I see the data, I think WTC (or perhaps their lawyers) is making a problem where one doesn't *seem* to exist.  

As I said before, mass starts are part of the drama and appeal of an IM race.  I like them, and until I see some credible data and hear a good reason why WTC feels they should change the format of IM races, I'll stick to my original point.  My point is WTC has a good formula, why change it?

I apologize for not taking the time to make sure that my tone came off as intended. It was not meant to be negative or attacking. That said, when I see people completely dismiss arguments that others have made it really makes my blood boil. I appreciate that you acknowledge the arguments against, even if you disagree with them. I agree that this should probably be decided on a race by race basis, and I agree that we haven't been presented with information about *how* this would make things safer. That said, I say give them the benefit of the doubt, try it out, don't jump on their heads and say that this is a completely baseless decision without giving them a chance first. I find it hard to believe that they sat in a room and said, "hey, lets change this for no reason." Which seemed to be what you were implying by dismissing and ignoring other arguments.

2013-02-26 2:01 PM
in reply to: #4637790

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Thank you for bringing a sense of civility back to this discussion - it was clearly needed.

I agree that WTC might *think* a change is needed and perhaps we should give them benefit of the doubt, but we're just expressing our opinions.  It's still a free country and that's what message boards are good for.  

If WTC really wants to make more money, how about staging more IM races, for example, in South America?  I'm sure there are other ways to increase revenues without changing their winning IM formula.  

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