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2013-02-27 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

I would agree that if you're going to try and use a HRM, establish your zones, and train/race with it, then you should go by HR and not pace.  It would be like if someone bought a power meter for their bike, and decided that they would now train never to ride below 18 mph and just monitor what power they put out afterwards.  It's sort of backwards thinking.

I'm not sure why you even picked a random pace like 9:00 mm to never go below.  FWIW, the last open HM I ran was about 1:41, and I was doing most of my long runs slower than 9:00 pace.  Some a little faster, but it also made a difference that I was running a decent amount of volume besides the long run.

While being able to do all your easy runs faster than 9:00 pace would be a good indicator that you can run a sub 1:45 half, it you're forcing yourself to train at that pace while your body isn't ready for it, you're just going to burn yourself out, have subsequent crappy runs, or possibly get injured.



2013-02-27 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
JohnnyKay - 2013-02-27 9:25 AM

RookieIM - 2013-02-27 9:17 AM

I think chasing a pace is fine for short distance races, but for something like this and up, it's really a matter of what your body allows you to do, within reason.

Why would a 5k or 10k be any different?  Smart training is smart training.  And the opposite is also true, regardless of race distance.

^^100% agree^^

Proper pacing for every race comes from proper training and repeatable sessions.  Nothing special happens on race day. 

2013-02-27 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
iruptacopula - 2013-02-27 9:38 AM
cpzone - 2013-02-27 9:12 AM

Rick Kane - 2013-02-27 12:31 AM 151 seems a bit high to be considered zone 1. I'd think about reassessing your zones

X2....even if you use 200 as your max, how are you coming up with 140's as Z1?  We're all different, but on runs up to 10 miles, our small group of runners has very minimal drift, even in Z2 and the low side of Z3.  Wonder what others have to say.

He said he did an LT test and an it was 181. So his zone 1 is 119-153 per BT calculator. My LT is 187, the 140's is my easy warm up.

Sorry for the hijack to reply...The zone percentages I've been training to are far from this.  Perhaps I haven't been keeping up, and have made too many assumptions, but isn't Z1 basically used for recovery runs?  That calls for 60-70% max.  As a person becomes more fit, they may be able to do their long runs in the aerobic zone, which is 70-80%.  This pretty much helps develop your ability to increase O2 to the muscles and take CO2 away.  But now that the subject is open, I'm really curious if I'm undertraining.  But for myself, I can't imagine going harder.

 

2013-02-27 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
tri808 - 2013-02-27 10:38 AM

I'm not sure why you even picked a random pace like 9:00 mm to never go below.  FWIW, the last open HM I ran was about 1:41, and I was doing most of my long runs slower than 9:00 pace.  Some a little faster, but it also made a difference that I was running a decent amount of volume besides the long run.

 

Ego.  No other good excuse.

2013-02-27 10:46 AM
in reply to: #4638310

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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

FWIW - I see this same type of continual HR climb anytime I'm on the treadmill at the gym - especially on runs of 6-10 miles.  I've figured out that it is simply heat.  The air circulation isn't the greatest around the treadmills I run on and none of the 'mills have a fan. The body just keeps getting warmer, so the HR keeps climbing. If I do the exact same run outside, I can cruise all day long in the same HR zone.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure what anyone else does, but I've been following one of Pfitz's plans and as such I do all of my long runs in zones 2 & 3 (zone 1 being recovery runs only). Actually, almost ALL of my runs are in zones 2 or 3.



Edited by cgregg 2013-02-27 10:47 AM
2013-02-27 10:48 AM
in reply to: #4638967

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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
Zero2Athlete - 2013-02-27 6:45 AM
tri808 - 2013-02-27 10:38 AM

I'm not sure why you even picked a random pace like 9:00 mm to never go below.  FWIW, the last open HM I ran was about 1:41, and I was doing most of my long runs slower than 9:00 pace.  Some a little faster, but it also made a difference that I was running a decent amount of volume besides the long run.

 

Ego.  No other good excuse.

Something we are all guilty of. 

Trust your training.  Know that SMART training will lead to optimal fitness gains.  And come race day, you'll toe the line at the best fitness possible and just see where the chips fall.



2013-02-27 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
Zero2Athlete - 2013-02-27 11:45 AM
tri808 - 2013-02-27 10:38 AM

I'm not sure why you even picked a random pace like 9:00 mm to never go below.  FWIW, the last open HM I ran was about 1:41, and I was doing most of my long runs slower than 9:00 pace.  Some a little faster, but it also made a difference that I was running a decent amount of volume besides the long run.

 

Ego.  No other good excuse.

An honest man who knows himself....Wink

When I first started doing HR training, my coach told me to think of my Z2 long runs as "bag runs".  I'd be going so slowly that I'd want to wear a bag over my head so that none of my friends would recognize me.  It was tough at first getting passed by mothers with jogging strollers or struggling to keep up with power walkers, but it does work if you stick with it. 

Good luck,

Mark

 

2013-02-27 11:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
cgregg - 2013-02-27 11:46 AM

FWIW - I see this same type of continual HR climb anytime I'm on the treadmill at the gym - especially on runs of 6-10 miles.  I've figured out that it is simply heat.  The air circulation isn't the greatest around the treadmills I run on and none of the 'mills have a fan. The body just keeps getting warmer, so the HR keeps climbing. If I do the exact same run outside, I can cruise all day long in the same HR zone.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure what anyone else does, but I've been following one of Pfitz's plans and as such I do all of my long runs in zones 2 & 3 (zone 1 being recovery runs only). Actually, almost ALL of my runs are in zones 2 or 3.

I am always slower on the treadmill. The heat is incredible. I had to do an 18-miler a few weeks ago indoors and I went through 3 times as much water as I do outdoors. I think it also worked out to 15-20 seconds per mile slower than outdoors. It was not fun.

FWIW as a life-long runner I've never trained with a HRM. It's always been RPE. One of the hardest things to do when you're feeling great is to slow it down. Most of he time that's what you have to do, especially at the start of the run. But if you know your body, and you've run long enough, you know there are those days where you just have to let it roll and see what you can do. That's not every run, nor every week. It's those magical runs that feel effortless that let you know you're ready to race. BUT, if you constantly push like that you get injured, and then there is no race! Listen to your body. 

2013-02-27 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

The HR drift during a workout could also be symptomatic of insufficient aerobic endurance to be doing the distances you're doing. 

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling,-by-joe-friel.aspx

It's long and kinda dense, but it may explain what you're seeing - do the math and see whether that could be a possibility. It's not the only reason though, here's a quote from later in the same article:

"Besides low aerobic endurance, decoupling may also occur due to a failure to take in fluids at a rate which prevents excessive dehydration during a workout. Also associated with decoupling is environmental heat stress which can cause heart rate to rise or power/speed to fall."

So if it was very hot, that could be what you're seeing. 

Also echo what everyone else is saying - if you're going to run by pace, run by pace. If you're going to run by HR, run by HR. Mixing the two up gives you the worst of both worlds. 

John

ETA: In Brian's post above, the decoupling seems to be the result of heat/lack of fluids - that could also be the same for you, although the gradual drift is unusual...



Edited by guitarfrk75 2013-02-27 12:01 PM
2013-02-27 5:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
BrianRunsPhilly - 2013-02-27 12:05 PM 

FWIW as a life-long runner I've never trained with a HRM. It's always been RPE. One of the hardest things to do when you're feeling great is to slow it down. Most of he time that's what you have to do, especially at the start of the run. But if you know your body, and you've run long enough, you know there are those days where you just have to let it roll and see what you can do. That's not every run, nor every week. It's those magical runs that feel effortless that let you know you're ready to race. BUT, if you constantly push like that you get injured, and then there is no race! Listen to your body. 

I agree with this. I'm a lifelong runner (with long interruptions) who went for 30 years without using a HRM, and was pretty skeptical of the idea. But over the past year I've come to learn how effective it is -- mostly for giving me honest feedback on whether I'm going too hard. It's a valuable reality check in training, and in my last marathon it was incredibly useful, and helped me to pace myself with confidence. BUT, I also know that I can't blindly assign fixed numbers to HR 'zones', and have to be mindful of how my HR is affected by weather, hydration, etc.

2013-02-27 6:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

Just to throw a bone into this dish, how does the "junk zone" Z3 feel in terms of effort where its harder to recover from, and why wouldn't it be any harder for your body to recover from a Z4 effort like a tempo, or tempo intervals of 6'?

Also, I read that your body doesn't adapt to those stresses very well from Z3. Anyone able to confirm or deny that?



2013-02-27 7:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

I thought about this post last night, and felt I had to test it this AM.   I kept a close eye on my HR this AM while running a 5km loop  around a lake near my house with slight undulating hills.    It was also after a hard 60 minute ride, FWIW.  

 

The first 5km I stayed consistent around 5:25min Ks and my average HR remained between 129-134 the entire time.  

The next 30 minutes I did 6 x 3 mins moderate effort (4:30 min / k) / 2 min IM pace (5:30 min / k). My HR bounced around between 142-150 for the next 6km.   Some K's were near the high end, others near the low end.  Differed based on the pace of the lap.   But it didn't trend up the entire time.  

Thinking through this, when I'm racing and pushing the pace hard, my HR will creep up for awhile until it plateus, and then begins to 'drift' up higher a bit later in the race.    When I do my long slow runs, my HR will generally remain flat or creep up ~5-10bmp over the entire run.  

2013-02-27 10:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

run more. how often do you do a ' distance' workout and what is the max distance?  your distance pace should still be higher than you recovery pace; run fast for speed and interval work, really slow for recovery, and somewhere in between for distance.  if 10 miles is the max you have worked up to then i wouldn't be surprised by the numbers, your body just isn't used to it yet, you are hitting the limit and your body is responding that way.

2013-02-28 8:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
odpaul7 - 2013-02-27 6:17 PM

Just to throw a bone into this dish, how does the "junk zone" Z3 feel in terms of effort where its harder to recover from, and why wouldn't it be any harder for your body to recover from a Z4 effort like a tempo, or tempo intervals of 6'?

Also, I read that your body doesn't adapt to those stresses very well from Z3. Anyone able to confirm or deny that?

To me, it's felt like I'm actually getting some work done in the run, but it's not hard to keep up. I could do it for quite awhile without pushing like I'd have to up near threshold. I could keep running this for a long time. Afterward, there might be some slight aching or stiffness, but not too much.

A Z4 run of equal duration would be harder on the body. We go to Z4 to stimulate adaptations that occur by working up at that level. Z3 might stimulate some of those adaptations, but not as much as working in Z4, so one would have to do a lot more work in Z3, and even then I'm not sure one would see all the adaptations occur that faster paced running would stimulate. Running harder isn't just to create more stress, but to stimulate the adaptations at particular levels. So do keep paying attention whenever you go faster than easy.

2013-02-28 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
brigby1 - 2013-02-28 8:03 AM
odpaul7 - 2013-02-27 6:17 PM

Just to throw a bone into this dish, how does the "junk zone" Z3 feel in terms of effort where its harder to recover from, and why wouldn't it be any harder for your body to recover from a Z4 effort like a tempo, or tempo intervals of 6'?

Also, I read that your body doesn't adapt to those stresses very well from Z3. Anyone able to confirm or deny that?

To me, it's felt like I'm actually getting some work done in the run, but it's not hard to keep up. I could do it for quite awhile without pushing like I'd have to up near threshold. I could keep running this for a long time. Afterward, there might be some slight aching or stiffness, but not too much.

A Z4 run of equal duration would be harder on the body. We go to Z4 to stimulate adaptations that occur by working up at that level. Z3 might stimulate some of those adaptations, but not as much as working in Z4, so one would have to do a lot more work in Z3, and even then I'm not sure one would see all the adaptations occur that faster paced running would stimulate. Running harder isn't just to create more stress, but to stimulate the adaptations at particular levels. So do keep paying attention whenever you go faster than easy.

Its kind of like a risk reward thing.  Zone 3 increases the stresses on your body which makes you more likely to get injured, with only a small increase to the fitness you can gain.  Its better to do more zone 2 running with less injury risk and similar fitness gains, and then sometimes zone 4 running.  Zone 4 running does carry higher injury risk and require more recovery, but the fitness gains are much larger, so there is more "reward" for your risk.

2013-02-28 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
Cardiac drift is normal.


2013-02-28 8:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
This is NOT the way to train, but for the sake of argument, let's assume you're in 1:45 HM shape. Plugging that in to McMillan's training calculator, your Long Run training pace should be 8:27-9:45.

So, 9:00 pace could be appropriate, but why not slow down the long run to 9:30 or 9:45 pace and see what happens over those last miles? See if you get more consistency in your HR. And you'll still be training correctly as a 1:45 Half runner would. But again, the important thing is that you should train based on what you actually did, not what you hope to do.

2013-02-28 10:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
Zero2Athlete - 2013-02-26 9:05 PM

I'm hoping to run a HM in 7 weeks in 1:45 (8:00 pace).  I've been trying to make my base running pace 9:00 for basically any time I'm not doing an interval or some sort of speed work.  For the most part, I'm fine with it.  But I do notice my heart rate creeping and things getting tougher the last ouple miles of my long runs.  This past weekend, I ran 10.  the first 7 were easy.  The last few got tough. I did spend the evening before snowboarding...so I'm not sure how much that could have played a part .  But here's my HR for each mile:

It was a treadmill run, so pace was steady at 9:00 (per treadmill, 8:50 per Garmin footpod)


What bad things will happen if I refuse to run at slower than 9:00 to keep my HR in zone 1? (which is from 117-151, zone 2 up to 161)

Highlighted here is a part I find key.  Training for endurance, it is key to spend your easy/long runs around 60%-65% of max. You should find this easy....too easy, this should not be tough. the issue I think you face is being hung up on the time AND heart rate.

Training at the lower heart rate teaches your body to consume fat as it's primary fuel and not rely on the carbohydrate stores. 

Reducing body fat, primarily consuming fat as fuel and not carbohydrate stores means you have those stores for the higher intensity workouts.

I would say, if you are finding the last few miles of your run tough, if your HR zone creeps up and you feel muscle soreness and tired, your long runs are too fast.

to the question: "what bad things can happen?

> you will use your fuel source for higher intensity workouts, these will become harder, slower and less effective.

> your body will be "trained" to rely more on carb stores and not efficient at burning fat for fuel.

> your short, mid and long distance pace will blend, you will find small difference between them

> your training may plateau, you may find it hard to make gains in speed and endurance.

> longer, higher intensity runs leave you exposed to injury

Try an experiment for me, go run 10 miles, start your HRM but do not look at it, run slowly, run as if you're out running with a buddy.  If you feel your HR spike slow down, relax run a slower pace, but get to the end of the run feeling comfortable, as if you didn't try hard enough.  then review your data, your HR may well show a gradual increase, but overall you'll have a range you can work in for your long runs.

I will tell you there are many people who find it very difficult to train at the correct HR for endurance training, many people find it too easy and push a little more.  I know...I am one of them!!!  it's a mental effort for me to slow down to the right zones, but when I do, my run becomes relaxed and I find when I have completed the distance my overall time is not as slow as I felt I was going.  to go slow I have to ignore the GPS/HRM.

2013-02-28 10:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

I actually did plug in both what I've done and my goal into McMillan and, like you said, did come up with 9:00 being acceptable.  Why not slow down?  Because I'm too prideful. 

I wanted to (and did) generate discussion on other's knowledge and experience on the matter.  Thank you all for contributing...it was informative.  As for mixing pace and HR training...I really want to train by pace, but like to collect and ponder the HR data from those training sessions.  Sometimes during a run HR warns me that I'm not recovered or getting sick.  I also hope I can use HR correctively in races - that is to be able to adjust for various conditions or go "hey, you're pace is X but your HR is only Y ...you can pick it up, slacker!"

2013-02-28 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

Disagree. I dropped my marathon by 40 minutes over a 2-year period by doing Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning plans.

 

The long runs were ALWAYS tough. In fact, I knew I was during it right if I was hurting bad in the final mile or two. This however, usually meant that mile 1 of a 20 mile run was feeling barely uncomfortable, and it just progressively harder to maintain the same pace throughout the run.

 

It's more important to:

1) Run at a pace where you're not dropping off pace in the final miles

2) Not so hard a pace that you're destroyed for the rest of of the week's workouts and thus compromise them.

 

You can run as fast as you can for the long run as long as these criteria are met. In fact, the faster you run, the better (sounds obvious, but in today's age of misinformation, a lot of people mistakenly think training less = better results, which is absolutely not the case for the vast majority of age groupers.)

2013-02-28 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
yazmaster - 2013-02-28 11:59 AM

Disagree. I dropped my marathon by 40 minutes over a 2-year period by doing Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning plans.

 

The long runs were ALWAYS tough. In fact, I knew I was during it right if I was hurting bad in the final mile or two. This however, usually meant that mile 1 of a 20 mile run was feeling barely uncomfortable, and it just progressively harder to maintain the same pace throughout the run.

 

It's more important to:

1) Run at a pace where you're not dropping off pace in the final miles

2) Not so hard a pace that you're destroyed for the rest of of the week's workouts and thus compromise them.

 

You can run as fast as you can for the long run as long as these criteria are met. In fact, the faster you run, the better (sounds obvious, but in today's age of misinformation, a lot of people mistakenly think training less = better results, which is absolutely not the case for the vast majority of age groupers.)

first point - The faster you run the better.  this is not always true, impact on your ability to maintain your training is a big part of this.  Running faster (higher intensity) absolutely can lead to over training.  and over training is not a good thing. 

To the second section highlighted - mistakenly thinking training less = better results.  Lot's of people associate training in the lower zones as "training less" that's the big mistake.  Training in the lower zones allows you to train consistently, train efficiently, train regularly.

Others will have different experiences and more experience, but speaking from my personal experience (and to clarify: I have completed around 15 marathons in the last few years, I have run ultra events, I have run 3 marathons, in three days, all off road on two occasions and will be racing this event again in a few weeks)...in my experience it is way more beneficial to the end result if you work your long runs at a lower intensity.  as I previously mentioned, I am one of those who finds it very difficult to do this, I have to work hard to do it, but I also see the benefit of being able to hit the road for 10 miles the day after doing a 20+ miler.



2013-02-28 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?
Zero2Athlete - 2013-02-28 10:54 AM

I actually did plug in both what I've done and my goal into McMillan and, like you said, did come up with 9:00 being acceptable.  Why not slow down?  Because I'm too prideful. 

I wanted to (and did) generate discussion on other's knowledge and experience on the matter.  Thank you all for contributing...it was informative.  As for mixing pace and HR training...I really want to train by pace, but like to collect and ponder the HR data from those training sessions.  Sometimes during a run HR warns me that I'm not recovered or getting sick.  I also hope I can use HR correctively in races - that is to be able to adjust for various conditions or go "hey, you're pace is X but your HR is only Y ...you can pick it up, slacker!"

Plug in what's most appropriate for your current fitness.

Also, generally I've been able to work things best by running what turns out to be the middle to back half of the McMillan pace range. That's with taking in the bike & swim loads as well. Might be different if I was just running. I can work a progression run up faster, but have to plan it with the other loads more.

2013-03-02 9:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Am I running my long runs too fast?

The rule of thumb is that you should run your long runs at a pace where you could carry on a conversation.

Sorry but this the rule I cannot stand. I have been running for  3 years. Finished hM's  at 9min  per mile pace, 5 K's at 8.30 per mile pace.

I would have to walk at 14 min per mile pace to be able to carry a conversation.

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