General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter Rss Feed  
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2013-03-08 10:25 AM

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Subject: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

I remember hearing about this.  I think this cyclist is going to be made an example.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/03/sf-bicyclist-to-be-tried-for-gross-vehicular-manslaughter.html



2013-03-08 10:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

Court testimony indicated that [Bucchere] was going at least 30 mph and that he ran two red lights and a stop sign prior to going through the intersection where the collision occurred

Not exactly safe behavior.  Especially in downtown San francisco.

I just wish they would only charge people that kill cyclists with their vehicles with the same thing.



Edited by JZig 2013-03-08 10:33 AM
2013-03-08 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

isyphoto - 2013-03-08 11:25 AM  I think this cyclist is going to be made an example.

He did that for himself. I only have the information provided in the article, but if he killed somebody while riding recklessly and while ignoring the laws he's obliged to follow, he should be charged and tried accordingly.

2013-03-08 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

 

Good, from the article it sounds like he is getting what he deserves.

 

And yes, would be nice if similar charges were levied in car vs. cycle "accidents."

2013-03-08 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
Aarondb4 - 2013-03-08 11:57 AM

 

Good, from the article it sounds like he is getting what he deserves.

 

Which article? The one linked referenced stuff he may have done before the collision, but doesn't mention much about the actual incident.

"was going at least 30 mph and that he ran two red lights and a stop sign prior to going through the intersection where the collision occurred"

What was the speed limit at the collision scene? What was his speed at the time of the collision? How "prior" is prior? Did he run a red light or stop sign at the actual time of the collision? Did the pedestrian have the legal right of way (they don't always, especially in cities).

I'm not saying the guy is blameless, but is he guilty of vehicular manslaughter? I don't know. Certainly not from that one article.

2013-03-08 11:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
Question- when a person in a car hits a cyclist and kills them... do they get charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter?



2013-03-08 11:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
Not necessarily, but they should.

If a person causes the death of another while at fault, they should be held accountable surely?
2013-03-08 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
What amazes me is the comments on the article.  The pure hatred of bicyclists.
2013-03-08 12:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

KSH - 2013-03-08 9:47 AM Question- when a person in a car hits a cyclist and kills them... do they get charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter?

Depends on the facts. 

For example, if the cyclist runs a red light and gets hit by a car.  No

If a driver ran a red and hit a cyclist, I would hope yes.

2013-03-08 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

nickster - 2013-03-08 1:10 PM What amazes me is the comments on the article.  The pure hatred of bicyclists.

 

I did not read the comments - but as cyclists, we are usually our own worst enemy.  

2013-03-08 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

nickster - 2013-03-08 1:10 PM What amazes me is the comments on the article.  The pure hatred of bicyclists.

 

Agreed.  It makes me wonder if a day will come when it is completely unsafe to ride.



2013-03-08 12:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
Bodaggit - 2013-03-08 1:53 PM

nickster - 2013-03-08 1:10 PM What amazes me is the comments on the article.  The pure hatred of bicyclists.

 

Agreed.  It makes me wonder if a day will come when it is completely unsafe to ride.

I forwarded this article to another cyclist I work with.  See below:

Have you ever been in downtown San Francisco? The bicycles make better time than cars getting around town!! Thus causing drivers to be annoyed at the least. And if you are breaking the rules, then that is just adding insult to injury!!

 

2013-03-08 1:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

If I am not mistaken, this was the incident that got Strava sued.  I had read this was a "Strava Segment".  If that is the case and the prosecution can get the cyclists strava data, that could seal the deal. I do not see the "Peoples Republic of California" serving up had justice, assuming that the "facts" laid out in the article are accurate.

2013-03-08 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
JZig - 2013-03-08 10:32 AM

Court testimony indicated that [Bucchere] was going at least 30 mph and that he ran two red lights and a stop sign prior to going through the intersection where the collision occurred

Not exactly safe behavior.  Especially in downtown San francisco.

I just wish they would only charge people that kill cyclists with their vehicles with the same thing.

 

Agreed.  It doesn't sound like he was going crazy fast but running the red lights was stupid.  Who would have thought that hitting someone with a bike could kill them. 

2013-03-08 1:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
isyphoto - 2013-03-08 11:13 AM

If I am not mistaken, this was the incident that got Strava sued.  I had read this was a "Strava Segment".  If that is the case and the prosecution can get the cyclists strava data, that could seal the deal. I do not see the "Peoples Republic of California" serving up had justice, assuming that the "facts" laid out in the article are accurate.

The Strava suit arose from a cyclist trying to get a KOM and was killed.  His family sued.

Criminal juries in California usually convict

2013-03-08 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

Looks like Strava did play a role in this one. This article has an alleged post from the bike rider who essentially admits plowing through a busy crosswalk at the least populated place he could find:

http://sfist.com/2012/04/05/cyclist_who_struck_pedestrian_at_ca.php



2013-03-09 4:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
ChrisM - 2013-03-08 11:25 AM

Criminal juries in California usually convict

Not necessarily.  I was on a jury where the lady failed two sobriety tests after running a red light and the jury hung. :/  No one got hurt, but she was clearly DUI.  It was her THIRD jury trial.  SIGH. 

I don't buy the going too fast to stop argument off hand.  Cyclists share the roads with other cards and pedestrians,  we all have a duty to go at safe speeds and be mindful of safety of ourselves and others.  If you do cycle as fast as a car, you should make sure you have the same stopping power of car or be more conservative when you're on shared roads.  You see a light turn yellow, you know there are pedestrians (hello, downtown SF?) you should at least try to slow down instead of gun it, especially because when you're not a bike you might not be able to "gun it" enough to clear the whole intersection while it's yellow.  When you're driving a car you have to be aware of your proximity to others, you should be aware of it when you're on a bike, too. (Anti-kudos to drivers passing within 1 feet of cyclists on the road.)

Also, joking about your helmet laying down her life for you when the guy you hit is dead?  Not scoring points.

Accidents happen, and I'm not saying convict when someone gets killed, but from what I have read, this probably could have been prevented by the cyclist.  Of course, a jury will have to decide after reviewing all the evidence, and I hope he will get a fair trial.

That said, if a car kills a cyclist, another driver, or anyone else under similar circumstances, I would be all for trying them with gross vehicular manslaughter, too.  Just because we're on a bike doesn't make us more "fair game" than pedestrians or other drivers.

As for the Strava suit: Wow, talk about not taking into account personal responsibility.  Are there any warnings about open water swimming on this site?  Because BT is encouraging people to swim out in the ocean and post their training exploits, but how was I supposed to know swimming in the ocean is dangerous and no one at BT is putting out buoys or shark nets D: I'm just a grown adult, I don't know better than the big company (with deep pockets).  I could get accosted by a rogue stingray when I least suspect it!



Edited by ayabrea 2013-03-09 4:48 PM
2013-03-09 7:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
ayabrea - 2013-03-09 2:46 PM

As for the Strava suit: Wow, talk about not taking into account personal responsibility.  Are there any warnings about open water swimming on this site?  Because BT is encouraging people to swim out in the ocean and post their training exploits, but how was I supposed to know swimming in the ocean is dangerous and no one at BT is putting out buoys or shark nets D: I'm just a grown adult, I don't know better than the big company (with deep pockets).  I could get accosted by a rogue stingray when I least suspect it!

Well, arguably, the issue is that Strava wasn't a "passive" recorder but rather an "active" inciter.  When your KOM was surpassed, Strava sent you an email saying something inartful and stupid that basically called you a pansy if you didn't try to re-take the record. Since the tragedy, Strava has toned down the notification email -- but even so, as long as these records are done on open roads with other traffic, it makes much more sense to have climbing records than descending records. Flint (the guy who died, and whose parents have filed the suit against Strava) went wide into a turn, clipped a car driving in its own lane, and then crashed off the road where he died. I wouldn't want to have been the driver of that car. Strava subsequently marked the segment as hazardous, and has since modified its end user agreement.

2013-03-09 8:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
RChung - 2013-03-09 5:56 PM

Well, arguably, the issue is that Strava wasn't a "passive" recorder but rather an "active" inciter.  When your KOM was surpassed, Strava sent you an email saying something inartful and stupid that basically called you a pansy if you didn't try to re-take the record. Since the tragedy, Strava has toned down the notification email -- but even so, as long as these records are done on open roads with other traffic, it makes much more sense to have climbing records than descending records. Flint (the guy who died, and whose parents have filed the suit against Strava) went wide into a turn, clipped a car driving in its own lane, and then crashed off the road where he died. I wouldn't want to have been the driver of that car. Strava subsequently marked the segment as hazardous, and has since modified its end user agreement.

Point taken, BT doesn't send me emails calling me lazy if I decide to sleep in in a weekend, but I don't think someone insulting me, an adult, should be grounds for a lawsuit or me or my parents/heirs if I go do something stupid or risky and got injured/died because I felt like I had to protect my honor, especially if it's an email I can delete (or an account I can close.  I'm not that familiar with Strava, but this particular feature sounds kind of lame.)  I feel sorry for Flint, and the driver (yikes...), but accidents happen when you partake in a risky sport, especially if you decide you have to go downhill as fast as humanly possible.

I agree, uphill time record makes more sense for KOM.  Going downhill fast, good for races, less impressive than uphill climbs. 



Edited by ayabrea 2013-03-09 8:28 PM
2013-03-09 9:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter
ayabrea - 2013-03-09 6:28 PM

Point taken, BT doesn't send me emails calling me lazy if I decide to sleep in in a weekend, but I don't think someone insulting me, an adult, should be grounds for a lawsuit or me or my parents/heirs if I go do something stupid or risky and got injured/died because I felt like I had to protect my honor, especially if it's an email I can delete (or an account I can close.  I'm not that familiar with Strava, but this particular feature sounds kind of lame.)  I feel sorry for Flint, and the driver (yikes...), but accidents happen when you partake in a risky sport, especially if you decide you have to go downhill as fast as humanly possible.

An interesting side issue is that Flint died in 2010, and his parents didn't file the lawsuit until 2012, after the Bucchere-Hui incident in SF that is the subject of this thread. Flint's parents thought that Strava had been monitoring segments and marking and removing hazardous ones, but after this incident when it appeared Bucchere had been trying to gain back a KOM on this segment through SF, they decided to file. Have you seen the digitalepo.com site? That was set up to screw with Strava KOMs. Notice the fine print link down at the bottom of that page.

2013-03-10 7:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Cyclist charged with Gross Vehicular Manslaughter

Strava segment or no, this is pretty cut and dried. 

We'd all agree a car driver doing this deserves punishment. We're constantly asking for bikes to be treated like cars because we're subject to all the same rules. This clown disobeyed the rules of the road and killed someone - he's responsible for his own actions. 

I hope other cyclists learn it's not okay to disobey traffic laws. 

John



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