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2013-03-25 9:50 AM

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Subject: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

After too much time in the saddle, your mind can drift in all sorts of stupid ways. Saturday morning, I kept wondering why we use CO2 cartridges instead of N2 cartridges or compressed air cartridges for flat repairs? I really couldn't think of any technical reason.

All I could figure is that CO2 cartidges were already on the market for making soda water, and someone came up with the alternate bicycle use. Wild speculation on my part, but it's all I could think of.

Any ideas? Would there be a problem with compressed air or nitrogen in this application? Seems like both would be cheaper to collect than CO2.



2013-03-25 10:02 AM
in reply to: #4673217

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Science Nerd
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
CO2 was produced also for pellet and paintball guns, so those cartridges have been available for a long time.  I think it's because CO2 is cheaper and can be compressed more than air or nitrogen.  If I'm remembering correctly, the CO2 in the cartridges is actually liquid, but if they were compressed air or nitrogen they would still be gas and you wouldn't fit as much in the same size cartridge.
2013-03-25 10:27 AM
in reply to: #4673217


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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
You'd want something that has a boiling point of -50 to -100 F at atmosphere to be usable. Any lower and you'd need a stronger or bigger canister. Then, rule out gasses that are deemed harmful. Not many choices after that.
2013-03-25 11:06 AM
in reply to: #4673217

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Yep.  The CO2 under pressure is a liquid and it's volume expands tremendously as it boils when open it to fill our tires.  Nitrogen has to be kept stupid cold to keep it from being under really high pressures..and like you said - CO2 is already available so why spend $ to develop something that won't be superior?
2013-03-25 2:19 PM
in reply to: #4673217

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
There's also a possibility that molecule size is a factor, too. If you used helium (small molecule size) your tires would be lighter but they'd lose pressure a good deal faster.
2013-03-25 4:11 PM
in reply to: #4673761


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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

marvintpa - 2013-03-25 2:19 PM There's also a possibility that molecule size is a factor, too. If you used helium (small molecule size) your tires would be lighter but they'd lose pressure a good deal faster.

are you missing pink here? helium is lighter than co2 because it is a smaller molecule. meaning you would need more helium than co2 to fill the same space. with the final product weighing the same.

 

though you are correct on the loosing pressure part as it is easier for a smaller molecule to escape.



Edited by vanskater 2013-03-25 4:11 PM


2013-03-25 4:37 PM
in reply to: #4673217

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
pretty sure an N2 container would be like carrying around a small bomb.  the ones used for paintball are at a minimum 3k psi.  you would have to carry around a lot of extra stuff just to transfer the air from the canister to your tire as it wouldn't be able to have the thin puncture seal like the CO2 cartridges do.  plus they would have to get hydro tested periodically to make sure they aren't about to actually become a bomb, and you would probably have to pay and refill them after each use as the canisters would be pretty expensive.
2013-03-25 7:48 PM
in reply to: #4674052

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Carbon sequestration.  We all buy cartridges and never use them or lose them etc.  Its very good to have all that carbon packaged away instead of being in the environment.  its also why carbon bikes are such a good thing.
2013-03-25 8:07 PM
in reply to: #4674253

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Master
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
kingofbanff - 2013-03-25 5:48 PMCarbon sequestration.  We all buy cartridges and never use them or lose them etc.  Its very good to have all that carbon packaged away instead of being in the environment.  its also why carbon bikes are such a good thing.
Brilliant. Not only are all my carbon doo dads cool, they're good for the environment!
2013-03-26 8:20 AM
in reply to: #4673997

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
vanskater - 2013-03-25 5:11 PM

helium is lighter than co2 because it is a smaller molecule. meaning you would need more helium than co2 to fill the same space. with the final product weighing the same.

As a chemistry teacher, I cannot let this inaccuracy go by. The size of the molecule has nothing to do with how much volume & pressure the gas occupies. It's the basic premise of Avogadro's Law. Helium tires would be lighter. The tire will have a volume of about .85 L with either gas. Assuming a pressure of 760 kPa and a temperature of 32°C, the mass of CO2 inside the tire will be about 11.2 grams. Filling with helium would use only about 1 gram. It is true, though, that the helium would leak out much faster.

2013-03-26 8:26 AM
in reply to: #4674557

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Meerkat Surprise - 2013-03-26 9:20 AM
vanskater - 2013-03-25 5:11 PM

helium is lighter than co2 because it is a smaller molecule. meaning you would need more helium than co2 to fill the same space. with the final product weighing the same.

As a chemistry teacher, I cannot let this inaccuracy go by. The size of the molecule has nothing to do with how much volume & pressure the gas occupies. It's the basic premise of Avogadro's Law. Helium tires would be lighter. The tire will have a volume of about .85 L with either gas. Assuming a pressure of 760 kPa and a temperature of 32°C, the mass of CO2 inside the tire will be about 11.2 grams. Filling with helium would use only about 1 gram. It is true, though, that the helium would leak out much faster.

The nerd in my had to click on the link.  Apparently, I've been mixing up Avogadro's Law and Boyle's law for the last 15 years or so.  Doh!  I did know that PV=nRT

On a lighter note (ha, get it?) wouldn't helium gas also be flammable? 



2013-03-26 8:29 AM
in reply to: #4674574

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
jcnipper - 2013-03-26 9:26 AM
Meerkat Surprise - 2013-03-26 9:20 AM
vanskater - 2013-03-25 5:11 PM

helium is lighter than co2 because it is a smaller molecule. meaning you would need more helium than co2 to fill the same space. with the final product weighing the same.

As a chemistry teacher, I cannot let this inaccuracy go by. The size of the molecule has nothing to do with how much volume & pressure the gas occupies. It's the basic premise of Avogadro's Law. Helium tires would be lighter. The tire will have a volume of about .85 L with either gas. Assuming a pressure of 760 kPa and a temperature of 32°C, the mass of CO2 inside the tire will be about 11.2 grams. Filling with helium would use only about 1 gram. It is true, though, that the helium would leak out much faster.

The nerd in my had to click on the link.  Apparently, I've been mixing up Avogadro's Law and Boyle's law for the last 15 years or so.  Doh!  I did know that PV=nRT

On a lighter note (ha, get it?) wouldn't helium gas also be flammable? 

you're thinking hydrogen. helium is non flammable.

2013-03-26 8:33 AM
in reply to: #4674583

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Clempson - 2013-03-26 9:29 AM

you're thinking hydrogen. helium is non flammable.

Good call.  I always did hate Chemistry. 

2013-03-26 9:52 AM
in reply to: #4673217

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Expert
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Detroit, MI. Kinda.
Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
And CO2 does leak out faster than air (which is, of course, 79ish% nitrogen), but it's only supposed to get you back on the road.
2013-03-26 9:53 AM
in reply to: #4673287

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Master
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
I looking to custom fill my cartrages with propane. It has all the physical properties i need and as  bonus I'll really be able to burn rubber! Tongue out 
2013-03-26 9:59 AM
in reply to: #4673217


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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

Let's get the obligatory comedy response out the way.  It's CO2 because jelly wouldn't work!!

Secondly, why has no-one marketed NO2 for bikes??  Think of that final kick as you come into T2.



2013-03-26 10:10 AM
in reply to: #4673217


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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Freon would work unless you are a tree hugger...

Edited by Jeepinjoe 2013-03-26 10:13 AM
2013-03-26 10:21 AM
in reply to: #4673217

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

Reminds me of a joke:  How many engineers/chemists does it take to fix a bicycle tire?...

Seriously, you brainiaks amaze me.  Thanks.

2013-03-26 11:30 AM
in reply to: #4674802

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

Jeepinjoe - 2013-03-26 11:10 AM Freon would work unless you are a tree hugger...

 

Not such a good choice.  R-22 at 60 degrees/100 psi some would still be  a liquid, while at 80 degrees you're already over 140 psi.  Unless you're referring to r-12, which I think used to be lumped into DuPont's "Freon" class of refrigerants.  I don't have a chart handy for that one, but it's both really bad for the environment and banned anyway.  It was replaced mostly with r134a, which has an interesting strory:  The EPA says it's bad enough that it's illegal to vent into the atmosphere, but the FDA says it's ok for asthmatics to inhale as a propellant for their inhalers.  It's also the ingredient in cans of compressed air sold everywhere, yet I get a $10,000 fine if I let a little out of a refrigerator...

2013-03-26 12:31 PM
in reply to: #4673217


21

Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Yeah, r-12 is no good either. But if you're gonna try propane, you could also go with acetylene. I dare you to inflate to 100psi...And you better put a 'no smoking' sign in the transition area....
2013-03-26 1:14 PM
in reply to: #4673217

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Master
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

Hey Avagadro! whats your number?

Just reach me at 6.02 x10^23 anytime!

 



2013-03-26 1:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

So no one has taken a swing at that softball?

 

The cartridge is full of CO2 because an empty cartridge wouldn't be much help when it comes to inflating a tire.

2013-03-26 1:38 PM
in reply to: #4673217

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

Normal air is also not used because when you compress it, water develops (there is water vapor in the air naturally).  Think of it like this:  If you have an air compressor in your garage at home, there is the bleeder valve at the bottom of the tank.  Why?  It's not there to let the air out of the tank when you are not using it.  It is there to bleed the water out of the tank so your cylinder doesn't rust from the inside - out.  Compressed air, aside from the volume limits, is not a good choice because of this.

Just my two cents......

2013-03-26 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?
Meerkat Surprise - 2013-03-26 8:20 AM
vanskater - 2013-03-25 5:11 PM

helium is lighter than co2 because it is a smaller molecule. meaning you would need more helium than co2 to fill the same space. with the final product weighing the same.

As a chemistry teacher, I cannot let this inaccuracy go by. The size of the molecule has nothing to do with how much volume & pressure the gas occupies. It's the basic premise of Avogadro's Law. Helium tires would be lighter. The tire will have a volume of about .85 L with either gas. Assuming a pressure of 760 kPa and a temperature of 32°C, the mass of CO2 inside the tire will be about 11.2 grams. Filling with helium would use only about 1 gram. It is true, though, that the helium would leak out much faster.

Thank you for correcting this!

I remember when I first encountered Avogadro's Law in high school chemistry class I thought that it was the most astounding thing that I had ever heard.

2013-03-26 2:04 PM
in reply to: #4674755

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Subject: RE: Why is the cartridge full of CO2?

mgalanter - 2013-03-26 4:53 AM I looking to custom fill my cartrages with propane. It has all the physical properties i need and as  bonus I'll really be able to burn rubber! Tongue out 

 

actually there are products that fill your bike tires with propane, to my surprise.

If you check out Big Air canisters, they are loaded with propane, as it states on the label !!

big air

also it appears cyclists have used Nitrous Oxide to fill bike tires...but people might be laughing more in the race.

 

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