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2013-05-08 1:46 AM
in reply to: #4732504

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

triosaurus - 2013-05-07 5:59 PM Jason, thanks for the info. May I butt in with two more questions? At what effort are we looking to work on the long rides, (other than the tempo etc parts)? Long and zone-2 easy effort?Also, I often see 2x20- minute efforts suggested. What effort are these to be done?Thanks again

2x20's are generally a threshold type workout where you're targeting 95-100% of FTP.  That's usually part of a shorter ride of 60-75 minutes and is a really tough workout.

As far as the long rides, you can break it down in many different ways.  In general though you want to keep the effort up as much as possible.  Targeting as much Z3 and 4 as possible.  Of course you're going to have some recovery periods in between the sets, but it should never really be your goal to spend significant time in Z2 unless it's for a warm up or cool down.



2013-05-08 7:23 AM
in reply to: #4732545

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
tri808 - 2013-05-08 1:46 AM

triosaurus - 2013-05-07 5:59 PM Jason, thanks for the info. May I butt in with two more questions? At what effort are we looking to work on the long rides, (other than the tempo etc parts)? Long and zone-2 easy effort?Also, I often see 2x20- minute efforts suggested. What effort are these to be done?Thanks again

2x20's are generally a threshold type workout where you're targeting 95-100% of FTP.  That's usually part of a shorter ride of 60-75 minutes and is a really tough workout.

As far as the long rides, you can break it down in many different ways.  In general though you want to keep the effort up as much as possible.  Targeting as much Z3 and 4 as possible.  Of course you're going to have some recovery periods in between the sets, but it should never really be your goal to spend significant time in Z2 unless it's for a warm up or cool down.

The 2 x 20 is one reason I tend to not look at the longer riding as being specific to a sprint, but more with the mindset of cycling development. The total time spent for that workout is plenty for most everyone to complete the bike leg and is done working hard. When done well, it can be seen as "enough" for the duration of a sprint and can be quite helpful in pacing.

Tempo riding tends to be solidly in Z3 whereas sweet spot tends to be right on the edge Z3/Z4, going a bit over & under at times. Depending on intensity, one can get in 1-2 hrs at those efforts in a ride. Don't try to do the entire ride up there, not all the time at least, but work in blocks (ie large intervals). Say 15-30 min at a time. I've done these on the trainer to sufferfest vids and could do say a pair of 20 min and a pair of 30 min in the mid to high 80's as %FTP. Put that together with 20-30 min of warm-up to easy riding, 10-15 min in Z2 between each, 5-15 min easy riding afterward and there you have the 2.5-3 hrs of riding. A single pair is fine too, as all of that would be quite challenging to start out with. Look at your week and see what will work. It will take some experimenting as well.

Do know that the main purpose of this riding is to generate lots of aerobic stress. The power metric of TSS can help a lot with this. Provided one is regularly doing some workouts solidly in Z4 and some in Z5, then it's not as important *exactly* where the rest of this riding is done at, just so long as they get a lot of stress in somehow.

2013-05-08 6:49 PM
in reply to: #4731567

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

WayneMott - 2013-05-07 1:31 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

In response to the " just finishing" comments, I have no doubt that I'll be able to finish. My first tri is on May 18th so I'm not going to stress too much over how well I do, but I do feel like I have the potential to be a decent AGer in the future. I've been running since August, cycling since January, and only swimming (my weakest) for a month. I have 5k PR of 20:41, can hold 20 mph for a hilly 20 miler. My swim times are around 2:00/100.

That being said, I'd like to train for peak performance, not just to finish.

Are you doing the Pensacola spring by any chance?

2013-05-08 9:21 PM
in reply to: #4730481

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
Having done 6 sprints over the past 15 months or so and been top 10% in bike overall (and top 5% bike in AG) in almost every race, those long ride suggestions (2.5 hours for a sprint) are way longer than I've done.  I think that would be discouraging to someone reading and thinking you have to put that time in to be competitive on the bike in a sprint.  Generally bike alone I've been a max of about 1.5 hours.  Because of time constraints I actually think I've gotten more out of bike/run bricks which I do more frequently.  I'd suggest a one hour bike ride and then immediate 4-5 mile run 2x per week and then one longer bike 1x per week. Also, as opposed to measuring by time on the bike, getting more hills in seems to produce better results.  In every sprint I've done it is not being aggressive on the flat part which is the challenge, its climbing the hills I wish I did more of.
2013-05-08 11:07 PM
in reply to: #4734193

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

tpleff - 2013-05-08 9:21 PM Having done 6 sprints over the past 15 months or so and been top 10% in bike overall (and top 5% bike in AG) in almost every race, those long ride suggestions (2.5 hours for a sprint) are way longer than I've done.  I think that would be discouraging to someone reading and thinking you have to put that time in to be competitive on the bike in a sprint.  Generally bike alone I've been a max of about 1.5 hours.  Because of time constraints I actually think I've gotten more out of bike/run bricks which I do more frequently.  I'd suggest a one hour bike ride and then immediate 4-5 mile run 2x per week and then one longer bike 1x per week. Also, as opposed to measuring by time on the bike, getting more hills in seems to produce better results.  In every sprint I've done it is not being aggressive on the flat part which is the challenge, its climbing the hills I wish I did more of.

If you look a bit more closely you'll see explanations of how to work the bike rides, what the different types are for and how one may adjust things in the workouts to best fit their schedule and still get much of the benefits. I would suggest you read through things again, especially as you only listed time with no mention of intensity for these. That is a very important part of the discussion.

2013-05-09 12:01 AM
in reply to: #4733979

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
OrganizedMutiny - 2013-05-08 6:49 PM

WayneMott - 2013-05-07 1:31 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

In response to the " just finishing" comments, I have no doubt that I'll be able to finish. My first tri is on May 18th so I'm not going to stress too much over how well I do, but I do feel like I have the potential to be a decent AGer in the future. I've been running since August, cycling since January, and only swimming (my weakest) for a month. I have 5k PR of 20:41, can hold 20 mph for a hilly 20 miler. My swim times are around 2:00/100.

That being said, I'd like to train for peak performance, not just to finish.

Are you doing the Pensacola spring by any chance?

 

Pensacola Beach Triathlon on May 18th.



2013-05-09 7:32 AM
in reply to: #4734193

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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

tpleff - 2013-05-08 10:21 PM Having done 6 sprints over the past 15 months or so and been top 10% in bike overall (and top 5% bike in AG) in almost every race, those long ride suggestions (2.5 hours for a sprint) are way longer than I've done.  I think that would be discouraging to someone reading and thinking you have to put that time in to be competitive on the bike in a sprint.  Generally bike alone I've been a max of about 1.5 hours.  Because of time constraints I actually think I've gotten more out of bike/run bricks which I do more frequently.  I'd suggest a one hour bike ride and then immediate 4-5 mile run 2x per week and then one longer bike 1x per week. Also, as opposed to measuring by time on the bike, getting more hills in seems to produce better results.  In every sprint I've done it is not being aggressive on the flat part which is the challenge, its climbing the hills I wish I did more of.

 

I do not know how you ride as far as intensity goes, but will assume when you go uphill it is more intense than on the flats.

The highlighted part is basically you doing intervals. It is not about riding hills per say but more about the power you generate. I can do intervals on my rollers and it would be about the same as you riding hills. Yes riding hills will help you improve as this in effect is how you end up riding in Zones 4 and 5 if that is the way you look at it. You however do not need to be on a hill to do that and riding the flats but at higher intensity's will achieve the same thing. A watt is a watt and your body could care less if you produce 300w going up a mountain or if you produce 300w on a flat road. It just knows that you are asking it to produce 300w.

Long story short. It is not the hills that make you a better rider but more the different training intensity that the hill forces out of you.

Not sure if I made sense, but there is my 2 pennies.

2013-05-09 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

jmhpsu93 - 2013-05-07 11:04 AM I would say double the distance for your longest ride.  The point is create the training stress so that you can ride HARD the entire sprint race and still have something in the tank for the run.

 

^^^^^

THIS

2013-05-09 2:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

WayneMott - 2013-05-07 11:31 AM
Thanks for all the replies!

In response to the " just finishing" comments, I have no doubt that I'll be able to finish. My first tri is on May 18th so I'm not going to stress too much over how well I do, but I do feel like I have the potential to be a decent AGer in the future. I've been running since August, cycling since January, and only swimming (my weakest) for a month. I have 5k PR of 20:41, can hold 20 mph for a hilly 20 miler. My swim times are around 2:00/100.

That being said, I'd like to train for peak performance, not just to finish.

those are very good run and bike times.  your swim is very slow in comparison.  If you're asking about where you need to spend more training time to maximize your Sprint performace- uh... I see an obvious weak link. 

But as to the bike question- Think about it this way.  You want to come off a really hard 1hr bike ride, feeling fresh enough to rock a 5k run.  So- I like the comment above about rides being 50% longer than your race distance. 

2013-05-10 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
WayneMott - 2013-05-09 12:01 AM
OrganizedMutiny - 2013-05-08 6:49 PM

WayneMott - 2013-05-07 1:31 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

In response to the " just finishing" comments, I have no doubt that I'll be able to finish. My first tri is on May 18th so I'm not going to stress too much over how well I do, but I do feel like I have the potential to be a decent AGer in the future. I've been running since August, cycling since January, and only swimming (my weakest) for a month. I have 5k PR of 20:41, can hold 20 mph for a hilly 20 miler. My swim times are around 2:00/100.

That being said, I'd like to train for peak performance, not just to finish.

Are you doing the Pensacola spring by any chance?

 

Pensacola Beach Triathlon on May 18th.

 

Awesome, I did it last year and I'll be there again this year.

2013-05-10 2:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
Morey - I know my swim times are weak but they are improving steadily. The last 5 times I've swam, I've done a 300 yd "time trial" to track my progress. Times have been 7:45, 7:15, 7:05, 6:27, and 6:10. So by the end of the season, I expect my swim times to be a little more in like with my bike/run times. Swimming is definitely my main focus (3x wk) and if I have to skip a run or bike because it's the only day I can get to the pool, I don't hesitate.

OrganizedMutiny - what age group are you in? And how did you do last year? Also, how was the course?


2013-05-10 4:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

I'm in 25-29 AG. Last year it was my first tri ever and I finished in the middle of the pack. I'm also hoping to place in the AG but I need my run times to improve. I did 70.3 NOLA last month so i'm hoping a lot of my fitness will carry over cause I've been slacking haha.

The course was pretty good. The first 1/3 of the swim was only waist deep and I ran in the water instead of swam. The bike was flat out and back with a strong headwind on the ride out. the run was also flat with a 2 or 3 aid stations with a few turns.

2013-05-10 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training

I don't know about what a good distance is, but I DO know, that for me, longer was better...  Doing a 100 mile ride can't hurt...

One year when I was specifically training for my IM and doing all the distances for that, I was constantly setting PR's in all my shorter distance races without even specifically training for them.

I don't think you need to force yourself to get in 70-90 mile rides, but if you DID, it make you that much stronger (only caveat is that you are ready to do distances like that).  Over training is just as important to consider when you are preparing for a race.

2013-05-10 4:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Long ride for sprint training
I focus on sprints...I do 2 rides a week from 14 to 16 miles that are hilly and I ride as if I am in a race...high intensity...I then do 1 more ride at a slightly lower pace for around 26 miles. Then maybe, but not often a light indoor trainer spin...an easy zone 2ish spin to relax. I come in top 10% in each race on the bike. YMMV...literally.
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