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2013-05-08 8:28 AM

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Master
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Subject: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
I'm training for IMLP. This weekend, I finally got out on the road for my long ride ... they've been on the trainer to date, and this was only my 2nd road ride of the season. Granted, my bike training has not taken off as much as I'd like since the Sufferfest. And, granted, this was a big climb. But I was nonetheless disappointed. Here's the data:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/307659821

The climb really took a lot out of me for the return to home, so I just wasn't able to put out the effort I had hoped for. I'd like to make the best of the training time I have that remains, and I really don't want to be under-prepared for the hills of IMLP. I've already adjusted my goals and will actually be fine with a 7 hour ride if it sets me up to still go sub 4 on the run (my strength). But I do want to capitalize on the training I have left. I've decided to add hill repeats once per week ... and to do it for my brick workouts that usually occur on Wednesday mornings.

Here is today's:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/309584896

Your basic hill repeats. Up and down until I need to get off the bike.

Thoughts? Is this the best approach? Would I be better served to find a longer hill to get a more sustained climb? 


2013-05-08 8:53 AM
in reply to: #4732771

Master
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Various ways to go about training for the hills, but was wondering more about where your HR threshold is. Notice that that your HR on the big hill of the long ride crept up to about where you were hitting for the intervals. While you do want to get better on hills, this will also include learning the feel of it so that you can pace well on them.
2013-05-08 8:57 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

basically it's going to come down to your weight / power ratio. That's what climbing is (mainly) all about.

I'd break up the climbs... do repeats on shorter ones, but also longer sustained ones as well... learn how your body responds to both best while allowing you to continue riding "hard" once you are past them. You don't want to monster up a hill at 400+ watts 5 miles into your 112 mile race.

2013-05-08 9:23 AM
in reply to: #4732826

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Master
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Leegoocrap - 2013-05-08 9:57 AM

basically it's going to come down to your weight / power ratio. That's what climbing is (mainly) all about.

I'd break up the climbs... do repeats on shorter ones, but also longer sustained ones as well... learn how your body responds to both best while allowing you to continue riding "hard" once you are past them. You don't want to monster up a hill at 400+ watts 5 miles into your 112 mile race.

Yeah ... and I haven't worked either end of that equation well enough. I don't have power on my bike, but I train with FTP on TrainerRoad through the winter. For what it's worth, I've got that at 228 and feel it gives me solid workouts.

And I weigh 195. That'll creep below 190 for race day, but the equation is why I don't climb well.

I appreciate the input thus far! 

2013-05-08 9:58 AM
in reply to: #4732873

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Yeah, doing both will certainly help out with improving fitness. And in doing this keep working on pacing. Not that you should be riding IM pace (in fact it'd likely be better for much of training to be pushing the hills) but to learn how to control various levels of effort. Pacing will become easier with that. Can you use a metric like HR to help you out there as that should be available both on the trainer and outside? Your HR went up what looks like 25 bpm over that big climb, which is a very big jump. The quirky spike early on kind of hides this by shrinking down the rest of the graph, but not too surprised you tired out some for later.
2013-05-08 10:09 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
(Despite my sig line) in order of importance:

1. Lose weight if applicable

2. Climb more

3. Get a compact crank and correct cassette (at least 12-27)



2013-05-08 10:11 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Clearly, power to weight is the key.  But in your case, it sounds like pacing is also an issue, especially if you dont ride with power.

For a long climb, especially in an IM, there's really no trick other than being patient and judicious with your power so you dont burn your matches.  I think its a mental thing -- you're going slow and people are passing you but you need to resist the temptation to go faster.  One things you can do on a long climb is vary your position, since aerodyamics is typically not a factor.  Sitting up or even standing for short periods of time varies the division of labor between the quads/glutes/hamstrings so you give muscles a little break.

For training, I'd do both: on one day, short hill repeats to gain upper end power as well as the ability to recover from burning matches.  And, on a different day, a long climb followed by a brick run to see if you paced the climb well.

I think an overlooked place to gain time on a long climb is on the downhill.  Practice extreme aero -- turtle your head, tuck knees/elbows in, get low.

Good luck at IMLP!
2013-05-08 10:14 AM
in reply to: #4732771


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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
That's a good ride and a solid effort. I wouldn't feel bad at all. Your training is going fine - you just have to acclimate to those 4+hr rides since I don't think you're doing those on the trainer. YOu'll be surprised how fast your speed picks up on the long rides after a few weeks. I had the same experience, albeit with 55 mile outdoor rides with 5800ft climbing - first one was disappointing, painful and kind of sucked, but 4 weeks later, things are rocking. (I crushed my prior bike placement in a HIM in my recent race.)
2013-05-08 10:38 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

I think you've got a mixed bag to work with - there's definitely more power to be had, but managing your effort is equally as important. The comments about pride needing to vacate the premises in favor of a sustainable cadence and comfortable gearing are critical. No sense in having all that base buildup for a strong ride home if you cook yourself and burn all the matches half way. 

I'm currently training for a half, and the bike has 4 cat5 climbs, but otherwise is a very manageable course where I should be putting in a strong pace. The hills are done by mile 45, and the remainder is a gentle downhill where I can really put on speed. I'm more than willing to slow down and spin up the hills and drop, say, 1 minute on each hill for a total of 4 minutes in the hole for the ability to ride stronger for the other 2.5+ hours on the bike and be in good shape to run.

IMLP's climb is LONG. Hill repeats are certainly going to build power, so are sprints. Go back and do Blender from SF on the trainerroad, and do Revolver (as much as you can!). But I wouldn't hesitate for a moment in getting a cassette on there that gives you more options. No shame in riding 34-28 at all if it means you have a solid ride and a solid run. 

2013-05-08 11:09 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Master
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Ignore that HR spike at the beginning of the long ride. My max is nowhere near 209. It was a glitch that went away when I adjusted the monitor. And, yes, I do train with HR in the absence of power and have a solid understanding of where I need to keep it.  I didn't keep it there for that long climb on Saturday. The comments advising more prudence and less pride on the climbs are well taken.

Weight: I'll be at race weight without any concerns. I'm 6'2" and will be anywhere from 185-190 on race day. I just have a little extra on the paunch right now. 

Gearing: I'm riding a compact 11/28 on my roadie with clip-ons. I'm not the most flexible person in the world, but I can hold aero (roadie aero) for long periods. With the exception of climbing in aero ... I don't do that well. I tuck well and am comfortable maximizing the descents. I hit 46 on the Keane descent during last year's training ride.

So that leaves engine work. And, agreed, pacing work. I can hit my paces on the run without looking and would be able to tell you my pace within a few seconds and my HR within a few beats. I've just always been a runner. I need to get better in-tuned with that 6th sense on the bike. 

Great conversation and great advice. Much appreciated.
2013-05-08 11:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

Climbing improvement?  Lose weight.  The answer is almost always lose weight.  

Nice ride, though!  That looks like a bitchin' climb.  

Oh, and Strava-fy that ride.  That will give a much better indicator on that climb as I'm sure it is a segment recorded there.  GC just doesn't do that very well.



Edited by sand101 2013-05-08 11:18 AM


2013-05-08 11:53 AM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
2013-05-08 11:58 AM
in reply to: #4733161

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

BernardDogs - 2013-05-08 12:09 PM Ignore that HR spike at the beginning of the long ride. My max is nowhere near 209. It was a glitch that went away when I adjusted the monitor. And, yes, I do train with HR in the absence of power and have a solid understanding of where I need to keep it.  I didn't keep it there for that long climb on Saturday. The comments advising more prudence and less pride on the climbs are well taken.

Weight: I'll be at race weight without any concerns. I'm 6'2" and will be anywhere from 185-190 on race day. I just have a little extra on the paunch right now. 

Gearing: I'm riding a compact 11/28 on my roadie with clip-ons. I'm not the most flexible person in the world, but I can hold aero (roadie aero) for long periods. With the exception of climbing in aero ... I don't do that well. I tuck well and am comfortable maximizing the descents. I hit 46 on the Keane descent during last year's training ride.

So that leaves engine work. And, agreed, pacing work. I can hit my paces on the run without looking and would be able to tell you my pace within a few seconds and my HR within a few beats. I've just always been a runner. I need to get better in-tuned with that 6th sense on the bike. 

Great conversation and great advice. Much appreciated.

First off.  1500 feet of climbing in 5miles is quite significant, and yeah, it's going to beat you up because with that constant grade you're forced to push for most of the time you're climbing (wish I had a climb like that around here!).

You know your body size and weight - if you expect to be around 190lbs for race day, then the only thing that will get you up the hill faster is more power.  So working on the engine is key, and doing hill repeats is a great way to make you work at or above threshold for short periods, and learn some pacing.  Not trying to be tough on you, but an FTP of 228 for your size can certainly be improved.  Sounds like you have the right gearing, but if you really struggle, then you may want to consider a cassette with a 32 on the back.

I would not think about trying to climb in the aero position, unless it is a minimal grade.  Otherwise sit up during the climbs, you're not doing yourself any favors in aero while doing a proper climb. 

 

2013-05-08 12:06 PM
in reply to: #4733272

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
GoFaster - 2013-05-08 12:58 PM

BernardDogs - 2013-05-08 12:09 PM Ignore that HR spike at the beginning of the long ride. My max is nowhere near 209. It was a glitch that went away when I adjusted the monitor. And, yes, I do train with HR in the absence of power and have a solid understanding of where I need to keep it.  I didn't keep it there for that long climb on Saturday. The comments advising more prudence and less pride on the climbs are well taken.

Weight: I'll be at race weight without any concerns. I'm 6'2" and will be anywhere from 185-190 on race day. I just have a little extra on the paunch right now. 

Gearing: I'm riding a compact 11/28 on my roadie with clip-ons. I'm not the most flexible person in the world, but I can hold aero (roadie aero) for long periods. With the exception of climbing in aero ... I don't do that well. I tuck well and am comfortable maximizing the descents. I hit 46 on the Keane descent during last year's training ride.

So that leaves engine work. And, agreed, pacing work. I can hit my paces on the run without looking and would be able to tell you my pace within a few seconds and my HR within a few beats. I've just always been a runner. I need to get better in-tuned with that 6th sense on the bike. 

Great conversation and great advice. Much appreciated.

First off.  1500 feet of climbing in 5miles is quite significant, and yeah, it's going to beat you up because with that constant grade you're forced to push for most of the time you're climbing (wish I had a climb like that around here!).

You know your body size and weight - if you expect to be around 190lbs for race day, then the only thing that will get you up the hill faster is more power.  So working on the engine is key, and doing hill repeats is a great way to make you work at or above threshold for short periods, and learn some pacing.  Not trying to be tough on you, but an FTP of 228 for your size can certainly be improved.  Sounds like you have the right gearing, but if you really struggle, then you may want to consider a cassette with a 32 on the back.

I would not think about trying to climb in the aero position, unless it is a minimal grade.  Otherwise sit up during the climbs, you're not doing yourself any favors in aero while doing a proper climb. 

 



Absolutely. I've divorced myself from my leisure ride groups for the time prior to IMLP.  

2013-05-08 12:21 PM
in reply to: #4733060

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
fisherman76 - 2013-05-08 10:38 AM

IMLP's climb is LONG. Hill repeats are certainly going to build power, so are sprints. Go back and do Blender from SF on the trainerroad, and do Revolver (as much as you can!). But I wouldn't hesitate for a moment in getting a cassette on there that gives you more options. No shame in riding 34-28 at all if it means you have a solid ride and a solid run. 

With the really long climb, I would actually switch things around and do more of the bigger block ones. Like with 20 min or more. More sustained hard effort, and then how hard to do any of the attacks would depend on how much of a need there is on that hill. I haven't been, only know it from the profile mapping. Extra Shot: TLS is great for putting in a very consistent effort as there are no breaks or attacks. It just slowly ramps up a little for half an hour. Their other big ones have strong surges and attacks in them. The Wretched has the 35 minutes straight with 3 "hills" and no truly easy spots. Still do other ones like Angels or the ones mentioned to help work on pushing harder as well.

2013-05-08 12:50 PM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
The climbing at LP is mostly not very difficult.  The bulk of it is long and gradual.  And your riding there won't differ much from your riding on the flats.  You'll just be moving slower thanks to gravity.  As others noted, have enough gears so that you can continue pedalling 'normally' as much as possible (i.e., steady cadence and power application) while remaining in aero for most of it.  Arrive as lean as is practical for you.  Otherwise, preparation does not have to differ very much versus other IMs.  Take advantage of riding hills (because they generally do force you to work harder), but repeats are only necessary if you are looking to use the ride as an interval session.  In which case, the length of hill should be chose for the kind of interval you are targeting.  Mostly, just ride lots and ride as hard as you can within the constraints of the rest of your training.


2013-05-08 1:40 PM
in reply to: #4732771

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

Looking closer, that's a legit climb.  If this is your second ride off the trainer, I would expect it to hurt quite a bit.  

I agree that if 1-3 are taken care of, then pacing is the 4th.  A note on pacing.  I have a similar profile ride I do  http://app.strava.com/activities/47525087   Not the same amount of climbing, but sort of the same profile.  I just started riding with power outside, and rode that two weekends in a row. The first was the first ride with the PM, and I turned myself inside out seeing how fast I could get up the climb and what the power was.  I was destroyed at the top.  Metrics were 5.1 miles, 22:00, Ave HR 167, NP 312w,

The next weekend at my coach's urging   I rode up the exact same climb but at NP 282 (a little higher than planned).  Time was 23:55, Ave HR 150.  I felt absolutely fine at the top.

I lost less than 2:00 and gained 17 beats per minute dropping the pace 40W, down to somewhere around my FTP.  You could do the same with just heartrate. 



Edited by ChrisM 2013-05-08 1:40 PM
2013-05-08 2:59 PM
in reply to: #4733394

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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

JohnnyKay - 2013-05-08 7:50 AM The climbing at LP is mostly not very difficult.  The bulk of it is long and gradual.  And your riding there won't differ much from your riding on the flats.  You'll just be moving slower thanks to gravity.  As others noted, have enough gears so that you can continue pedalling 'normally' as much as possible (i.e., steady cadence and power application) while remaining in aero for most of it.  Arrive as lean as is practical for you.  Otherwise, preparation does not have to differ very much versus other IMs.  Take advantage of riding hills (because they generally do force you to work harder), but repeats are only necessary if you are looking to use the ride as an interval session.  In which case, the length of hill should be chose for the kind of interval you are targeting.  Mostly, just ride lots and ride as hard as you can within the constraints of the rest of your training.

This was my thinking at first glance.  I have no idea what the climbs are like at LP, but unless it requires significant time in your easiest gear, at a lower cadence then you would normally ride, then you don't "need" specific hill work training.  Riding hard and steady on the flats (or on the trainer) will give you the same benefits of increasing your power. 

OTOH, if the course is like Savageman, where you're constantly going to be spiking your power, in your easiest gear, at a lower than preferred cadence just to avoid tipping over, then you want to get some hill training in.

Naturally, what may be an easy climb for some people, may be a difficult climb for others, so I guess you have to make the determination for yourself whether or not the LP climbs will require you to actually use climbing skills (such as lower cadence, higher power riding).  Then you can decide if you actually need hill training.

2013-05-08 6:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

Just a thought- but I saw this about your long ride:

Avg Bike Cadence:62 rpm

That's pretty slow. Even with all the climbing you did.   you're a real 'masher'.  If it's that you ran out of gears and need a compact and/or a bigger cassette- get it.  That's an easy fix. 

2013-05-08 6:55 PM
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2013-05-08 6:58 PM
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2013-05-08 7:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

Fred D - 2013-05-08 6:58 PM
JohnnyKay - 2013-05-08 1:50 PMThe climbing at LP is mostly not very difficult.  The bulk of it is long and gradual.  And your riding there won't differ much from your riding on the flats.  You'll just be moving slower thanks to gravity.  As others noted, have enough gears so that you can continue pedalling 'normally' as much as possible (i.e., steady cadence and power application) while remaining in aero for most of it.  Arrive as lean as is practical for you.  Otherwise, preparation does not have to differ very much versus other IMs.  Take advantage of riding hills (because they generally do force you to work harder), but repeats are only necessary if you are looking to use the ride as an interval session.  In which case, the length of hill should be chose for the kind of interval you are targeting.  Mostly, just ride lots and ride as hard as you can within the constraints of the rest of your training.
. +1. Having ridden LP many times I agree its long steady climbs at LP with poor road surfaces. Riding hills will not specifically prep you for placid, rather riding lots and riding with as much intensity as your plan allows is the key.

With several comments on the type of hill now, another + to not worrying about so much hill specific work and just train in a way that you'll improve in general. But that's probably still going to be hills. I did just fine on the 5 mile hill at Quassy even though I hadn't gone that far uphill at all once.



Edited by brigby1 2013-05-08 7:09 PM
2013-05-08 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?
Fred D - 2013-05-08 6:55 PM
morey000 - 2013-05-08 7:16 PM

Just a thought- but I saw this about your long ride:

Avg Bike Cadence:62 rpm

That's pretty slow. Even with all the climbing you did.   you're a real 'masher'.  If it's that you ran out of gears and need a compact and/or a bigger cassette- get it.  That's an easy fix. 

. He's riding a compact with an 11-28 so short of getting a triple or getting SRAM apex I think he's already geared pretty well. As for the cadence, I think that depends. I'm a reasonably good climber and I suspect I have a cadence in the low 60s on climbs. It isn't for a lack of gears, but just what I prefer to do.

My cadence may also drop noticeably on the uphills. And this may also include coasting values of 0 on the downhills, depending on how logic is set up. Lots up uphill tends to mean lots of downhill as well, both lowering the average.

Fyi, all levels of 10 speed SRAM rear derailleurs have a WiFli version available that can handle a 32T, not just Apex. Except, perhaps, the new Force 22 and RED 22, the 11 speed sets.

2013-05-08 7:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing Improvement: Best Approach?

Many folks ride hills with to much power at the bottom and fade as they go along. It takes work and practice to learn to pace hills correctly. IMLP has long hills that go on for many miles. I rode LP course 4-5 times before I raced it and I had power.  I found that I got better at even pacing power with practice.

If you have long hills near you ride them in your long rides. Look at the LP course and see how the  course does climb, descent, flats, climb, rolling, climb and repeat. If you can find terrain near you that is similar it would be good to ride.

For me long hills was better preparation than short hill repeats.

Riding hills will help you learn to pace hills better.

Reality is at a given power/weight ratio, you need xx gearing to get up at a certain cadence. If you are in your easiest gear, dropping cadence is your only option.

You will get stronger as you ride more outside.

2013-05-08 7:51 PM
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