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2013-05-14 9:02 AM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
There has been a lot of good info thrown out there. I think I will keep scouring Craigslist in search of a good deal on a zipp/hed/other front wheel while at the same time continuing to save in case I don't find anything. Worst case I'll save for a while and try to find a flo.... Another question, how deep should I look at going to for the front? I know several will say its all in what I'm looking to get out of it and that answer is the most speed for the least amount of money. Any big differences between 40mm/60mm/80mm/100mm depth? I know typically the deeper you go the faster the wheel is but also the more expensive they are. So what is a good happy medium? And what are the rules on how deep you can go on the front? Thanks for all the info thus far!!!


2013-05-14 9:07 AM
in reply to: #4739870

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

Lee,

Just curious, why would you avoid spinergy?  I've read they are made in mexico and some of the older models had a high failure rate.

2013-05-14 9:16 AM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
^my guess would be because they got a bad rap early on from having catastrophic failures. Even if they fixed the problems in the later models people arent going to trust a company that have had wheels that may explode while your bombing a hill at 35-40mph. Which is unfortunate because I love the way the spinergy rev x's look. However I'm not sure of how good the aerodynamics of the wheel actually are though?

Edited by fubar44 2013-05-14 9:18 AM
2013-05-14 9:29 AM
in reply to: #4741545

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

Newer spinergy (spoked) wheels are fine. RevX's had some scary fails when they were new (almost 20 years ago) so I don't imagine the time has helped them. It didn't help that they weren't fast either.

Basically when it comes to "large" spoked wheels, odd number of spokes > even number of spokes... and of those, only the original DuPont H3 and the Mavic 5 spoke have ever been true successes (to my knowledge)

2013-05-14 9:30 AM
in reply to: #4741545

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
fubar44 - 2013-05-14 7:16 AM

^my guess would be because they got a bad rap early on from having catastrophic failures. Even if they fixed the problems in the later models people arent going to trust a company that have had wheels that may explode while your bombing a hill at 35-40mph. Which is unfortunate because I love the way the spinergy rev x's look. However I'm not sure of how good the aerodynamics of the wheel actually are though?


I'd do a wheelcover on the rear for now and keep watching ST, BT, and Craigslist for a front wheel.

The Rev X are an old design, they are not very aero and they are heavy compared to current designs. My wife had a set she bought used before we meet. One spoke started to come apart a little bit at an edge but the spoke to hub connection was strong. I "fixed" the edge issue with some JB Weld and black Sharpie. Once we replaced them with newer race wheels I used to ride them on my winter training bike and beat the snot out of them (I'm ~190lbs give or take). Never had a problem with them. I sold them and bought a set of wheels with disc hubs as I was grinding thru the braking surface during the winter and wanted to move my winter bike over to disc brakes to avoid rebuilding rims.
2013-05-14 9:34 AM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
As to what depth... for most triathletes a Jet6 / 404 depth wheel will be faster than something deeper.


2013-05-14 10:10 AM
in reply to: #4741596

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
Leegoocrap - 2013-05-14 10:34 AMAs to what depth... for most triathletes a Jet6 / 404 depth wheel will be faster than something deeper.
Can you explain why that is?
2013-05-14 10:18 AM
in reply to: #4741704

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
fubar44 - 2013-05-14 12:10 PM

Can you explain why that is?




If you look at the above graph, you'll see that at about 10 degress of yaw, the deeper wheel has stalled and by 12.5 degrees of yaw, the drag of the deeper (90mm) wheel is more than the drag of the shallower wheel (60mm).

Since the slower a rider is, the larger yaw angles they will see on race day, there will be a tipping point where the 90mm will actually become slower than the 60mm wheel. For most triathletes, the 60mm is a great wheel if one can only have one front option; if you can have more than one then it may make sense to have the 90mm for very calm days and the 60mm for those with more wind. And a disc rear of course.

Shane
2013-05-14 10:27 AM
in reply to: #4741312

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
msteiner - 2013-05-14 8:14 AM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 6:04 AM
msteiner - 2013-05-13 11:40 PM

 

lakelandsledder - 2013-05-13 9:44 PM They look awesome but as others said, you're better off waiting.  I've toyed with the idea myself and although I think the open mold frames are pretty nice, the wheels in this price on Ebay are usually the older "V" design.  I just got the aerojacket for my rear and still will run my trusty and light weight Vuelta Corsa Lites until I can get a flo for the front.  

Based on what data?  Does anyone have actual proof that a used front better than an open mold wheel?  As far as I know, no wind tunnel data is present for these.

....What????

What part of that question are you struggling with? You're telling me to not speak generalizations about wheels and then make a claim about a wheel you have zero data on. I at least have experience and workout data that shows that my wheelset is faster than staying at stock.

I actually didn't make any claims. Cool  I think you were responding to another poster.  And don't get too excited dude.  I am sincerely wondering what you meant in that sentence.  Read it again...what do you mean by a used front? 

I'm glad you have workout data that proves your wheelset is faster than staying at stock....(even though we don't know what either wheel is that you're talking about....your stock wheel nor the wheel you're currently running).  This is the best way to prove and validate any purchase you make.  One of the best feelings is to be able to get some real life data that shows you got faster without having to add in more training!!  I love it! 

To the OP...Interesting question about rim depth.  I think it is smart in going for something in the middle.  Going middle range will for the most part reduce your price as well (you still have to wait for a good deal though).  The mid-depth wheels are more versatile if they are the only wheel you are going to run.  I run an 808 because I'm a bigger guy and don't mind the bike being a bit squirrely in the cross-winds.  If I was lighter and I wanted to just buy one wheel, I may go with a 60mm deep rim.  If you're really light....it's better to feel powerful, in control and in aero than fighting with the bike, right?  It's tough to say without riding them of course.  Do you have any friends who may let you borrow a wheel for an afternoon just to try out?

2013-05-14 10:30 AM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
Shane, what speed did you run that at?
2013-05-14 10:50 AM
in reply to: #4741759

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 12:30 PM

Shane, what speed did you run that at?


My field testing or are you asking about the graph from Hed?

Shane


2013-05-14 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 8:18 AM

fubar44 - 2013-05-14 12:10 PM

Can you explain why that is?




If you look at the above graph, you'll see that at about 10 degress of yaw, the deeper wheel has stalled and by 12.5 degrees of yaw, the drag of the deeper (90mm) wheel is more than the drag of the shallower wheel (60mm).

Since the slower a rider is, the larger yaw angles they will see on race day, there will be a tipping point where the 90mm will actually become slower than the 60mm wheel. For most triathletes, the 60mm is a great wheel if one can only have one front option; if you can have more than one then it may make sense to have the 90mm for very calm days and the 60mm for those with more wind. And a disc rear of course.

Shane


This is why I found a new Zipp 1080 tubular for 1/2 price shipped... Folks are finding that the deep wheel stalls for them and Triathletes are moving away from tubulars. I use it on the track where I'll not get the stalling and I want a tubular.
2013-05-14 11:27 AM
in reply to: #4741821

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 11:50 AM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 12:30 PM Shane, what speed did you run that at?
My field testing or are you asking about the graph from Hed? Shane

The graph from HED.

2013-05-14 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 1:27 PM

The graph from HED.



I believe that it is based from typical testing in a low speed wind tunnel, so probably 30mph.

Shane
2013-05-14 12:43 PM
in reply to: #4741295

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
Dan-L - 2013-05-14 8:01 AM

I visited China last year and spent two weeks getting underneath the cultural, social and economic issues.  I also spent a day visiting a factory that makes wheels.  In my opinion and based on my visit, there is no greater risk of manufacturing defect from these wheels made in China than those either made in China and sold via a branded reseller in the West or those manufactured in the West.  On the back of that visit I bought three pairs of wheels and have done over 1k miles on one set of 38mm clinchers and find them absolutely fine.

If they do turn up and have an issue, customer service is nothing like the levels we would normally expect and although companies don't intend to give poor after sales service, they're not staffed for it and response times, process and mistrust levels are high - as in, in the same way that Western consumers often reflexively make the accusations that have been made elsewhere on this thread, an equivalent website in China would reflexively make similar accusations about Western consumers with false complaints trying to get an extra set of free wheels or an unwarranted refund.

Reasonable manufacturing rates are 98% in terms of quality control - if you're one of the 2% it may be a pain but if you're one of the 98% I think it's a good purchase.

Just my opinion but at least based on a bit of research.

Keep in mind what happened to FLO when they initially started up.  They lost all their money because of shoddy manufacturing on the mainland that they weren't willing to accept - and I thought they'd done quite a bit of research.  I believe the new operation is in Taiwan.

This isn't intended to be a blanket statement, but just a different reference point.

2013-05-14 1:09 PM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
Here is another thing I was thinking about during my search. What spoke count do I need for my front? I'm a muscular 240lbs right now (down 25lbs from 5 months ago, and I keep dropping every week). I have found a few good deals different places but all of those rims have pretty low spoke count, 16 to 20. Right now I'm running a 32 spoke mavic open pro. How few can I run run safely? I also assume that the carbon gives extra stability over a lower count box rim.

Edited by fubar44 2013-05-14 1:09 PM


2013-05-14 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 12:28 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 1:27 PM The graph from HED.
I believe that it is based from typical testing in a low speed wind tunnel, so probably 30mph. Shane

That's kind of what I figured.  I would love to see the graph at a more realistic speed like 22-23 mph.

2013-05-14 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

fubar44 - 2013-05-14 2:09 PM Here is another thing I was thinking about during my search. What spoke count do I need for my front? I'm a muscular 240lbs right now (down 25lbs from 5 months ago, and I keep dropping every week). I have found a few good deals different places but all of those rims have pretty low spoke count, 16 to 20. Right now I'm running a 32 spoke mavic open pro. How few can I run run safely? I also assume that the carbon gives extra stability over a lower count box rim.

Definitely do not buy those wheels you were initially looking at.  You are going to want a clydesdale build in almost any wheel that you buy.  The carbon does not necessarily add strength for a lower spoke wheel over an aluminum or box rim with the same spoke count.  Spoke material, build quality, and quantity all play a part.

2013-05-14 2:07 PM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

^If I need a custom built Clydesdale rim does that pretty much mean I am going to have to save and buy a new one or is there any other cheaper options/rims like a Hed 3 or similar that are "bomb proof" enough to work (although a previous poster discouraged a hed 3)? I know that the words custom built and very expensive are often synonymous

Please don't think I am just cheap, I am still in college so money is tight at the moment but I do want to upgrade my bike as much as possible with the funds that I have saved. I already spend most of what I have saved on the bike so now I'm trying to do small upgrades with what is left. I'm sure many here on BT have been here and done this before and so you understand where I'm coming from when I say that I'm trying to upgrade on a budget.

PS thanks to all who have chimed in already!



Edited by fubar44 2013-05-14 2:16 PM
2013-05-14 2:15 PM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 8:51 AM

gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 12:28 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 1:27 PM The graph from HED.
I believe that it is based from typical testing in a low speed wind tunnel, so probably 30mph. Shane

That's kind of what I figured.  I would love to see the graph at a more realistic speed like 22-23 mph.

30 mph isn't realistic?

2013-05-14 2:48 PM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 3:51 PM

gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 12:28 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 1:27 PM The graph from HED.
I believe that it is based from typical testing in a low speed wind tunnel, so probably 30mph. Shane

That's kind of what I figured.  I would love to see the graph at a more realistic speed like 22-23 mph.



That's why the rule of thumb (from Andrew Coggan I believe) is very useful:

5g of drag at 30mph is worth about .5s/km saved at race speed

The actual drag reduction will be different at race speed but it scales nicely so the rule of thumb will give you a good idea of actual time saved.

Shane


2013-05-15 10:02 AM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
fubar44 - 2013-05-14 3:07 PM

^If I need a custom built Clydesdale rim does that pretty much mean I am going to have to save and buy a new one or is there any other cheaper options/rims like a Hed 3 or similar that are "bomb proof" enough to work (although a previous poster discouraged a hed 3)? I know that the words custom built and very expensive are often synonymous

Please don't think I am just cheap, I am still in college so money is tight at the moment but I do want to upgrade my bike as much as possible with the funds that I have saved. I already spend most of what I have saved on the bike so now I'm trying to do small upgrades with what is left. I'm sure many here on BT have been here and done this before and so you understand where I'm coming from when I say that I'm trying to upgrade on a budget.

PS thanks to all who have chimed in already!

Nope, sorry for the confusion.  Lots of companies make a clydesdale build.  You can buy a zipp 404 clydesdale for example.  It's just "beefed up" for lack of a better term.

2013-05-15 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
tri808 - 2013-05-14 3:15 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 8:51 AM

gsmacleod - 2013-05-14 12:28 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2013-05-14 1:27 PM The graph from HED.
I believe that it is based from typical testing in a low speed wind tunnel, so probably 30mph. Shane

That's kind of what I figured.  I would love to see the graph at a more realistic speed like 22-23 mph.

30 mph isn't realistic?

Not with that attitude :D

2013-05-15 10:33 AM
in reply to: #4739732

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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?

If you are looking for a cheap aero carbon front wheel, I think you you found it. If you approach it with low expectations you won't be disappointed. I have a similar wheel and paid slightly more since it was branded by an American Company and I am fairly impressed. The wheel is light and true.

The reality is no wheel is going to make you much faster. You can get a cheap one now and when you get your degree and are making 6 figures you can splurge and get Zipps

2013-05-15 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: What front wheel to choose?
fubar44 - 2013-05-14 12:07 PM

^If I need a custom built Clydesdale rim does that pretty much mean I am going to have to save and buy a new one or is there any other cheaper options/rims like a Hed 3 or similar that are "bomb proof" enough to work (although a previous poster discouraged a hed 3)? I know that the words custom built and very expensive are often synonymous

Please don't think I am just cheap, I am still in college so money is tight at the moment but I do want to upgrade my bike as much as possible with the funds that I have saved. I already spend most of what I have saved on the bike so now I'm trying to do small upgrades with what is left. I'm sure many here on BT have been here and done this before and so you understand where I'm coming from when I say that I'm trying to upgrade on a budget.

PS thanks to all who have chimed in already!

Considering you're a big guy, and your budget, I'd say go for the H3. What Leegoocrap said is valid but that's fine tuning stuff. An H3 will a) still be an improvement, b) is bombproof for your size, c) looks good and d) holds its resale value if you buy a used one.

Just one guy's opinion of course.
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