General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason? Rss Feed  
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2013-05-23 11:26 AM

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Subject: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
A few weeks back I went to a LBS to ask about fitting and I explained what I am looking for in a Tri-bike.
DI2 with areo and horn shifting was a MST have.

The fitter recommended to get a used Cervelo P2C from ebay and then we go from there as he said that fitting me (6'6" (36" inseam measured)) limits the choices of bikes. He also offerd a deal on DI2 and some wheels.

Yesterday I went back to the store to drop of the frame and pick the other components and then I was told that:
- they can't run the DI2 cables internally
- the quoted price was for the manual shifting
- they would build up the bike first and then we would do the fit on it (I thoug you do the fit on a Retul Move first and then pick frame and cockpit based on that)

Now I am really upset (could barely sleep) because it seems that it might cost me more than $5k to get this bike done.
They way I see it, for $6k I can get a brand new Norcom Straight with DI2, versus if I continue this road I end up with a bike that has DI2, used wheels with a SL+ powertab and 5year old P2C frame.

I have not made a commitment on anything as I am waiting for a quote from the shop, but it was indicated yesterday that the DI2 and wheels (plus cockpit & saddle) will run more than $4k (and then I am out $1k for the frame already).

Is the 2008 P2C frame as good as the new 2013 NorcomStraight frame?
Should I pick-up my frame and then just try to resell and cut my losses?
Is it normal to pick frame and cockpit first and then start the fit process?
Am I just beeing a diva?


2013-05-23 11:43 AM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
I dont' think you are being a diva or drama queen.

I hope they will make good on what they told you.

Consider the options and make a decision.

Knowing your ideal fit coordinates is best way to buy any bike. Frame is fixed, but aerobars and basebars make a big difference in your fit. I would recommend the fit, then build the bike around that.

Talk with the fitter again if you have been talking to the shop people. Some shop folks don't put much into fit and are a bit ignorant.
2013-05-23 11:46 AM
in reply to: KathyG

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Problem is the fitter is the owner and he was the one that said yesterday to just pick some aero bars and cockpit and crnaks and we go from there.
He then handed me off to the mechanics and they asked "What do you want" and I said "What ever is the best fit"...
No progress there really...

The owner/fitter was also the one that recommended the frame and missed/forgott/missunderstood that DI2 was a MUST have for me.
2013-05-23 11:50 AM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
#1 - DI2 can be run internally. However, most shops hate doing it because of the labor involved... it's not that hard, but takes a while... have a look at this thread (sorry if I can't post outside threads) http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4494984;

#2 - Why DI2 on a bike that was never intended on it? Did you fit a QR CD0.1? You could've had that bike WITH DI2 for about 5k. Yeah yeah yeah, it's not a cervelo... but really now.

#3 - Talk to the FITTER, not shop employees. No offense to the shop employees out there, but most are clueless.

This is why I usually avoid LBS. In fact, I don't even have one I go to anymore. I have a fitter, and do all the maintenance work myself.

2013-05-23 11:58 AM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?

Wow. So, you know, in my book, a tri fit STARTS with the bars. How one could pick the frame and then just throw whatever bars catch your fancy and make it fit... Just wow. I'd be looking elsewhere.

How do you even know that this frame is the right choice? Not trying to be a downer, but it seems backwards (even if it IS the way most people end up getting a bike). Do you already know your contact point coordinates?

2013-05-23 12:00 PM
in reply to: frozensurfer

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by frozensurfer

#1 - DI2 can be run internally. However, most shops hate doing it because of the labor involved... it's not that hard, but takes a while... have a look at this thread (sorry if I can't post outside threads) http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4494984;

Thanks I saw that last night as well (which aggrevated me even more

Originally posted by frozensurfer
#2 - Why DI2 on a bike that was never intended on it? Did you fit a QR CD0.1? You could've had that bike WITH DI2 for about 5k. Yeah yeah yeah, it's not a cervelo... but really now.


I don't even like cervelo, I never really wanted a cervelo. I only bought it because the fitter recommended it and it appeared I would get a DI2 bike for under $5k this way.

Originally posted by frozensurfer
#3 - Talk to the FITTER, not shop employees. No offense to the shop employees out there, but most are clueless.

The FITTER is the SHOP OWNER and that is who I talked to/ who handed me off to his employees.


2013-05-23 12:03 PM
in reply to: briderdt

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by briderdt

Wow. So, you know, in my book, a tri fit STARTS with the bars. How one could pick the frame and then just throw whatever bars catch your fancy and make it fit... Just wow. I'd be looking elsewhere.

How do you even know that this frame is the right choice? Not trying to be a downer, but it seems backwards (even if it IS the way most people end up getting a bike). Do you already know your contact point coordinates?



The fitter is supposed to be REALLY good.
And I thought fit starts with measurements and a possible Retul fit.
When he recommende the frame and said we will then do a "rough fit" from there I was fine as I believe in his expertise.
But when last night became (driving there for 1 hour, waiting 1 hour) to "Hey work with my guys to jsut pick some parts and then we do the fit afterwards" (plus the whole cost issue)... I was a bit confused.
2013-05-23 12:12 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Honestly I think you'd be better off with a bike that was originally designed for Di2. If I am not mistaken (I have a 2012 P2) the only way to route Di2 would be to re-drill the frame. Something that Cervelo really frowns upon.

Also I would NOT invest that kind of money into a carbon bike where the frame is not warrantied. Cervelo has a fantastic replacement policy - but you have to be the original owner.

For $6k I think you have a lot more choices and shouldn't compromise. Although a new P5 with Di2 is $10k, so maybe there is SOME compromise.
2013-05-23 12:15 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
I have been at this for about a year but was very lucky to meet one of the best fitters in the area at a bike swap before I bought my bike. It was slow so he let me pick his brain for a while (he also got my business). If I have learned nothing else from this site, when it comes to your ride, the three most important things are FIT, FIT and FIT.

It sees your LBS sent you at this backwards. Yes a good fitter can make any ride better but better is not best and in some cases not even good. Sometimes there is only so much you can do with socks on a rooster!

Find a good fitter. All I had to do was ask around and the same few names will keep coming up. Then go from there.

2013-05-23 12:19 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by Stuartap

Find a good fitter. All I had to do was ask around and the same few names will keep coming up. Then go from there.


This is the issue here, this guy is supposed to be one of the best fitters in this area, which is the only reason I started down this path.
2013-05-23 12:22 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?

I'll admit that my ideas on fit don't conform with most fit protocols (which I believe are based on tweaking an existing bike to a person rather than finding a fit first, regardless of what they're telling you). I've seen HUGE changes in comfort based on a change in bars, which should have been the FIRST thing to select. Bars (pad width, extension width and angle, wrist angle) make a big determination in power, upper body comfort) first, then neck and shoulder flexibility will determine saddle-to-pad drop, and then hip angle determined by power numbers tell you what the seat tube angle should be.

Dan Empfield himself said that he figured out a long time ago that a tri bike needs to be designed from the aero bars backwards, but then the fit protocols all start from the back of the bike... How do you reconcile that contradiction? You don't. Road bike fits start from the back, but tri bike fits start from the front.

Anyway... I'm off a tangent here.

Measurements are just a factor, but not even necessary to get a pre-fit done (given the above method). Making assumptions about how you fit on a bike (whether if bears any resemblance to reality or not) is how you arrive at a "frame size" based on measurements and then start making compromises to get it to "fit".



Edited by briderdt 2013-05-23 12:25 PM


2013-05-23 12:24 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?

Originally posted by Stuartap Sometimes there is only so much you can do with socks on a rooster!

I've never heard that one before! Awesome!

2013-05-23 1:05 PM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
It's my understanding that buying components to build up a bike (at or close to full retail) is much more expensive than buying the complete bike. There's no way I would pay roughly the same amount for the 5 year old frame built up as a brand new bike designed for DI2.

Sounds like bait and switch.
2013-05-23 2:22 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but nothing the owner suggested makes any sense to me.
2013-05-23 2:31 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by tri808

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but nothing the owner suggested makes any sense to me.


Getting a bike that fits well with DI2, carbon wheels and a powertab for under $5k total, surely made sense.
2013-05-23 2:32 PM
in reply to: wbattaile

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by wbattaile

It's my understanding that buying components to build up a bike (at or close to full retail) is much more expensive than buying the complete bike. There's no way I would pay roughly the same amount for the 5 year old frame built up as a brand new bike designed for DI2.

Sounds like bait and switch.


I only went down this path since what I thought was quoted price for the 2012 DI2 was at a level you find on ebay (stongly discounted)


2013-05-23 2:52 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by tri808

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but nothing the owner suggested makes any sense to me.


Agreed. If Di2 is critical for someone, then I would think you would start with frames that are designed for and/or already built up with Di2.

Beyond that, it is always going to be cheaper to go with a bike that is already built then putting together piecemela unless you are a great eBay sniper, willing to go with used components or both.

Shane
2013-05-23 2:53 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by timf79

Originally posted by tri808

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but nothing the owner suggested makes any sense to me.


Getting a bike that fits well with DI2, carbon wheels and a powertab for under $5k total, surely made sense.



Does it still make sense to you after all you've found out?

Even if he delivers on his promise of a $5k bike that meets your expectations...unless he's selling used or ebay'd parts (read no warranty) he's not going to make a profit, and will probably take a loss just on parts. This doesn't include the labor charges he'd likely be waiving for the fit and assembly. So it still doesn't make sense.

Edited by tri808 2013-05-23 2:54 PM
2013-05-23 2:57 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by tri808

Originally posted by timf79

Originally posted by tri808

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but nothing the owner suggested makes any sense to me.


Getting a bike that fits well with DI2, carbon wheels and a powertab for under $5k total, surely made sense.



Does it still make sense to you after all you've found out?

Even if he delivers on his promise of a $5k bike that meets your expectations...unless he's selling stolen goods he's not going to make a profit, and will probably take a loss just on parts. This doesn't include the labor charges he'd likely be waiving for the fit and assembly. So it still doesn't make sense.

Since the wheels are used and bulit with the old powertab sl+ it made sense.
And the old 2012 DI2 heavily discounted made sense too.

I mean there are not many that would take these items of his hands.

To be honest, I am really upset with myself for going down that road as I did not have that "AWESOME" gut feel from the beginning.
It just sounded like a good deal.
Also the fact that he is one of the best fitters in the area made me go down that road (since fit is the most important thing)
2013-05-23 3:01 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
I don't blame you for being excited about the deal he offered and taking it. It certainly seemed "too good to be true" huh? I'm on your side...I think you should be upset if the owner doesn't deliver on his promise. Somewhere there was some miscommunication, and either you're going to pay much more than $5k, or the owner is going to take a loss.
2013-05-23 3:02 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by timf79

Getting a bike that fits well with DI2, carbon wheels and a powertab for under $5k total, surely made sense.



I think the noise you heard while talking to the shop owner about this was your "it's too good to be true" alarm.

Not sure what wheels you were looking at but going conservative:

Wheels - $500
Frame - $1000
Powertap - $1000
Di2 group - $2000
Misc parts - $500

Add in build and fitting and you're well over $5k.

Shane


2013-05-23 3:11 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Master
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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by gsmacleod

I think the noise you heard while talking to the shop owner about this was your "it's too good to be true" alarm.

Not sure what wheels you were looking at but going conservative:

Wheels - $500
Frame - $1000
Powertap - $1000
Di2 group - $2000
Misc parts - $500

Add in build and fitting and you're well over $5k.

Shane


It was like:

Wheels w new tires and powertab- $2000
Frame (bought based on his recommendation on ebay) - $1000
Di2 group incl. assembly - $1600
Misc parts & fit- $400


2013-05-23 3:33 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
My next bike purchase will be Di2 (not for a few years at least though), but I am definitely going to at least get a bike that natively supports it (e.g. was sold with it), if not brand new. a new Orbea Ordu Gli2 is 5500 brand new msrp (I think it can be had for under 5k at retail). I know that most shops will include fitting with the purchase as well, maybe even retul with some haggling. You can get some FLO60s for under 1k. so, brand new frame with new technology, native support for DI2, is worth the 25% or so markup in my opinion.
2013-05-23 3:38 PM
in reply to: timf79

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by timf79

It was like:

Wheels w new tires and powertab- $2000
Frame (bought based on his recommendation on ebay) - $1000
Di2 group incl. assembly - $1600
Misc parts & fit- $400


What type of wheels were you looking at and were you planning to have the rear rebuilt with a powertap you already have?

Regardless, it appears you either got sold a bill of goods or there was a big misunderstanding between what you said you wanted and what the owner thought you wanted. If I were you, I would have a discussion with the owner, explain what you thought you were getting and that you feel that you are now not getting anything close to what was discussed. See what you can figure out and then decide what you want to do.

Shane
2013-05-23 3:44 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Am I beeing a drama queen for no reason?
Originally posted by gsmacleod
What type of wheels were you looking at and were you planning to have the rear rebuilt with a powertap you already have?

Regardless, it appears you either got sold a bill of goods or there was a big misunderstanding between what you said you wanted and what the owner thought you wanted. If I were you, I would have a discussion with the owner, explain what you thought you were getting and that you feel that you are now not getting anything close to what was discussed. See what you can figure out and then decide what you want to do.

Shane

We had this disscussion quickly yesterday ti was kinda like that:
store: What components did you have in mind
Me: The owner said he has a DI2 for me at 1,600
store: No that can't be
Owner: I quoted you the manual, sorry I must have miss understood. If you want DI2 we have to route it externaly on the frame
Me: No, I am sure we talked about DI2
Owner: Sorry can't be. The DI2 costs me more than 1,600. My bad if I missunderstood.

From there they took my name and number in order to contact me with a full quote. They might find some used parts to keep the price down.
But also noted that DI2 arts are backordered till July.

Not sure how someone can missunderstand, since ALL I talk about is DI2 when I talk tri-bikes (ask my wife)
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