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2013-05-28 9:01 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
My recent trip to DisneyWorld with my family didn't make me feel good, it made me feel VERY different. It wan't just the size of people, it was the behavior as well - an overbearing sense of entitlement, rudeness, and\or oblivion, where it doesn't seem like these people are on the planet, present and aware. In many ways it felt like a private vacation for my kids, wife and I, we just ended up going different places and enjoyed doing different things than it seems like the crowds did. Not to say I didn't notice the size of people, it's hard to miss. On the couple of occasions when we ate at the parks, seeing how MUCH people were eating (and of course, WHAT they were eating) was a little shocking. I was having trouble understanding how anyone can afford to eat that much financially! From my observations, the 'average' American family must spend 3x as much on food as mine does in a given day.

I don't remember feeling this disconnected with the masses before, and fitness is just a part of it. My wife and I have talked about it, and she sees it as well, but differently more owing to her background and upbringing (grew up largely in Europe, so she sees America differently). I've heard some say that America is losing its way, people are too passive now, too self-centered, I don't know. I'm not in any position to judge anyone but myself, and I feel like I'm operating with a full deck, but I don't feel like I have a whole heck of a lot in common with anyone these days. It's lonely out here.


2013-05-29 5:05 PM
in reply to: VGT


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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by VGT

Yay, lets make fun of fat people!


Not making fun of a fat person. Expressing shock at the sheer volume of people who are overweight and the "food" being consumed in mass quantities.

I often compete Athena, aka "the big girls" and sometimes people give me grief. I easily weigh 180lb (I'm 6'2") and people think it isn't fair I compete Athena because I'm not fat. I am fat! And I should drop 10 lbs rather than get a lighter bike, but compared to the general population I seem normal. Fat, like speed, is relative and the fat curve isn't pretty in this country!
2013-05-29 11:32 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

Houston
Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Aye. I hate threads like this. There are fat people who tri. I'm one of them. I weight 179lbs. I am 5'4.

Do I feel good when I see people who are fatter than me? No, I'm not that petty. You all who do? You all are petty.
2013-05-29 11:39 PM
in reply to: guppie58

Houston
Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
You won't melt if you enter a Wal-Mart. You'll be okay.
2013-05-30 6:53 AM
in reply to: gotab

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by gotab

Aye. I hate threads like this. There are fat people who tri. I'm one of them. I weight 179lbs. I am 5'4.

Do I feel good when I see people who are fatter than me? No, I'm not that petty. You all who do? You all are petty.


There is a distinct difference between an overweight person who does triathlon and an overweight person who says "Supersize? Sure!".

2013-05-30 7:37 AM
in reply to: Dnn

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

Originally posted by Dnn
Originally posted by gotab Aye. I hate threads like this. There are fat people who tri. I'm one of them. I weight 179lbs. I am 5'4. Do I feel good when I see people who are fatter than me? No, I'm not that petty. You all who do? You all are petty.
There is a distinct difference between an overweight person who does triathlon and an overweight person who says "Supersize? Sure!".

Exactly - not meant to be bashing.  For those of us here we are absolutely encouraging of all that pursue a healthy lifestyle no matter what that looks to an individual person.  In fact one of the things I've loved about getting into running and then tri is that it seems to bring people of all ages and sizes - and it's amazing to watch how it can change people.

However, Disney for me was a realization of how many people do not care for their health and choose convenience over it ALL the time.  I would prefer to believe that people really do want to live better and take of themselves but this was not the case when I went ... it was sad. 



2013-05-30 8:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by kursinsky

Originally posted by Oysterboy

About the shape you are in? Just go to Disney Wolrd. Sheesh.


It's cheaper to go to WalMart and you get the same feeling.


Two words:
Waterpark - Wisconsin

Also, if you can believe this, I work at a large medical group, and we had a "smoke shack" between the hospital and clinic portions until about 5 years ago, and it was always packed.

Edited by Swimbikeron 2013-05-30 8:36 AM
2013-05-30 8:51 AM
in reply to: juniperjen

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by juniperjenI would prefer to believe that people really do want to live better and take of themselves but this was not the case when I went ... it was sad. 




This highlights the disconnect though. People make different choices in life. You don't have to be sad about the way someone else chooses to live, you shouldn't feel good because you judge yourself better than random strangers.

You define "live better" as working out and being thinner, they may well define living better as not having to risk being run over by a car, and not getting a 1/4th of the calories from a gu packet, and getting to spend more time with the family and not training for some individual event. I'm not about to start a conversation on what lifestyle is better, just that all lifestyles have there pitfalls.

How many threads do we see on here where someone complains that some acquaintance or family members do not understand the choice to run/ride/swim and risk life and limb? How many threads about how others think you are unhealthily thin?

The way those others are judging the triathlete they know is the same way that many of the triathletes are judging the crowd at Disney.

Some here use to be on the couch and have come a long way to get off of it. And it is great when someone finds a new path and works hard to accomplish something, that doesn't mean that all the people still on the old path are broken.

But the enthusiasm for the new path often comes as a moral judgment for those not on it. We all live in glass houses.

2013-05-30 8:52 AM
in reply to: gotab

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
I assure you I am no light weight myself. I started this thread, as others have chimed, about the numbers of people who clearly have no real interest in their overall health. Indeed, the numbers of people my age (mid 50's) in scooters was disturbing. As a society, health care costs are a problem, and if you think that we are each responsible for our own behavior as far as the cost of health care goes, you really don't understand how the health care system works. I've got no problem with being my brothers keeper, just as long as my brother isn't shoveling french fries in his/her mouth. Then, yeah, I got a problem.
2013-05-30 9:26 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Regarding the subject title of this thread, I can honestly say I don't "feel good" about myself when I see overweight or obese people overeating and riding around on scooters. I don't feel superior to such people, I feel a lot of compassion for them. It's very easy to judge and say "Those people should just exercise like me and not shove junk food in their faces" but how does that help anyone?

One would think that people that live an active and healthy lifestyle would be the most supportive people in the world at encouraging overweight people to get out and have fun exercising, however, many times that is not the case. In fact, I have a few acquaintances that are reasonable marathoners (sub 3:00) that complain about all the charity runners and "penguins" that "ruin" their marathon experience by simply being there.

Anyhow, if I were obese and read this thread, I certainly wouldn't feel motivated to change my life and start doing triathlons, I would just think "People that do triathlons are a bunch of arrogant and mean people, that's not for me."
2013-05-30 9:36 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

Originally posted by Oysterboy I assure you I am no light weight myself. I started this thread, as others have chimed, about the numbers of people who clearly have no real interest in their overall health. Indeed, the numbers of people my age (mid 50's) in scooters was disturbing. As a society, health care costs are a problem, and if you think that we are each responsible for our own behavior as far as the cost of health care goes, you really don't understand how the health care system works. I've got no problem with being my brothers keeper, just as long as my brother isn't shoveling french fries in his/her mouth. Then, yeah, I got a problem.

I do not for a minute think that a majority of the overweight people in America actually want to be overweight, and for you to assume that just because they are in a scooter and unhealthy that is is cause they are choosing that, well, that's just mindblowing to me.  I agree with you that the issue is disturbing, and we all do pay for those that are unhealthy.  But it is not as easy for folks to throw a switch and say from here on in I will be healthy.  Cause I assure you that if it was that easy the majority of America would be healthy already. 



2013-05-30 10:02 AM
in reply to: johnmoran


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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by johnmoran
Anyhow, if I were obese and read this thread, I certainly wouldn't feel motivated to change my life and start doing triathlons, I would just think "People that do triathlons are a bunch of arrogant and mean people, that's not for me."


Good call. For those people, please keep in mind that there are plenty of us at the back of the pack who will love you and support you and do everything we can to celebrate your successes, cheer your attempts, and walk with you for a while when you don't think you can continue. There are a lot of nice people who will never get close to the podium. Some of us are recovering 50+ BMI folks too, and we will tell you there ain't no shame in doing the backstroke, in pushing the bike up a hill, or walking more than running. We'll share where to get size 4E shoes, where to get bike wheels that won't pop spokes, and where you can find a cheap T-shirt that keeps the skin folds comfortable. There is room for everybody at the back of the pack. And when you finish, we will laugh with you and weep with you, and give you the biggest smile we have when we see that race T-shirt on your back at WalMart.

Sign up. Get started. It will not be easy, but things that are worth it are almost never easy. And when you finish, nobody will ever be able to take that away from you. You earn it, it's yours, and I promise you will feel amazing when you're done.
2013-05-30 10:07 AM
in reply to: bzgl40

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

I live in the South. I don't have to look far to see obesity

I do not think I am better than anyone overweight BUT I am working hard to 'try' and get to or stay at the healthy weight myself....

AND for a lot of people that is a CHOICE they are not willing to make.

 About 6 months ago I decided to figure out why I was getting so out of shape when I felt like i worked out  fairly regular and ate pretty good. It was easy to compare myself to others and find someone I was doing better than. But when i decided to get honest with my self I realized it was entitlement. I deserve this sweet because ______. I planned to workout tonight but its OK for my to blow it off because_____.... and that was happening WAY more often than I realized it did till everything started getting snug.

It is hard for me to say no to those fresh baked cookies or to the box of Krispy Kream donuts right beside my office that smell oh so good. I watch some who are the same age as me that have a hard time walking through the office without breathing hard, but they never say no. Most of the time it is a choice some are just not willing to make.

I worked a local 'fair' type thing with a friend who is (very) overweight, had diabetes and serious heart problems and she was eating a funnel cake and I asked her why she was eating that when she knew it was so damaging to her body. She said "We are all gonna die, I want to die happy." ???? What? Does she really think she is gonna die with the powered sugar in her hands? More likely in a hospital with tubes in every available place. My mother-in-law has Celiac. She refuses to follow a gluten free diet.She gets really sick, like spend a week in the hospital sick, and when I say Joyce, You have to stop eating gluten, she gets mad at me and answers, I can't, its too hard. Shes in her late 60's and feels so bad she has already mention going to a nursing home a few times. Seriously. These are people i care about, not people I am comparing myself to or am putting down- but I do get frustrated with them because their health is in their hands and they refuse to tell themselves no.

2013-05-30 10:08 AM
in reply to: bzgl40

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by bzgl40

Originally posted by Oysterboy I assure you I am no light weight myself. I started this thread, as others have chimed, about the numbers of people who clearly have no real interest in their overall health. Indeed, the numbers of people my age (mid 50's) in scooters was disturbing. As a society, health care costs are a problem, and if you think that we are each responsible for our own behavior as far as the cost of health care goes, you really don't understand how the health care system works. I've got no problem with being my brothers keeper, just as long as my brother isn't shoveling french fries in his/her mouth. Then, yeah, I got a problem.

I do not for a minute think that a majority of the overweight people in America actually want to be overweight, and for you to assume that just because they are in a scooter and unhealthy that is is cause they are choosing that, well, that's just mindblowing to me.  I agree with you that the issue is disturbing, and we all do pay for those that are unhealthy.  But it is not as easy for folks to throw a switch and say from here on in I will be healthy.  Cause I assure you that if it was that easy the majority of America would be healthy already. 

I agree with both comments....I find it disturbing to see an obese mom, dad and child at the grocery store seeing their cart filled with sugary, processed crap food knowing that their collective diabetes, heart disease and joint failures will be adding to my insurance premiums year over year...

I also understand that most people have a "story" as to why they're where they're at with their weight problem and I feel sorry for them that they haven't yet found a way to overcome it...

Many people are lazy when it comes to food preparation (generalization I know) and unfortunately in this country it's more work to eat healthy and usually costs more.  Until food producers/manufacturers come up with affordable healthier options AND we implement some sort of food sin tax similar to tobacco and alcohol, I think America's obesity epidemic will continue to get worse...

My company has a tobacco surcharge for any insurance plans chosen and I've been lobbying that one be added for obesity.  Sure it may seem mean but really, how is obesity any less detrimental to overall health AND the financial impact to the system?

2013-05-30 10:09 AM
in reply to: bzgl40

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Subject: we need to change the name of this thread!
I do not for a minute think that a majority of the overweight people in America actually want to be overweight, and for you to assume that just because they are in a scooter and unhealthy that is is cause they are choosing that, well, that's just mindblowing to me. I agree with you that the issue is disturbing, and we all do pay for those that are unhealthy. But it is not as easy for folks to throw a switch and say from here on in I will be healthy. Cause I assure you that if it was that easy the majority of America would be healthy already.


Semantics. You may not *want* to be overweight, but if you're dead set on eating food you know is unhealthy, in quantities you know are excessive, it's the same thing But there's a difference between someone who's overweight - making poor lifestyle choices and suffering the consequences - and someone who's obese. Obesity is linked with deep psychological issues, and isn't just as simple as eating differently and working out. Overweight people aren't the ones on scooters, that's obese. For the obese, I understand it's hard to 'throw that switch', because we're talking about psychology and that's heavy stuff. Those aren't people who can throw a switch, that switch is stuck in a position and needs counseling to turn the other way.

I *THINK* this thread is more about the 'overweight' class - people who don't have the psychological issues that accompany obesity, they are simply making poor choices in diet. That's the prevalent behavior and waistline in this country these days. I can think of a number of people I see at the gym regularly who didn't start losing weight and gaining health until they stopped eating so much, so poorly, or both. The food choices in this country are AWFUL, and the choice to eat well isn't anywhere close to being as apparent as all the bad options. That being said, it's still an OPTION. Ask anyone who is overweight (not obese, different!) whether what they eat is healthy or not, and you'll get 'well, it's not too bad', but they clearly know there are healthier options. They also know they eat a lot of it, and if pressed most will say they eat until full. Portion size and food choices. I don't want to pay the health care bill for people who are unwilling to make those CHOICES, I agree with Oysterboy wholeheartedly.
2013-05-30 10:27 AM
in reply to: gotab

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Originally posted by gotab

Aye. I hate threads like this. There are fat people who tri. I'm one of them. I weight 179lbs. I am 5'4.

Do I feel good when I see people who are fatter than me? No, I'm not that petty. You all who do? You all are petty.



I'm about the same as you.... just a few inches shorter and a bit lighter.

A few years ago, at my husband's company, there was a group of women who were purposely "fattening" themselves. They were probably 70-80 pounds overweight and found out that insurance would pay for gastric bypass if they were 100+ pounds overweight. So they started eating.

So do I feel superior to people I see fatter than me in general? No.

Did I get disgusted enough by those women for it to be my "wake up call" to start getting healthy? Yes.


2013-05-30 10:40 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: we need to change the name of this thread!
Originally posted by fisherman76

The food choices in this country are AWFUL


See this is where everyone is wrong. I know you mean that it is fattening. That it isn't "healthy". That it isn't easy to eat "well".

Have we forgotten that it wasn't that long ago that people didn't have enough to eat. That in the world today there are many who still don't have enough to eat.

The food choices in this country are freaking amazing. They are cheap, they are easy to get, they are tasty, they are fresh, and clean, and well prepared.

That my friends is the miracle of the modern world. Go back a hundred years or so and weight was a sign of wealth - if you could afford to eat well you were doing alright.

Yes, there are risks and downsides to readily available food. But there are a lot of upsides too.
2013-05-30 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: we need to change the name of this thread!
I'll fix that.

the variety of available foods in this country is amazing and second to none.

The exposure the unhealthy ones get in comparison to the exposure the healthy ones get is overwhelming. The number of aisles full of things that aren't good for you at the supermarket compared with the ones that are. The number of restaurants serving healthy food compared with the ones that aren't. The number of convenience stores and food stands that serve healthy food with the ones that aren't. The proportion of healthy food in any given cafeteria with the amount of unhealthy food. Jaime Oliver, Morgan Spurlock, and others didn't make this stuff up.

Edited by fisherman76 2013-05-30 10:48 AM
2013-05-30 11:13 AM
in reply to: Dnn

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

Originally posted by Dnn
Originally posted by gotab Aye. I hate threads like this. There are fat people who tri. I'm one of them. I weight 179lbs. I am 5'4. Do I feel good when I see people who are fatter than me? No, I'm not that petty. You all who do? You all are petty.
There is a distinct difference between an overweight person who does triathlon and an overweight person who says "Supersize? Sure!".

how do you know that the overweight person you are judging in disney world or wal mart or wherever ISN'T the overweight guy at the tri?  gotab goes shopping and on vacation and if you would see him you would thing "gosh try not to be so lazy"

2013-05-30 11:20 AM
in reply to: NewClydesdale

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

Originally posted by NewClydesdale
Originally posted by juniperjenI would prefer to believe that people really do want to live better and take of themselves but this was not the case when I went ... it was sad. 
This highlights the disconnect though. People make different choices in life. You don't have to be sad about the way someone else chooses to live, you shouldn't feel good because you judge yourself better than random strangers. You define "live better" as working out and being thinner, they may well define living better as not having to risk being run over by a car, and not getting a 1/4th of the calories from a gu packet, and getting to spend more time with the family and not training for some individual event. I'm not about to start a conversation on what lifestyle is better, just that all lifestyles have there pitfalls. How many threads do we see on here where someone complains that some acquaintance or family members do not understand the choice to run/ride/swim and risk life and limb? How many threads about how others think you are unhealthily thin? The way those others are judging the triathlete they know is the same way that many of the triathletes are judging the crowd at Disney. Some here use to be on the couch and have come a long way to get off of it. And it is great when someone finds a new path and works hard to accomplish something, that doesn't mean that all the people still on the old path are broken. But the enthusiasm for the new path often comes as a moral judgment for those not on it. We all live in glass houses.

this is a wonderful post.  thank you!

2013-05-30 11:26 AM
in reply to: NewClydesdale

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Subject: RE: we need to change the name of this thread!

Originally posted by NewClydesdale
Originally posted by fisherman76 The food choices in this country are AWFUL
See this is where everyone is wrong. I know you mean that it is fattening. That it isn't "healthy". That it isn't easy to eat "well". Have we forgotten that it wasn't that long ago that people didn't have enough to eat. That in the world today there are many who still don't have enough to eat. The food choices in this country are freaking amazing. They are cheap, they are easy to get, they are tasty, they are fresh, and clean, and well prepared. That my friends is the miracle of the modern world. Go back a hundred years or so and weight was a sign of wealth - if you could afford to eat well you were doing alright. Yes, there are risks and downsides to readily available food. But there are a lot of upsides too.

Where to start...

The fact that cheap easy to get and tasty foods are almost EXCLUSIVELY the culprits for overweight/obese individuals makes your point curious at best...

What does 100 years ago have to do with the obesity epidemic now?  Did you know that being pale 100 years ago also meant affluence because it meant you weren't out working in the fields? 

Lastly, what are the upsides again for cheap, easy to get and tasty crap packaged in a heat and serve box?  The only upside I see is it's affordable but that only contributes to the problem as many don't have the knowledge and/or financial ability to choose the more difficult to find HEALTHY options...

 



2013-05-30 11:33 AM
in reply to: NewClydesdale

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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?

Originally posted by NewClydesdale
Originally posted by juniperjenI would prefer to believe that people really do want to live better and take of themselves but this was not the case when I went ... it was sad. 
This highlights the disconnect though. People make different choices in life. You don't have to be sad about the way someone else chooses to live, you shouldn't feel good because you judge yourself better than random strangers. You define "live better" as working out and being thinner, they may well define living better as not having to risk being run over by a car, and not getting a 1/4th of the calories from a gu packet, and getting to spend more time with the family and not training for some individual event. I'm not about to start a conversation on what lifestyle is better, just that all lifestyles have there pitfalls. How many threads do we see on here where someone complains that some acquaintance or family members do not understand the choice to run/ride/swim and risk life and limb? How many threads about how others think you are unhealthily thin? The way those others are judging the triathlete they know is the same way that many of the triathletes are judging the crowd at Disney. Some here use to be on the couch and have come a long way to get off of it. And it is great when someone finds a new path and works hard to accomplish something, that doesn't mean that all the people still on the old path are broken. But the enthusiasm for the new path often comes as a moral judgment for those not on it. We all live in glass houses.

I don't think anyone is arguing which method one chooses to make themselves happier is better, rather there are repurcussions from obesity that everyone in our society has to bear and that's where people feel empowerment to cast opinions on how and why people should lose weight...

If there were a way in which it wouldn't cost me a dime extra in my life to help subsidize other's lifestyle choices (obesity, tobacco, drug abuse etc.) then I'd gladly refrain from comments about people making those choices...

However that ain't happenin' and with the recent healthcare reform act, I shudder to think of what the future will bring in the world of medical insurance etc..

 

2013-05-30 11:44 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy


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Subject: RE: Wanna feel good?
Certainly some interesting perspectives in this thread.

Whatever the reasons for each persons health, one fact remains...its hard work to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Are the better options for food, excercise and well being all around, yes. But motivation to live this way takes a tremendous amount of discipline. Clearly the people on this site have that discipline or the desire to do so. That says a lot.

For those already in an unhealthy lifestyle it seems impossible to start on a healthy path. For one, unhealthy food is cheap and way too easily accessible. Secondly, it takes a lot of commitment to start living clean and healthy for your own benefit, but to deal with society on top of that? I can't imagine the thoughs going through the minds of people at Wal-Mart, or DisneyLand, etc. To want to be out in public and know the world is judging you everywhere you go, everytime you eat something. And then when a person decides they want to take care of themselves they are judged on their appearance when they are out jogging, or riding a bike, etc. Torture.

Kudos to those who can withstand the torture of our society and follow through with doing something positive for themselves. Its a tough battle to have with yourself and still persevere.

Its so sad how much importance we give our appearance and judge ourselves. I try really hard to motivate people around me to exercise. ANY kind of exercise. People are always amazed at being able to ride a bike for a mile. This mentality has to change. But it won't ever be this way if we don't encourage all those around us to join us when we go for a walk, hike, bike ride, and finally feel good about ourselves regardless of what we look like.

It really shouldn't take near death experiences to awaken to the idea that we should take care or ourselves.

Thanks for hearing me out.

2013-05-30 11:49 AM
in reply to: TriMike

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Subject: RE: we need to change the name of this thread!
My point on the food availability is that I would rather have people have the option to be fat and with high cholesterol than no choice but to be starving with scurvy.

That and it is easier to get healthy food today than it ever has been. It is not as easy, or as cheap, as getting "unhealthy" food. But it is easier you have the choice, you make it.

I may make different choices. That is my call.

If I come to BT asking for how to lose weight then tell me to cut out the fries. If you see me on the street I am not asking for your advice, or your pity.

As for health insurance - I've been to the doctor FAR more since I started doing Tri's than ever before in my life. Running injuries, xrays, PT, shoulder arthritis they want to do more imaging on that I never would have noticed if I wasn't swimming a lot, etc.

Again, our lifestyle is not without it's faults and its costs.
2013-05-30 11:59 AM
in reply to: NewClydesdale

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Subject: RE: we need to change the name of this thread!
Originally posted by NewClydesdale

My point on the food availability is that I would rather have people have the option to be fat and with high cholesterol than no choice but to be starving with scurvy.

That and it is easier to get healthy food today than it ever has been. It is not as easy, or as cheap, as getting "unhealthy" food. But it is easier you have the choice, you make it.

I may make different choices. That is my call.

If I come to BT asking for how to lose weight then tell me to cut out the fries. If you see me on the street I am not asking for your advice, or your pity.

As for health insurance - I've been to the doctor FAR more since I started doing Tri's than ever before in my life. Running injuries, xrays, PT, shoulder arthritis they want to do more imaging on that I never would have noticed if I wasn't swimming a lot, etc.

Again, our lifestyle is not without it's faults and its costs.


your health issues from S/B/R are WAY cheaper to treat than diabetes, stroke, heart attack.... not to mention that exercise is all the preventive strategy for dementia and cancer
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Started by bikerdude
Views: 898 Posts: 4

2005-05-29 3:37 PM Writebrained

This made me feel good

Started by lincsguyus
Views: 960 Posts: 3

2004-07-27 12:50 PM tech_geezer

feeling good leads to feeling bad

Started by tripez
Views: 959 Posts: 3

2004-06-02 8:52 AM Nancytris

Feel Good

Started by MUL98
Views: 904 Posts: 6

2004-04-20 10:00 AM DRM
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