General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running more but getting slower Rss Feed  
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2013-06-12 1:04 PM


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Subject: Running more but getting slower
Last year was my first year of triathlons and before that I wasn't into running that much unless it involved a sport with a ball. Last October I did a 5K in a pretty hilly neighborhood and my official chip time was 7:15 min / mile.

So far this year I have ran more than I have in my entire life (140 miles YTD - 28 in March, 25 in April, 43 in May, and 25 so far in June) but I am not getting faster. My focus has been building up to a half marathon distance for the HIM I am doing in September so haven't been too concerned about speed, rather just building endurance and tolerance for running that long. However, about once a week I'll do a short run (3.0 - 3.5 miles) and although it feels like I am pushing it I cannot run as fast as I did back in October and the route I run isn't nearly as hilly. I'll clock in around 7:45 min / mile when I do that. Also, I might be 5 lbs heavier now than I was at the time of my last official 5K but that weight will be gone soon.

Any suggestions / workouts for improving my speed?

Here is a sampling of my last few runs:
9.10 miles, 9:41 min / mile, 153 bpm HR
3.44 miles, 7:52 min / mile, 159 bpm HR
8.02 miles, 9:38 min / mile, 156 bpm HR


Thanks.



2013-06-12 1:30 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
More running.

You are still not running nearly enough to expect to see meaningful imporvement. Run more frequently (you can't be running more than 2-3x/wk right now) and gradually build your overall mileage. You'll get faster with time. Drop the weight, too.
2013-06-12 1:35 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
In order to run fast you have to run fast. If all of your runs are focused on upping your endurance than you're not going to see much of a speed gain. If you want to quicken up your pace start upping your intensity once a week. Do some 200yd repeats, 400 repeats, mile repeats, etc. Although be very careful as upping both intensity and mileage at the same time can lead to injury if not done with care. Also if your only running 25 -30 miles per month, perhaps just concentrate on getting to about 20-30 miles a week before worrying too much about your pace.
2013-06-12 1:45 PM
in reply to: Kevin.

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Yep you need to be closer to 30 miles per week before you will see large speed gains.

As far as the difference between your race and now there are lots of things that can come into play. Are you riding more or harder now? Are your legs more fatigued than they were then? How about the weather? October around here is a nice time to run, nice and cool. It has been hot here lately, that will slow you down too.

Anyway, work on frequency and getting your miles per week up before you worry too much about speed.
2013-06-12 1:59 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
In order to improve your running, it is said you need to have three key types of workouts each week. At least one strength (hill repeats), one endurance, and one speed. Insert a few easy runs such as T2s too and you have a solid week. I usually try to stay away from blanket statements as everybody's body is different. However, you are not running anywhere near enough for a HIM. For a half marathon stand alone (apart from a HIM) it is suggested you run at least 25 miles a week and you will be good to go for the race.

I am training for a HIM in Racine in July. I swim 3-4x a week. Bike 4-5 (like running I generally make sure to get in one strength bike, one endurance, and one speed work, but usually 2x endurance a week with the other workouts). I run around 23-25 miles a week (one Strength (hill repeats), one Endurance, and One speed and a few T2 runs off of the bike.

As I mentioned, everyone's body is different. Nevertheless, 25-45 miles a month is not nearly enough, especially going into a HIM where the 13.1 is after 1.2 miles of swimming and 56 of biking. Your body is already fatigued and you need a good base of mileage to get through the 13.1 strong, injury free and have good form. Ease into the mileage though, don't just up the mileage ridiculously chasing the numbers. You want to get to the start line healthy and not get injured in the process.

Good luck with your training! Work smart and hard, but don't forget to have fun!!

Edited by FastFish26 2013-06-12 2:02 PM
2013-06-12 2:03 PM
in reply to: Kevin.

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by Kevin.

In order to run fast you have to run fast.


Incorrect.

If all of your runs are focused on upping your endurance than you're not going to see much of a speed gain.


Fortunately, all triathlon distances are aerobic in nature so "speed" is not really a concern.

If you want to quicken up your pace start upping your intensity once a week. Do some 200yd repeats, 400 repeats, mile repeats, etc. Although be very careful as upping both intensity and mileage at the same time can lead to injury if not done with care.


Very good advice in the last sentence.

Also if your only running 25 -30 miles per month, perhaps just concentrate on getting to about 20-30 miles a week before worrying too much about your pace.


And here is the crux of the issue; more run training required, not faster run training required.

Shane



2013-06-12 2:09 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Johnny and Shane spot on as usual. 

Just to add though, you really shouldn't compare your race times to your training times.  There's a saying that goes...

You don't train fast to race.  You train more to race fast.

2013-06-12 2:13 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Originally posted by tb1000 Last year was my first year of triathlons and before that I wasn't into running that much unless it involved a sport with a ball. Last October I did a 5K in a pretty hilly neighborhood and my official chip time was 7:15 min / mile. So far this year I have ran more than I have in my entire life (140 miles YTD - 28 in March, 25 in April, 43 in May, and 25 so far in June) but I am not getting faster. My focus has been building up to a half marathon distance for the HIM I am doing in September so haven't been too concerned about speed, rather just building endurance and tolerance for running that long. However, about once a week I'll do a short run (3.0 - 3.5 miles) and although it feels like I am pushing it I cannot run as fast as I did back in October and the route I run isn't nearly as hilly. I'll clock in around 7:45 min / mile when I do that. Also, I might be 5 lbs heavier now than I was at the time of my last official 5K but that weight will be gone soon. Any suggestions / workouts for improving my speed? Here is a sampling of my last few runs: 9.10 miles, 9:41 min / mile, 153 bpm HR 3.44 miles, 7:52 min / mile, 159 bpm HR 8.02 miles, 9:38 min / mile, 156 bpm HR Thanks.

It's great that you're running more than you have before, but 25-48 miles per month is not nearly enough mileage to see improvements.

Also, don't worry about your training times. I regularly run in the 9mm pace but race HM in the high 7s/ low 8s.

2013-06-12 2:25 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
A very easy, understandable and effective running plan is the BarryP plan. Best of all, it's adjustable to any level runner. A discussion and links to the plan can be found here.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...
2013-06-12 3:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
You're running way too few miles per week to worry about speed. Have you ever trained for an Half Marathon? You would be putting in too few miles to perform at speed for that. By the way, your HR data is meaningless without your age.

If your goal is just to "get through" an HIM, then focus on endurance not speed. When you get off that bike and the hot sun is baking on your sweaty body, you'll be gasping for air, cramping and wondering why you didn't run more. I assume you've done an Olympic or Sprint, since you say last year was your first year. You're not running enough to worry about speed in those either.

If you were to train for just a 5k, the minimum running per week I would suggest would be 15 miles probably with a combination of 3 miles of faster running, a 6 mile long run, and something in between. So you're basically training for a 5k given your distances.

My advice is to progressively increase the mileage per week at the usual 10% per week recommended increment and in your case, follow someone else's plan rather than your own. If you can't put in the time, then I strongly suggest to focus on Sprints. You can get a lot more out of your training if you race the distances you trained for.

Edited by FranzZemen 2013-06-12 3:09 PM
2013-06-12 3:35 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Also there is a lot to say for the thrill of competition. In a 5K, even a small local charity 5K, your competitive nature will push you a little further. You have "rabbits" to chase down when running in a race, or "hounds" trying to chase you down as the case my be. Try as you may your motivation during training will not be what it is during race events in my opinion. Nearly all of my efforts are bettered when in an actual race. Just another factor to consider along with all the other good points.


2013-06-12 4:02 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Originally posted by Goosedog A very easy, understandable and effective running plan is the BarryP plan. Best of all, it's adjustable to any level runner. A discussion and links to the plan can be found here. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

This is great- exactly what I have been looking for! Thanks!!

2013-06-12 7:47 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
x10 on some of the wise words that have come before.

1. The best way to get faster is to run lots and to be light.
2. The BarryP plan is elegant simplicity. Highly recommended.
3. Don't expect to come close to 5k race times in training runs.

It's counterintuitive, I know, but you really don't have to train fast to race fast. Simply running a lot goes a heckuva long way. It took me a few injuries before I tried this out, but after 2+ years of drinking the Kool Aid, I'm a convert. I race 5k-10k distances at 5:40-6:00/mile, but almost all of my training is at 7:00-7:40/mile, with occasional forays into the 6:40s if I get carried away. My run training follows the rough outline of the BarryP 3-2-1 plan, with zero speedwork. One caveat is that I do include high intensity aerobic workouts in my training, but those are almost all on the bike. My fastest running in recent years corresponded to when I was doing the highest mileage, i.e., marathon training.
2013-06-12 9:27 PM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by colinphillips

I race 5k-10k distances at 5:40-6:00/mile, ... .


THIS IS BEGINNERTRIATHLETE.COM!!!!!!!!!!!!!


2013-06-12 9:33 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by colinphillips I race 5k-10k distances at 5:40-6:00/mile, ... .
THIS IS BEGINNERTRIATHLETE.COM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder we don't see your kids posting here...

2013-06-12 9:56 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by colinphillips I race 5k-10k distances at 5:40-6:00/mile, ... .
THIS IS BEGINNERTRIATHLETE.COM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder we don't see your kids posting here...




Seriously. They're like, "Daddy, did YOU win your race this weekend." "No honey, I didn't." "Well, I DID."

I hate 'em.



2013-06-12 10:03 PM
in reply to: Jason N


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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
I'll echo what some others have said. . . . you're not running nearly enough to do any speed work. You can get a lot faster simply by running more given your current base. Also as others have said, never try to hit race times in training, its just not going to happen. Sign up for a 5k race if you want to see where you're at compared to your last 5k.



2013-06-13 5:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by Kevin.

In order to run fast you have to run fast. If all of your runs are focused on upping your endurance than you're not going to see much of a speed gain. If you want to quicken up your pace start upping your intensity once a week. Do some 200yd repeats, 400 repeats, mile repeats, etc. Although be very careful as upping both intensity and mileage at the same time can lead to injury if not done with care. Also if your only running 25 -30 miles per month, perhaps just concentrate on getting to about 20-30 miles a week before worrying too much about your pace.



The whole you need to train fast to race fast really needs to be in the right context. I personally think in the OP's case the context is as wrong as it can be. Even in a person who has a decent program for Tri's going, doing 200's and 400's is still not the best idea out there.



so I should have read the whole thread before posting b/c I am now basically just repeating. But Hey I will leave what I typed up just to reinforce.

Edited by qrkid 2013-06-13 5:26 AM
2013-06-13 5:28 AM
in reply to: colinphillips

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by colinphillips

x10 on some of the wise words that have come before.

1. The best way to get faster is to run lots and to be light.
2. The BarryP plan is elegant simplicity. Highly recommended.
3. Don't expect to come close to 5k race times in training runs.

It's counterintuitive, I know, but you really don't have to train fast to race fast. Simply running a lot goes a heckuva long way. It took me a few injuries before I tried this out, but after 2+ years of drinking the Kool Aid, I'm a convert. I race 5k-10k distances at 5:40-6:00/mile, but almost all of my training is at 7:00-7:40/mile, with occasional forays into the 6:40s if I get carried away. My run training follows the rough outline of the BarryP 3-2-1 plan, with zero speedwork. One caveat is that I do include high intensity aerobic workouts in my training, but those are almost all on the bike. My fastest running in recent years corresponded to when I was doing the highest mileage, i.e., marathon training.


Damn foreigners trying to get in those backdoor brags.
2013-06-13 8:46 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

More running.

You are still not running nearly enough to expect to see meaningful imporvement. Run more frequently (you can't be running more than 2-3x/wk right now) and gradually build your overall mileage. You'll get faster with time. Drop the weight, too.


I'll second that -- you simply need more time and mileage as a base. Emphasis on "gradually build your overall mileage."

Ken
2013-06-13 9:10 AM
in reply to: FranzZemen

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by FranzZemen

You're running way too few miles per week to worry about speed. Have you ever trained for an Half Marathon? You would be putting in too few miles to perform at speed for that. By the way, your HR data is meaningless without your age.

If your goal is just to "get through" an HIM, then focus on endurance not speed. When you get off that bike and the hot sun is baking on your sweaty body, you'll be gasping for air, cramping and wondering why you didn't run more. I assume you've done an Olympic or Sprint, since you say last year was your first year. You're not running enough to worry about speed in those either.

If you were to train for just a 5k, the minimum running per week I would suggest would be 15 miles probably with a combination of 3 miles of faster running, a 6 mile long run, and something in between. So you're basically training for a 5k given your distances.

My advice is to progressively increase the mileage per week at the usual 10% per week recommended increment and in your case, follow someone else's plan rather than your own. If you can't put in the time, then I strongly suggest to focus on Sprints. You can get a lot more out of your training if you race the distances you trained for.


Even with your age, the heart rate data is meaningless. 220-age is about as accurate as playing pin the tale on the donkey.

x1000 on the not putting in enough miles for a half ironman.


2013-06-13 9:10 AM
in reply to: kenail

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower

Originally posted by kenail
Originally posted by JohnnyKay More running. You are still not running nearly enough to expect to see meaningful imporvement. Run more frequently (you can't be running more than 2-3x/wk right now) and gradually build your overall mileage. You'll get faster with time. Drop the weight, too.
I'll second that -- you simply need more time and mileage as a base. Emphasis on "gradually build your overall mileage." Ken

your a little late to second it.  More like 15x's by now.  If the OP doesn't get it by now then the cause is lost.

2013-06-13 9:11 AM
in reply to: kenail


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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
I certainly did not run this much last year, not even close to it, that's why I was a little frustrated with my times even though that isn't my training focus.

Soo..I thought I was running a lot now but apparently I am not. Will have to find the time to get out more based on everything I am reading.

Also - someone asked / referenced my age in relation to my HR - I am 33, 6'0", 185 lbs (athletic build from background in team sports and strength training), Male, and I love dogs

Thanks for the tips. I'll get to work.
2013-06-13 9:57 AM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Running more but getting slower
Originally posted by tb1000

I am 33, 6'0", 185 lbs


Aha, that's a useful data point right there. If you were 6'0" and 165 lbs you'd be faster. A common estimate is 1-2s per lb per mile.
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