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2013-06-14 4:07 PM
in reply to: mr2tony

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers

Originally posted by mr2tony
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then? The school can't win here. I think they should help her to find another job with carreer placement services. But to know about the danger he can inflict and do nothing is remiss on the school's part. I can see both sides and neither is clearly wrong.
It's CLEARLY WRONG to punish the woman by firing her and kicking her kids out of school for doing nothing other than being a victim of domestic violence? You're basically telling abused women to keep their mouths shut or they'll lose their jobs and suffer other consequences for speaking up, which, in turn, empowers the abuser even more. As I understand it, these women have a hard enough time telling someone about the abuse, adding the fear of losing their jobs or punishing their children by kicking them out of school will only make it infinitely worse.

Totally agree... and all three of us... Left Brain... are in unity. Life is amazing.

I get fire at will. I get the other side of the coin. But clearly... this is just wrong. Not mean and evil, just wrong. And especially for the reason above. Now DV victims have to worry about loosing their lively hood because they go to the authorities to protect themselves and their children. Just so wrong overall. Deal with the known threat if and when it is necessary. File restraining orders, station a cop...



2013-06-14 4:41 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by mr2tony
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then? The school can't win here. I think they should help her to find another job with carreer placement services. But to know about the danger he can inflict and do nothing is remiss on the school's part. I can see both sides and neither is clearly wrong.
It's CLEARLY WRONG to punish the woman by firing her and kicking her kids out of school for doing nothing other than being a victim of domestic violence? You're basically telling abused women to keep their mouths shut or they'll lose their jobs and suffer other consequences for speaking up, which, in turn, empowers the abuser even more. As I understand it, these women have a hard enough time telling someone about the abuse, adding the fear of losing their jobs or punishing their children by kicking them out of school will only make it infinitely worse.

Totally agree... and all three of us... Left Brain... are in unity. Life is amazing.

I get fire at will. I get the other side of the coin. But clearly... this is just wrong. Not mean and evil, just wrong. And especially for the reason above. Now DV victims have to worry about loosing their lively hood because they go to the authorities to protect themselves and their children. Just so wrong overall. Deal with the known threat if and when it is necessary. File restraining orders, station a cop...

This  is how I felt when I read the article!  It is just so wrong on so many levels that it is unbelievable.  I've been in a situation and notified the schools my kids attended and I worked with and was supported by all of them.  Can you imagine how a child would view the education system in that town because of this?    They are victims too and the school is going to create a mental image of what religion and schools really do stand for  that could life altering for them.  Just so wrong and sad on all levels.

2013-06-14 5:35 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?

2013-06-14 6:03 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?




Perhaps you can show me where I said that? I'm under the impression I did not say anything of the sort.

2013-06-14 6:13 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?

Perhaps you can show me where I said that? I'm under the impression I did not say anything of the sort.

Perhaps you can show me where I stated you said that?

It was a question, hence the "?".  Not a statement.  Funny how punctuation works.

2013-06-14 6:22 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?




I'm not defending the school's actions. It's just that I understand their rationale. They need to try and make right by everyone and, in my opinion, they're between a rock and a hard place. Somehow they need to protect the school and somehow they need to make right by the teacher. If they do nothing, they also lose.


2013-06-14 6:24 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?

Perhaps you can show me where I said that? I'm under the impression I did not say anything of the sort.

Perhaps you can show me where I stated you said that?

It was a question, hence the "?".  Not a statement.  Funny how punctuation works.




Yeah, especially when people use statements posed as questions to state assumptions.

I've not stated nor will I state a position here. I thought we were debating the topic at hand and various subtopics associated with the article.

What I said above are considerations having to do with the topic. Apparently the majority of the posters are against this which doesn't exactly make for a well rounded discussion so other points need brought up as well. That's how discussions tend to work best.



2013-06-14 6:33 PM
in reply to: pitt83

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by pitt83
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?

I'm not defending the school's actions. It's just that I understand their rationale. They need to try and make right by everyone and, in my opinion, they're between a rock and a hard place. Somehow they need to protect the school and somehow they need to make right by the teacher. If they do nothing, they also lose.

Thanks for clarifying.  I agree that it was a tough position to be in and definitely not a pleasant decision to make but I personally think it was an easy decision.  They took an easy way out and just sacrificed the innocent to not have to deal with the problem.

Sometimes the easy decision isn't always the right decision.

2013-06-14 6:50 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by Kido
Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by pitt83 Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?
Not just the opinion here, instead of a single wrongful termination suit, the school ends up with a handful of physical and a dozen emotional trauma suits.

So you and Pitt agree with the school's decision and actions?

Perhaps you can show me where I said that? I'm under the impression I did not say anything of the sort.

Perhaps you can show me where I stated you said that?

It was a question, hence the "?".  Not a statement.  Funny how punctuation works.

Yeah, especially when people use statements posed as questions to state assumptions. I've not stated nor will I state a position here. I thought we were debating the topic at hand and various subtopics associated with the article. What I said above are considerations having to do with the topic. Apparently the majority of the posters are against this which doesn't exactly make for a well rounded discussion so other points need brought up as well. That's how discussions tend to work best.

My husband (McFuzz) also tries this tactic in arguments and he calls them"playing the devil's advocate."  frustrates all of us to no end.  I understand the why.  Thanks for stating why you were doing what you were.

2013-06-14 7:13 PM
in reply to: BAMBAM66

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by BAMBAM66

My husband (McFuzz) also tries this tactic in arguments and he calls them"playing the devil's advocate."  frustrates all of us to no end.  I understand the why.  Thanks for stating why you were doing what you were.




What I don't get is why someone would need it explained.

This isn't about me, my beliefs, your beliefs, anyone here's beliefs. It's about a school that terminated a teacher.

It always confuses me when someone decides it's about us in the thread. Never will understand that.

Odds are good I'll just ignore "well, you believe..." comments in the future.

2013-06-15 6:16 AM
in reply to: BAMBAM66

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
I have been following this thread for 2 days now wondering which way it would go.
I am a Public High school Teacher and I am the administrator for our after school program and the Assistant Principal for summer school.
Speaking strictly for myself I consider in order of importance
1) Safety of my students.
2) Safety of my staff.
3) Education of students.
4) Security (prevention of theft or damage) and Maintenance of the facility and equipment.
This is one of these situations in which I say there is no good decision, only the least bad decision.
The school has a duty to protect and educate ALL of it's students and protect ALL of it's staff with in the limits of it's resources.
Most of these parochial school run on a shoestring budget so the idea of hiring a guard is out of the question, and many of these parents send these kids to religious schools so they won't need to be at schools that require guards.
The school is opening themselves up to a wrongful termination suit, but at the same time they are limiting their liability if this whack a doodle should decide to come to the school to get the kids or punish the wife.
I don't like the decision, but as I said I think it is the "least bad" one they could make in this particular case and with out knowing more about the case.


2013-06-15 1:02 PM
in reply to: verga

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
.... Ooorr, the school could keep the teacher on while the guy is in prison. They could monitor the situation after he is released. She could finish the year and they could tell her to find another job over the summer. They could put her on paid leave when he gets out and see what he does. Any number of things to limit damages for all involved instead of just limiting theirs and screw her.
2013-06-15 5:59 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers

Originally posted by powerman .... Ooorr, the school could keep the teacher on while the guy is in prison. They could monitor the situation after he is released. She could finish the year and they could tell her to find another job over the summer. They could put her on paid leave when he gets out and see what he does. Any number of things to limit damages for all involved instead of just limiting theirs and screw her.

2013-06-15 8:55 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by DanielG
Originally posted by BAMBAM66

 

Here in the states, MOST (if not all) private schools don't have unions, therefore, the teachers are hired/fired at will.  They are pretty much immune from wrongful dismissal claims. 

As it should be. Considering the financial status, and that means ultimately the teaching capability, of places like Chicago, Detroit and most of California cities public schools, it's good there are schools that actually care about remaining solvent rather than pandering to unions.

I"m assuming you have plenty of experience in education to base this sweeping statement on? 

2013-06-15 10:21 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
That is what they did. I live about 15 minutes from that school. They have had her on paid leave since the incident and when it came time to renew her contract for the next school year, they decided not to renew. He gets out of jail next month and had previously called in threats to the school. The Catholic schools in this area are slowly closing due to lack of funding. My son went to a different one a few years ago and it has also subsequently closed due to lack of funding. Completely off topic, but the Diocese does a poor job of funding. Each school stands on its own and only gets a certain amount of money from the parish. If the parish is shrinking, so too does the funding. This school is in a lower income area and is likely very tight on budget. No budget for guards or security most likely. The Diocese probably won't provide any funds either. To me, the fault lies with the Diocese more than the school. The Diocese has placed them in a position where they really only had one choice. No tuition from other families equals no school.

The school has a duty of care to its students and once he made the threat, they had to react. In California courts, that would be enough to hang you out to dry. Look how long it took for the Sandy Hook lawsuits to start rolling in.

I don't know the answer and it is very sad that she gets to bear the brunt of his actions. I am hoping somebody in the community comes up with a solution where she can be employed that provides safety for her and those that work with her.
2013-06-17 12:03 PM
in reply to: SGriepsma

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
So she was on contract...a ha. So it isn't as black and white. But still to not renew it, and even publicly admit the reason puts the school in a very litigious situation. A contract is a contract. If both parties sign, and there's nothing in it that promises future work or a renewal....

So are Catholic Schools not publicly run schools in this state? They are a private institution? In Ontario, Catholic schools are constitutionally enshrined and are part of the publicly funded system....

So are there not conditions of release for parole, etc. that this guy would have? You would think that if he broke them, the system would come down on him like a tonne of bricks and he'd find himself back in prison....it just seems the whole situation was handled badly and now a victim of DV is out of a job, and school gets a bad rap, and the only winner is the slime ball in prison who has disrupted everyone's life from a cosy little publicly funded cell.....






2013-06-17 12:21 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers

Originally posted by TheCrownsOwn So she was on contract...a ha. So it isn't as black and white. But still to not renew it, and even publicly admit the reason puts the school in a very litigious situation. A contract is a contract. If both parties sign, and there's nothing in it that promises future work or a renewal.... So are Catholic Schools not publicly run schools in this state? They are a private institution? In Ontario, Catholic schools are constitutionally enshrined and are part of the publicly funded system.... So are there not conditions of release for parole, etc. that this guy would have? You would think that if he broke them, the system would come down on him like a tonne of bricks and he'd find himself back in prison....it just seems the whole situation was handled badly and now a victim of DV is out of a job, and school gets a bad rap, and the only winner is the slime ball in prison who has disrupted everyone's life from a cosy little publicly funded cell.....

Eh......we'd have to release some guy who sold a lb. of weed to his neighbor to make room for him.....can't have those guys out running around.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-17 12:22 PM
2013-06-17 1:22 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TheCrownsOwn So she was on contract...a ha. So it isn't as black and white. But still to not renew it, and even publicly admit the reason puts the school in a very litigious situation. A contract is a contract. If both parties sign, and there's nothing in it that promises future work or a renewal.... So are Catholic Schools not publicly run schools in this state? They are a private institution? In Ontario, Catholic schools are constitutionally enshrined and are part of the publicly funded system.... So are there not conditions of release for parole, etc. that this guy would have? You would think that if he broke them, the system would come down on him like a tonne of bricks and he'd find himself back in prison....it just seems the whole situation was handled badly and now a victim of DV is out of a job, and school gets a bad rap, and the only winner is the slime ball in prison who has disrupted everyone's life from a cosy little publicly funded cell.....

Eh......we'd have to release some guy who sold a lb. of weed to his neighbor to make room for him.....can't have those guys out running around.

Bwahahahahaha. 

&

Damn, testify brotha.

2013-06-17 11:31 PM
in reply to: mr2tony

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by mr2tony
Originally posted by pitt83Suppose that they did nothing and knew this guy is an imminent threat to security of everyone at the school. And then something tragic happened. How would opinion look then?The school can't win here. I think they should help her to find another job with carreer placement services. But to know about the danger he can inflict and do nothing is remiss on the school's part.I can see both sides and neither is clearly wrong.
It's CLEARLY WRONG to punish the woman by firing her and kicking her kids out of school for doing nothing other than being a victim of domestic violence? You're basically telling abused women to keep their mouths shut or they'll lose their jobs and suffer other consequences for speaking up, which, in turn, empowers the abuser even more. As I understand it, these women have a hard enough time telling someone about the abuse, adding the fear of losing their jobs or punishing their children by kicking them out of school will only make it infinitely worse.
Agreed. Nice way to show the students how a community works.
2013-06-20 7:12 AM
in reply to: BAMBAM66

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by BAMBAM66

Originally posted by EKH I'm a public educator this just gives me another reason to dislike private schools.

Unfortunately, in today's society (where the union is viewed as the enemy and is almost non-existent, i.e. Wisconsin) it could happen in a public school too.  This just helps to set the precedent. 




And this is one of the many types of problems that has surfaced since WI ended unions. In the case of this issue the union could have prevented the administration from going after her. This is not her fault and it should not have been even an issue. Unfortunately, here in WI we are now seeing the direct impacts of basically ending the unions and it's not for the better. With tenure, the experienced teachers could feel secure knowing that all their training wouldn't go out the door for fear of being replacd by someone cheaper with less experience. That is now happening. Budget strapped districts have instituted new pay scales that are completely abstract and subjective and administrators play favorites. They are giving a little higher pay to new hires and lower pay to those that have experience or even firing them. They are bullying teachers and telling them if they even belong to the union they will be punished. What they have created is a system of fear, mediocracy and kissing butts regardless if they are a good teacher or not. In many of the districts morale is in the toilet and this spills over into the teaching of kids. Teachers are now afraid to try new things for fear of it not working and the consequences that follow. I will be watching the scores in this state over the next few years. I really have no doubt that they will be going down and it's sad to see a state like this and the history of how well our schools did diminish.
2013-06-21 9:43 AM
in reply to: lakelandsledder

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by lakelandsledder

Originally posted by BAMBAM66

Originally posted by EKH I'm a public educator this just gives me another reason to dislike private schools.

Unfortunately, in today's society (where the union is viewed as the enemy and is almost non-existent, i.e. Wisconsin) it could happen in a public school too.  This just helps to set the precedent. 




And this is one of the many types of problems that has surfaced since WI ended unions. In the case of this issue the union could have prevented the administration from going after her. This is not her fault and it should not have been even an issue. Unfortunately, here in WI we are now seeing the direct impacts of basically ending the unions and it's not for the better. With tenure, the experienced teachers could feel secure knowing that all their training wouldn't go out the door for fear of being replacd by someone cheaper with less experience. That is now happening. Budget strapped districts have instituted new pay scales that are completely abstract and subjective and administrators play favorites. They are giving a little higher pay to new hires and lower pay to those that have experience or even firing them. They are bullying teachers and telling them if they even belong to the union they will be punished. What they have created is a system of fear, mediocracy and kissing butts regardless if they are a good teacher or not. In many of the districts morale is in the toilet and this spills over into the teaching of kids. Teachers are now afraid to try new things for fear of it not working and the consequences that follow. I will be watching the scores in this state over the next few years. I really have no doubt that they will be going down and it's sad to see a state like this and the history of how well our schools did diminish.


Wow..is that how a Union faithful institutionalized public sector teacher views the current state?

Welcome to your first taste in how the real world works.

From someone who's job isn't based on "tenure" but ability, productivity, and paid what the market governs it really isn't that bad. You know the type I am...the ones who foot the bill for the public sector....

Your just playing on a level field now. It can be scary I know...but you will find the good rises and the fat is trimmed.

Unions and fear mongering go together like Armstrong and steroids.....






2013-06-21 10:19 AM
in reply to: TheCrownsOwn

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by TheCrownsOwn

Originally posted by lakelandsledder

Originally posted by BAMBAM66

Originally posted by EKH I'm a public educator this just gives me another reason to dislike private schools.

Unfortunately, in today's society (where the union is viewed as the enemy and is almost non-existent, i.e. Wisconsin) it could happen in a public school too.  This just helps to set the precedent. 




And this is one of the many types of problems that has surfaced since WI ended unions. In the case of this issue the union could have prevented the administration from going after her. This is not her fault and it should not have been even an issue. Unfortunately, here in WI we are now seeing the direct impacts of basically ending the unions and it's not for the better. With tenure, the experienced teachers could feel secure knowing that all their training wouldn't go out the door for fear of being replacd by someone cheaper with less experience. That is now happening. Budget strapped districts have instituted new pay scales that are completely abstract and subjective and administrators play favorites. They are giving a little higher pay to new hires and lower pay to those that have experience or even firing them. They are bullying teachers and telling them if they even belong to the union they will be punished. What they have created is a system of fear, mediocracy and kissing butts regardless if they are a good teacher or not. In many of the districts morale is in the toilet and this spills over into the teaching of kids. Teachers are now afraid to try new things for fear of it not working and the consequences that follow. I will be watching the scores in this state over the next few years. I really have no doubt that they will be going down and it's sad to see a state like this and the history of how well our schools did diminish.


Wow..is that how a Union faithful institutionalized public sector teacher views the current state?

Welcome to your first taste in how the real world works.

From someone who's job isn't based on "tenure" but ability, productivity, and paid what the market governs it really isn't that bad. You know the type I am...the ones who foot the bill for the public sector....

Your just playing on a level field now. It can be scary I know...but you will find the good rises and the fat is trimmed.

Unions and fear mongering go together like Armstrong and steroids.....



This isn't a "view" this is what's actually happening. There is a difference in what happens in a public sector job vs, a private sector job. A private sector job isn't dependent on some politician dictating how much funding you will receive and what you can do with it. A private sector job always has the ability to increase their bottom line, a public doesn't. Many of thse people already make less than they could in the private sector and have taken HUGE hits over the last few years. In this state many districts have been dealing with shrinking budgets for a long time and teachers gave up salary to keep what benefits they had. Now they took anywhere from a 6% up to an 18% addition hit with the elimination of bargaining rights and now many teachers with experience that are on the higher pay scale are being singled out and either having more pay cut or being replaced by a cheaper new hire. In the private sector if this happens, the comapny goes out of business, in the public sector, it merely means less quality and thus more finger pointing at teachers. This has a DIRECT impact on the students and how they learn. Would you rather have a first year resident operate on you or someone with experience? The argument has been "The private sector took a hit so teachers should too!" but what will happen when the private sector is booming again and making money hand over fist? Will teachers get back that pay the lost? No, they won't. I'm in sales and marketing and involved with business and I'll tell you if any company does what the state has done to teachers, they won't be in business long. With the money pulled out of circulation fro these people our state has fallen into the bottom 10 of almost every category and is stagnant. We were 11th in job growth and now we are at 44th and falling more. These austerity measures haven't helped the state, it's shrunk the economy of the state. You speak of a level playing field. When an administrator can pick and chose his favorites regardless of ability that isn't a level playing field.
2013-06-25 8:36 AM
in reply to: lakelandsledder

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Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Originally posted by lakelandsledder

Originally posted by TheCrownsOwn

Originally posted by lakelandsledder

Originally posted by BAMBAM66

Originally posted by EKH I'm a public educator this just gives me another reason to dislike private schools.

Unfortunately, in today's society (where the union is viewed as the enemy and is almost non-existent, i.e. Wisconsin) it could happen in a public school too.  This just helps to set the precedent. 




And this is one of the many types of problems that has surfaced since WI ended unions. In the case of this issue the union could have prevented the administration from going after her. This is not her fault and it should not have been even an issue. Unfortunately, here in WI we are now seeing the direct impacts of basically ending the unions and it's not for the better. With tenure, the experienced teachers could feel secure knowing that all their training wouldn't go out the door for fear of being replacd by someone cheaper with less experience. That is now happening. Budget strapped districts have instituted new pay scales that are completely abstract and subjective and administrators play favorites. They are giving a little higher pay to new hires and lower pay to those that have experience or even firing them. They are bullying teachers and telling them if they even belong to the union they will be punished. What they have created is a system of fear, mediocracy and kissing butts regardless if they are a good teacher or not. In many of the districts morale is in the toilet and this spills over into the teaching of kids. Teachers are now afraid to try new things for fear of it not working and the consequences that follow. I will be watching the scores in this state over the next few years. I really have no doubt that they will be going down and it's sad to see a state like this and the history of how well our schools did diminish.


Wow..is that how a Union faithful institutionalized public sector teacher views the current state?

Welcome to your first taste in how the real world works.

From someone who's job isn't based on "tenure" but ability, productivity, and paid what the market governs it really isn't that bad. You know the type I am...the ones who foot the bill for the public sector....

Your just playing on a level field now. It can be scary I know...but you will find the good rises and the fat is trimmed.

Unions and fear mongering go together like Armstrong and steroids.....



This isn't a "view" this is what's actually happening. There is a difference in what happens in a public sector job vs, a private sector job. A private sector job isn't dependent on some politician dictating how much funding you will receive and what you can do with it. A private sector job always has the ability to increase their bottom line, a public doesn't. Many of thse people already make less than they could in the private sector and have taken HUGE hits over the last few years. In this state many districts have been dealing with shrinking budgets for a long time and teachers gave up salary to keep what benefits they had. Now they took anywhere from a 6% up to an 18% addition hit with the elimination of bargaining rights and now many teachers with experience that are on the higher pay scale are being singled out and either having more pay cut or being replaced by
a cheaper new hire. In the private sector if this happens, the comapny goes out of business, in the public sector, it merely means less quality and thus more finger pointing at teachers. This has a DIRECT impact on the students and how they learn. Would you rather have a first year resident operate on you or someone with experience? The argument has been "The private sector took a hit so teachers should too!" but what will happen when the private sector is booming again and making money hand over fist? Will teachers get back that pay the lost? No, they won't. I'm in sales and marketing and involved with business and I'll tell you if any company does what the state has done to teachers, they won't be in business long. With the money pulled out of circulation fro these people our state has fallen into the bottom 10 of almost every category and is stagnant. We were 11th in job growth and now we are at 44th and falling more. These austerity measures haven't helped the state, it's shrunk the economy of the state. You speak of a level playing field. When an administrator can pick and chose his favorites regardless of ability that isn't a level playing field.


So first off, I want to apologize to you lakelandsledder about my op to your comment on needing the union. When I re read it now it looks fairly abrasive. You've taken the high road on that and I tip my hat to you.

But...if you want to see the flip side of the coin. Look at the magnificent socialist experiment in Ontario with unionized teachers. Seniority over ability. Virtual infallibility of teachers and the inability of boards to get rid of bad teachers (unless it is a criminal matter). The list goes on. We don't even have to get into the unions political support with unlimited funds (loop hole in the elections act), holding the public at ransom and threatening strikes/work actions, etc. So when you say a union is needed, it isn't. We don't have to theorize on what a unionized public sector would look like. We can readily see the results now in the Ontario Public Education sector. The union will cause MORE problems then it will solve. This is simply a recurring theme everywhere you see them in the developed world. Then when we speak out against them, they are a well oiled machine preaching fear of the unknown if they are set aside. They are another form of bureaucracy that needs to feed itself to stay alive. Am I teacher? no. I do a significant amount of work for several school boards in Ontario and do see first hand the result of Union infection in the workplace. My wife is a teacher, and several friends are. Though they are all members of there respective teachers unions, most are disgruntled with the adversarial approach it takes with it's employer, the silly rules and regulations in place, the political stance they take, and frankly the money they pay to it when all they do is support existing labour laws that every citizen has anyways. Oh, but if anyone disagrees with the Union...they are "blackballed." The Union is not a knight is shining armour there to play fair and protect the downtrodden, and make fair the workplace. That may have been it's original intention generations ago. And in developing parts of the world I think it plays an imperative roll to assist people who are genuinely taken advantage of, and face oppression. But to look at teacher's positions today and think that a Union will somehow assist them is just baffling. There is a lot of concern from members within the Union, and also from me...the taxpayer...who pay's for public sector services. A very hefty bill btw.

You mention the drop in your state's ranking, then link it to the desertification of public sector employees. Thats one heck of a link. I don't think rhyming off stats and trying to link various ones makes a good point. With the entire economy the way it is, there are a variety of issues at play which may give rise or fall to your states economic status compared to other states.

As for the OP. We found out the teacher who was "fired" doesn't appear to have been fired at all. She was under contract. Her contract was not renewed. The reason it was not renewed was morally disgusting. But a Union could do no more for her than the current labour laws would allow in her jurisdiction. She believes she has a legal case against her previous employer. Morally, I support her all the way and hope she gets some compensation. But the outcome will be dependent on previous case law and precedent on similar matters. Not the court of public opinion or my moral opinion...and definitely not whether she was or wasn't a member of a Union.


2013-06-25 11:10 PM
in reply to: TheCrownsOwn

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Northern WI
Subject: RE: Domestic Violence and teachers
Thank yu for the comment. I try and be respectful of others views. I know what you're saying, but when unions were ended here it swung the pendulum completely in the other direction and created a mess. Now we have administrators and boards in full retribution mode targeting quality teachrs because they were involved with the union, administrators playing favorites regardless of quality or experience, continued pay cuts in addition to the already 6% to 18% pay cuts they already took in the last two years and more. In a local district (and many in the state) they created pay scales that are completely abstract. They have instituted ways to make experienced teachers want to leave and replace them with cheaper, newer hires out of college. They have created handbooks that stretch the boundaries of what is even legal. Some have wanted to make women wear high heels an skirts until legal counsel told them they shouldn't. Some make reporting anything above a speeding ticket mandatory. This is just the tip of the iecberg. Many that were close to retirement got out and many more are leaving. Some of the figures are showing that upwards of 1/3rd fewer going ino college to become a teacher creating a shortage. As stated earlier, it has created a mess. What's even worse is most of these districts continue to give administrators yearly raises yet the teachers are taking double digit pay cuts. This is not the way to foster a quality product. These are just a few examples of what has transpired over the last year or two. Was the system perfect before? No, but it's actually worse now. It will be interesting to see were test scores go over the next 5 years or so.
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