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2013-06-21 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by lisac957
Originally posted by Jason N

I'm training for my first IM and it really isn't "that" much different than my previous HIM training.

My HIM run training has progressed from around 28 mpw, to 30 mpw, to 32 mpw the past 3 years.  Long runs in the 12-16 range and peak weeks in the 40-44 mile range.  My general format is below.  Naturally I missed a few runs here and there as my schedule conflicted or I just needed more rest for whatever reason.

M - 3-4
T - 4-5
W - 5-6
Th - 4-5
F - 5-6
Sa - Off (long ride)
Su - 12-16

You run 6 days a week training for an IM? That's awesome (if you don't get injured)!
Most plans I see, and the one my coach built for me, have 3-4 runs per week. Which is what I'm doing again for my 3rd go-around at the IM distance. 

How many miles does your coach plan to have you run?  Your mileage goals may be better suited to 3-4 runs per week, but I don't think my running goals will fit in as nicely.  There are guys that train 50-60 mpw running for HIM and IM training.  I can tell you without a doubt they aren't doing it on 3-4 runs per week.

Different goals take different approaches.  It is entirely possible that I could get injured running that type of mileage, but it won't be because I'm running too frequently.  If I do decide to back off my mileage goals, the frequency will stay the same, but the mileage per run will drop.

Well my plan is by TIME not distance. Typical weeks right now are:

45 min
40 min
45 min
2 hour

Or

50 min
30 min (as brick off the bike)
45 min
2 hr 15 min

I am also susceptible to injury and my past injuries (foot "strains", ITB, shin splints) tell me that 6 days a week is too much for me - even when Ultra training I capped it at 5 days - and still got injured. I would love it if I could work up to 6 some day. 




I think you'd find that if you took your current training load and spread it over 6 days you would be LESS susceptible to injury. (Provided that all of your runs are in zone 2/conversational pace). After running 6 days per week for a few months, you can start to change one of the middle distance workouts into tempo.

have you ever tried something like

mon-25
tues-50
wed-25
thurs-50
fri-25
sat-75
sun-rest

ETA: if you are having injury problems, I would STRONGLY recommend never doing brick workouts as part of your regular training.

Edited by dmiller5 2013-06-21 9:55 AM


2013-06-21 10:06 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by dmiller5
Originally posted by lisac957
Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by lisac957
Originally posted by Jason N

I'm training for my first IM and it really isn't "that" much different than my previous HIM training.

My HIM run training has progressed from around 28 mpw, to 30 mpw, to 32 mpw the past 3 years.  Long runs in the 12-16 range and peak weeks in the 40-44 mile range.  My general format is below.  Naturally I missed a few runs here and there as my schedule conflicted or I just needed more rest for whatever reason.

M - 3-4
T - 4-5
W - 5-6
Th - 4-5
F - 5-6
Sa - Off (long ride)
Su - 12-16

You run 6 days a week training for an IM? That's awesome (if you don't get injured)!
Most plans I see, and the one my coach built for me, have 3-4 runs per week. Which is what I'm doing again for my 3rd go-around at the IM distance. 

How many miles does your coach plan to have you run?  Your mileage goals may be better suited to 3-4 runs per week, but I don't think my running goals will fit in as nicely.  There are guys that train 50-60 mpw running for HIM and IM training.  I can tell you without a doubt they aren't doing it on 3-4 runs per week.

Different goals take different approaches.  It is entirely possible that I could get injured running that type of mileage, but it won't be because I'm running too frequently.  If I do decide to back off my mileage goals, the frequency will stay the same, but the mileage per run will drop.

Well my plan is by TIME not distance. Typical weeks right now are:

45 min
40 min
45 min
2 hour

Or

50 min
30 min (as brick off the bike)
45 min
2 hr 15 min

I am also susceptible to injury and my past injuries (foot "strains", ITB, shin splints) tell me that 6 days a week is too much for me - even when Ultra training I capped it at 5 days - and still got injured. I would love it if I could work up to 6 some day. 

I think you'd find that if you took your current training load and spread it over 6 days you would be LESS susceptible to injury. (Provided that all of your runs are in zone 2/conversational pace). After running 6 days per week for a few months, you can start to change one of the middle distance workouts into tempo. have you ever tried something like mon-25 tues-50 wed-25 thurs-50 fri-25 sat-75 sun-rest ETA: if you are having injury problems, I would STRONGLY recommend never doing brick workouts as part of your regular training.

I like this! And it just might make sense for me. Going to stick with my plan for this race (only 5 weeks out) but will seriously consider something like this for the future. I keep reading the "run streak" threads and how they seem to lessen the risk for injury. I will try anything to avoid injury

2013-06-21 10:37 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
I believe and have found that the biggest mistake people make is to rely on their run when they forget to train the other disciplines.

To the OP (I believe) that said the first thing to go are his swims I'd say you are setting yourself up in a bad way. What I have learned in the past several years is that the swim is way more important, fitness-wise, than most people think. Note this is coming from an adult taught swimmer that use to hit the 'did not drown button' and then chase down the pack on the bike and run.

You can build up all the run fitness you want, but when you come out of the water shredded good luck using that run weapon of yours. Focus on your weakness, not your strength. It will only weaken your strength if you do that.

The more is better model of IM training is not smart IMHO. Be specific and purposeful in your workouts.

To directly answer the question about run mileage: I am currently ramping up for IM Lousiville and we are at 30-35 mpw and we will build up to 40-45 mpw. I would say that type of mileage is for what I refer to as "competitive IM athletes". I am not prone to injury but we spread out the mileage over several runs per week. This keeps the sessions quality high and focused.

Example week:
M: AM Swim (3-3.5K)
PM Run (30 min easy)
T: AM ride (80m with ~1/3 of it interval based)
PM run (30 min just a bit above easy pace)
W: AM Swim (3-3.5bove easy pace)
PM run (45 min w/ ~1/3 of it intervals)
R: AM 30 mile Ride (2/3 @IM/ 1/3 @ HIM effort)
F: AM Swim (3-3.5K)
S: AM Ride (4.5 hrs at IM effort with last 30' at HIM effort)
Brick run: 30 min easy
Su: AM Run (12 miles @ Easy to Steady pace)

The above is a typical week for me. Intervals are usually around the 90-105% of tested critical power/velocity range and short in duration)
So:
Runs: 5 total (including brick) - 3.75 hrs
Bike: 3 total - 7.25 hrs
Swim: 3 total - 3.25 hrs
Total - 14.25 hrs

We will ramp up the runs a bit more to add maybe another hour in there to accommodate the long runs and then maybe 1-2 more for the long bike.
2013-06-21 11:47 AM
in reply to: Marvarnett

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Cool thread, especially as I toy with the idea of trying out a full next year. I'm constantly amazed at how little (to me) volume people put in for IM training, especially on the run. However, like I stated, it's a new thing to me so I'm far from knowledgeable. Then again I'm fortunate to have lots of time at my disposal and no other time commitments, added with the ability to recover fairly quick and I end up wanting a ton of volume.

One thing that I think probably is worth consideration is training paces as they relate to overall time/volume. You can't look purely at mileage and say "no way could I do that" or "how can you run so little" without knowing what those paces are. It's going to be far easier for someone who's easy run is a sub 8 pace to gob on 50 mile training weeks than the person who's out running 10' mile easy runs. Obviously that carries over to the other disciplines as well. My 18 mile long run may be 2 hours where your two hour long run is 12 miles and that makes a big difference from the 20k foot view.
2013-06-21 12:38 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by lisac957
Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by lisac957
Originally posted by Jason N

I'm training for my first IM and it really isn't "that" much different than my previous HIM training.

My HIM run training has progressed from around 28 mpw, to 30 mpw, to 32 mpw the past 3 years.  Long runs in the 12-16 range and peak weeks in the 40-44 mile range.  My general format is below.  Naturally I missed a few runs here and there as my schedule conflicted or I just needed more rest for whatever reason.

M - 3-4
T - 4-5
W - 5-6
Th - 4-5
F - 5-6
Sa - Off (long ride)
Su - 12-16

You run 6 days a week training for an IM? That's awesome (if you don't get injured)!
Most plans I see, and the one my coach built for me, have 3-4 runs per week. Which is what I'm doing again for my 3rd go-around at the IM distance. 

How many miles does your coach plan to have you run?  Your mileage goals may be better suited to 3-4 runs per week, but I don't think my running goals will fit in as nicely.  There are guys that train 50-60 mpw running for HIM and IM training.  I can tell you without a doubt they aren't doing it on 3-4 runs per week.

Different goals take different approaches.  It is entirely possible that I could get injured running that type of mileage, but it won't be because I'm running too frequently.  If I do decide to back off my mileage goals, the frequency will stay the same, but the mileage per run will drop.

Well my plan is by TIME not distance. Typical weeks right now are:

45 min
40 min
45 min
2 hour

Or

50 min
30 min (as brick off the bike)
45 min
2 hr 15 min

I am also susceptible to injury and my past injuries (foot "strains", ITB, shin splints) tell me that 6 days a week is too much for me - even when Ultra training I capped it at 5 days - and still got injured. I would love it if I could work up to 6 some day. 

It literally took me 2 years to transition from 3-4 runs a week to 6x a week.  I didn't plan for it to take that long as it was not my original goal...it just so happened that I slowly realized that frequency worked better for me so slowly made tweaks and adjustments to my training schedule to make it work.  It took a lot of experimentation and shuffling workouts around to make it work.  I also had to make adjustments to how hard I choose to run on certain days...basically changing all or most of my runs to easy instead of trying to incorporate more tempo running.

I would be lying if I said that instantly transitioning from 3-4 runs a week to 6-7 runs is easy.  There are a lot of logistical barriers, extra laundry, etc as well as the changes you'll have to account for in how to listen to your body when running more frequently. 

2013-06-21 12:47 PM
in reply to: Marvarnett

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???

Originally posted by Marvarnett I believe and have found that the biggest mistake people make is to rely on their run when they forget to train the other disciplines. To the OP (I believe) that said the first thing to go are his swims I'd say you are setting yourself up in a bad way.

That was me...not the OP who said the swims are likely the first thing to get cut out.  Not because I don't value swimming, it's more a matter of logistics because I actually need to spend time (sometimes in heavy traffic) to swim.  Cutting out a 1 hour swim can literally give me an additional 2.5-3 hours of down time since I don't need to drive both ways, park, shower, etc.

That said...my plan generally has me swimming 3.5-4.5 hours per week...so even if I cut out one swim every 2-3 weeks, I still have decent volume to have me prepared.  I certainly understand that coming out of the water completely gassed will negate a lot of the other training you've done.

I also completely agree with training your weaknesses.  The bike is my strength, which is why I am choosing not to do excessive mileage there and focusing more on my swim and run.



2013-06-21 1:24 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by thebigb

Cool thread, especially as I toy with the idea of trying out a full next year. I'm constantly amazed at how little (to me) volume people put in for IM training, especially on the run. However, like I stated, it's a new thing to me so I'm far from knowledgeable. Then again I'm fortunate to have lots of time at my disposal and no other time commitments, added with the ability to recover fairly quick and I end up wanting a ton of volume.

One thing that I think probably is worth consideration is training paces as they relate to overall time/volume. You can't look purely at mileage and say "no way could I do that" or "how can you run so little" without knowing what those paces are. It's going to be far easier for someone who's easy run is a sub 8 pace to gob on 50 mile training weeks than the person who's out running 10' mile easy runs. Obviously that carries over to the other disciplines as well. My 18 mile long run may be 2 hours where your two hour long run is 12 miles and that makes a big difference from the 20k foot view.


Very very good point. And I think that is where some people, myself included, get in trouble just discussing time.
2013-06-21 2:42 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
I, too, have gone from 3-4 days a week for HIM training to 6days a week for IM training over the past 4 months (and long Sunday run is actually split into two 1 hour runs on Sunday). Perceived injuries have gone down. Doing a HIM next week as an interim step so will be curious to see the difference in a race scenario.
2013-06-21 2:44 PM
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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???

Originally posted by Kido Running 6 days would be awesome! But for the rest of us mere mortals... 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure how i could get 6 days of running and match that appropriately with swims and rides. Miles really depends on where I am in my plan. Peak maybe at a 6, 8, and 18 with a short brick run. Maybe 20-35 miles a week during the entire plan. Take a look at the calendars for the IM plans on BT. They are good examples for training. Four workout in each discipline plus a brick works for most people. All depends own your expectations and fitness level of course.

This is me too.  Currently about 20-24 trainnig for Canada.  Completer, not competer

ETA - I've tried 3-4 x week and I've tried BarryP.  I've gotten injured on BarryP every time (maybe a funciton of effort, who knows), but not 3-4 x week.  Whatever gets you to the start line uninjured



Edited by ChrisM 2013-06-21 2:46 PM
2013-06-21 9:13 PM
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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by grahamclarke_6
Originally posted by Kido Running 6 days would be awesome! But for the rest of us mere mortals... 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure how i could get 6 days of running and match that appropriately with swims and rides. Miles really depends on where I am in my plan. Peak maybe at a 6, 8, and 18 with a short brick run. Maybe 20-35 miles a week during the entire plan. Take a look at the calendars for the IM plans on BT. They are good examples for training. Four workout in each discipline plus a brick works for most people. All depends own your expectations and fitness level of course.
This is exactly what i was going to say. As the volume of training increases I'd struggle to get 6 days running in along with bike rides and swims. I'm using the free BT plan for my 1st IM and the numer / times vary - this week is only 2 runs for total 90mins but its a bike focused week - last week was 5 runs for almost 7hrs - but again that was extreme as it was run focused week. The graph below shows teh total volume over the course of the plan.

I'd guess that most people who say they can't handle spreading their current run mileage over 5-7 runs a week...haven't tried it.  There are of course the people who try to move from 3-4x per week to 6x per week by adding 30% more mileage instead of spreading their current mileage out...then complain about getting injured...but that's not what we're talking about.

 

Completely agree here. I've been training for a half, not even a full, and I run 30 miles across six days a week at LEAST and have been for almost a year. The fitness gains and running gains are staggering, and I would easily say anyone who aspires to a half marathon distance or more should target this volume and frequency. I ramped up mileage very gradually, and in the beginning still had some soreness and cramps, but these days I get no pains at all, just a great run. I also agree with the earleir post that the risk of injury is lessened with this approach, as im living testament. I can't imagine toeing the line for an IM only running 3-4 times a week for less than 30 miles, that seems so woefully undertrained to me. I still put in a good amount of time on the bike, probably around 5 hours at peak, and until the last couple months, all high intensity, shorter (say 1 hour) workouts, but the run is majorly important. We've all read and heard about how people have a good swim, good ride and then fall apart on the run? Sure a lot of that can be attributed to nutrition mistakes, but it also comes down to running fitness! I was shocked at the number of HIM plans - and by proxy, full IM plans- that seemed to downplay the run. This seems like such a tragic mistake. To answer the OP, I'm considering a full next year, and would plan on upping to around 40 miles per week across six days, with varying workouts incorporating distance, speed and hills. People, you gotta get on the recovery run bandwagon!

This, but you have to really commit to going sooooo slow that your HR stays where you need it.  I've gotten over the mental barrier of having to hurt every time I run (although I still like to GO), and now these runs are some of the most chill and awesome times outside that I have - and they really do help my legs.  They're not "zero effort," anymore than a recovery swim, but they are great additions (once I grew up enough to actually walk during a recovery run if my HR got out of whack!).

YMMV, of course.

Matt

ETA:  and, I should also say that I'm no ironman.  Just getting ready for my first Oly and HIM, but I've done a fair piece of running.

M



Edited by mcmanusclan5 2013-06-21 9:14 PM
2013-06-24 10:55 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
I currently do 6 days a week on a barry p type plan

Sunday -3.5
Monday - 7
Tuesday - 3.5 (strides @ end)
Wed - off
Thusday - 7 (speed work tempo or int)
Friday - 3.5
Saturday- 12+ long run

I have kept this plan for about 3 months and decided recently that I would like to build to 40+ a week I am planning on upping my long run 2 miles and then adding either a mile to each medium run or some to the small recovery runs. I have gone from running 10:30+ a mile in my sprint last year to 7:42 a mile this year and did my first half marathon in 1:46


2013-06-24 12:05 PM
in reply to: keqwow

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
I'm in week 5 of 23 IM training. My plan is based off time. Right now the run volumn is low. This plan is bike heavy. I included low & high hours to show what the max will eventually be closer to race day.

M-Off
Tu- AM :45-1hour Bike; PM Swim 1hour
W- :45-1:30hours Run
Th- AM 1-1:30hours Bike; PM Swim 1hour
F- 1-1:30hours Swim
Sa- 4-5:30hours Bike with :20-:30 Brick
Su- 1-2:30hours Run
2013-06-24 12:57 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by GAUG3

I'm in week 5 of 23 IM training. My plan is based off time. Right now the run volumn is low. This plan is bike heavy. I included low & high hours to show what the max will eventually be closer to race day.

M-Off
Tu- AM :45-1hour Bike; PM Swim 1hour
W- :45-1:30hours Run
Th- AM 1-1:30hours Bike; PM Swim 1hour
F- 1-1:30hours Swim
Sa- 4-5:30hours Bike with :20-:30 Brick
Su- 1-2:30hours Run


Did I miss something or does that "plan" only have two run days?
2013-06-24 3:21 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
25-45 mph with more miles during the peak.
2013-06-24 3:28 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
5.5 hour bike in week 5 of training?
2013-06-24 3:29 PM
in reply to: spie34

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by spie34

25-45 mph with more miles during the peak.


45 mph!!!!!


2013-06-25 3:16 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by GAUG3

I'm in week 5 of 23 IM training. My plan is based off time. Right now the run volumn is low. This plan is bike heavy. I included low & high hours to show what the max will eventually be closer to race day.

M-Off
Tu- AM :45-1hour Bike; PM Swim 1hour
W- :45-1:30hours Run
Th- AM 1-1:30hours Bike; PM Swim 1hour
F- 1-1:30hours Swim
Sa- 4-5:30hours Bike with :20-:30 Brick
Su- 1-2:30hours Run


Did I miss something or does that "plan" only have two run days?


2.5. Short brick after long bike.
2013-06-25 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???
Originally posted by rjrankin83

5.5 hour bike in week 5 of training?


Yep. The long bike is broken into thirds. First third is 90% of AeT HR, the second third is 100% AeT HR, and the last third is 105% of AeT HR.

Edited by GAUG3 2013-06-25 3:20 PM
2013-06-26 12:34 AM
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2013-06-26 8:16 AM
in reply to: jdl2012


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Subject: RE: You Ironmen...what kind of weekly running mileage ???

In my last 2 weeks of peak training and roughly by time the breakdown is 3-4 hours swim/wk, 10 hours bike/wk, and roughly 7 hours run/wk.

For the running I am doing 7 days/ week, usually I would do 6, but I am "streaking" and at 238 days as of today.

Daily breakdown for the week goes (this is ideal, I occasionally swap things as needed):

Day 1: rest/ 20 min active recovery (No S/B)
Day 2: 1 hour (7-8.5 miles), either done as a progression, some light intervals built in, or fartlek
Day 3: 1 hour (done as brick at end of long bike)
Day 4: 20 min active recovery run, 60-90 min spin on bike.
Day 5: 1 to 1.5 hour tempo run (usually in the 10 mile range)
Day 6: 1 hour comfortable aerobic pace (usually 7 to 7.5 miles)
Day 7: 2.5 to 3 hour (18-22 mi)

The week after next is the peak of the plan, and I should hit about 60 miles. I've run on and off for the last 20 years, but very consistently for the last 2 and 1/2 years.

I really have not had any real injuries in awhile (knock on wood), and I have to attribute that 100% to consistency.
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