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2013-07-16 9:40 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
At the moment those degrees seem to be in high demand so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


2013-07-16 11:19 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants.

I've never knowingly hired an undocumented worker, but I have hired Ph.D. scientists through the H1-B program. They bring their families (or get married), apply for green cards, and become citizens. The alternative is that they receive a world-class education at US universities and take those skills home. Want an eye-opener? Look at the biographies of the leadership for the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology - every one of them educated overseas.

We are a technology-driven economy. China (for example) is moving in that direction as their national economy continues to develop. They (and other nations) are plowing enormous financial resources into science and technology. Either we compete on a global level for the best possible talent or we concede our place on the world stage economically.
2013-07-16 2:37 PM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants. 

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.

2013-07-16 4:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
just looking into other point of views the jobless americans that are formerly white collar wokers are also at fault , Obama tried to help them by extending their unemployment up to 90-99 weeks (normal is 24 weeks) therefore they were branded 99ers. i used to be a 99er and formerly was a white collar office worker thats why I know this. the jobless americans are getting more from the Obama stimulus compared to the minimum wage pay available jobs. The jobles white collared before will not apply at Walmart,Target or McDonalds. the jobless Americans getting the stmulus waited until their 99 weeks is over still hoping to get back their white collar jobs . They did not realize this min wage jobs maybe low paying but it can offer medical insurance for them and their families.

Now 11 million undocumented are waiting to be legalized they will easily saturate the retail sector, you want to know whats sick. The 11 million will petition their elderly parents and families left behind from their country of origin. Lets just say 2 per ea. undocumented thats 22 Million plus the 11 million. The 22 million will be dumped to the american free educational system and elderly to the medicaid system plus the foodstamps. Who will pay for all of this " the current Hardworking Americans" :(

Edited by strykergt 2013-07-16 4:24 PM
2013-07-16 5:40 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants. 

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.



You are right, I'll confine my comments to what I know and can defend, the H1-B visas.
2013-07-17 6:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

Originally posted by strykergt just looking into other point of views the jobless americans that are formerly white collar wokers are also at fault , Obama tried to help them by extending their unemployment up to 90-99 weeks (normal is 24 weeks) therefore they were branded 99ers. i used to be a 99er and formerly was a white collar office worker thats why I know this. the jobless americans are getting more from the Obama stimulus compared to the minimum wage pay available jobs. The jobles white collared before will not apply at Walmart,Target or McDonalds. the jobless Americans getting the stmulus waited until their 99 weeks is over still hoping to get back their white collar jobs . They did not realize this min wage jobs maybe low paying but it can offer medical insurance for them and their families. Now 11 million undocumented are waiting to be legalized they will easily saturate the retail sector, you want to know whats sick. The 11 million will petition their elderly parents and families left behind from their country of origin. Lets just say 2 per ea. undocumented thats 22 Million plus the 11 million. The 22 million will be dumped to the american free educational system and elderly to the medicaid system plus the foodstamps. Who will pay for all of this " the current Hardworking Americans"

True. Most of those workers will be eligible for all of the benefits and pay none of the taxes. Although.. I don't think they qualify for Medicaid. My husband didn't. Also, they are gonna have to file taxes and pay into SSI for five years before they are qualified for Medicare. 

But I think the kids of undocumented workers already are allowed to use public education. Schools do not require immigration papers.



Edited by KateTri1 2013-07-17 6:08 AM


2013-07-17 6:10 AM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants. 

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.

You are right, I'll confine my comments to what I know and can defend, the H1-B visas.

I believe rule #17 of COJ states that it is mandatory to not have any knowledge on a topic when replying
(I will now exercise this rule)

I'm kind of with powerman in that the "jobs nobody wants" always rubs me wrong.  However, I think it's probably more accurately stated as jobs nobody wants "at that pay level".  We'd get a lot of US field workers if they were paying $30/hr.

This phenomenon isn't just a matter of illegals coming to the US, it has to do with a lot of complex things.  For example, depending on where you look the actual unemployment rate in the US is anywhere from 10% to 15%, which puts that number of people between 31M to 44M people who do not have jobs in the US.  That's obviously a lot more people than there are illegals.  Now, why are there so many unemployed people that "don't want to do any of those jobs"?  IMHO it's because they don't need to have a job.  If they're getting a free ride from the government (or some other entity, like Mom/Dad, cousins, etc...) there is little incentive for them to take one of the $8/hr. jobs when they can make more money sitting on their fat butt living off of somebody else. 

I grew up in a family who did just this.  For many years when my parents were still married they would sit at home all day and do nothing but watch TV and eat.  We were on welfare, food stamps, and pretty much any other government program you could imagine.  My Dad trumped up a "disability" so he could get his Social Security early and there you have it.  Both of my parents were perfectly capable of working, but they chose not to because they could make more doing nothing and scamming the system.
My Dad had 3 brothers and 3 sisters and guess what?  They all did the exact same thing.  They knew which doctor to go to in order to get their disability and they all knew exactly how to game the system.

So, I'm really off on a totally different subject, but the whole immigration thing is very complex and has many facets to it that need to be looked at.  Rather than simply saying they're doing the "jobs nobody wants", I ask the question "why doesn't anybody want the jobs?"  My answer is simply because people make more money doing nothing.

2013-07-17 7:28 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants. 

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.

You are right, I'll confine my comments to what I know and can defend, the H1-B visas.

I believe rule #17 of COJ states that it is mandatory to not have any knowledge on a topic when replying
(I will now exercise this rule)

I'm kind of with powerman in that the "jobs nobody wants" always rubs me wrong.  However, I think it's probably more accurately stated as jobs nobody wants "at that pay level".  We'd get a lot of US field workers if they were paying $30/hr.

This phenomenon isn't just a matter of illegals coming to the US, it has to do with a lot of complex things.  For example, depending on where you look the actual unemployment rate in the US is anywhere from 10% to 15%, which puts that number of people between 31M to 44M people who do not have jobs in the US.  That's obviously a lot more people than there are illegals.  Now, why are there so many unemployed people that "don't want to do any of those jobs"?  IMHO it's because they don't need to have a job.  If they're getting a free ride from the government (or some other entity, like Mom/Dad, cousins, etc...) there is little incentive for them to take one of the $8/hr. jobs when they can make more money sitting on their fat butt living off of somebody else. 

I grew up in a family who did just this.  For many years when my parents were still married they would sit at home all day and do nothing but watch TV and eat.  We were on welfare, food stamps, and pretty much any other government program you could imagine.  My Dad trumped up a "disability" so he could get his Social Security early and there you have it.  Both of my parents were perfectly capable of working, but they chose not to because they could make more doing nothing and scamming the system.
My Dad had 3 brothers and 3 sisters and guess what?  They all did the exact same thing.  They knew which doctor to go to in order to get their disability and they all knew exactly how to game the system.

So, I'm really off on a totally different subject, but the whole immigration thing is very complex and has many facets to it that need to be looked at.  Rather than simply saying they're doing the "jobs nobody wants", I ask the question "why doesn't anybody want the jobs?"  My answer is simply because people make more money doing nothing.

People are capable of working, but what jobs are open to them. You are right when you say they could work 8 dollar an hour jobs, but can that pay any bills? For those who are unable to get a degree and who do not have the skills to own their own business... the job options are really limited. I think a lot of people get discouraged. 

2013-07-17 8:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly We are talking about two different things. The pool of undocumented workers, which everyone will probably agree fill low wage, low education jobs, and the H1-B visa program, which is an existing mechanism for attracting highly skilled, high(er) wage workers. I am all for jobs for US-born citizens, but I'm also pretty sure most of these undocumented workers are filling jobs nobody else wants. 

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.

You are right, I'll confine my comments to what I know and can defend, the H1-B visas.

I believe rule #17 of COJ states that it is mandatory to not have any knowledge on a topic when replying
(I will now exercise this rule)

I'm kind of with powerman in that the "jobs nobody wants" always rubs me wrong.  However, I think it's probably more accurately stated as jobs nobody wants "at that pay level".  We'd get a lot of US field workers if they were paying $30/hr.

This phenomenon isn't just a matter of illegals coming to the US, it has to do with a lot of complex things.  For example, depending on where you look the actual unemployment rate in the US is anywhere from 10% to 15%, which puts that number of people between 31M to 44M people who do not have jobs in the US.  That's obviously a lot more people than there are illegals.  Now, why are there so many unemployed people that "don't want to do any of those jobs"?  IMHO it's because they don't need to have a job.  If they're getting a free ride from the government (or some other entity, like Mom/Dad, cousins, etc...) there is little incentive for them to take one of the $8/hr. jobs when they can make more money sitting on their fat butt living off of somebody else. 

I grew up in a family who did just this.  For many years when my parents were still married they would sit at home all day and do nothing but watch TV and eat.  We were on welfare, food stamps, and pretty much any other government program you could imagine.  My Dad trumped up a "disability" so he could get his Social Security early and there you have it.  Both of my parents were perfectly capable of working, but they chose not to because they could make more doing nothing and scamming the system.
My Dad had 3 brothers and 3 sisters and guess what?  They all did the exact same thing.  They knew which doctor to go to in order to get their disability and they all knew exactly how to game the system.

So, I'm really off on a totally different subject, but the whole immigration thing is very complex and has many facets to it that need to be looked at.  Rather than simply saying they're doing the "jobs nobody wants", I ask the question "why doesn't anybody want the jobs?"  My answer is simply because people make more money doing nothing.



So I'll take this as an excuse to go off topic. I had an employee, actually the first person I hired when I started my company. He was just finishing his BS in computer science. Bright kid, good programmer, and fairly responsible. As he was finishing up his degree he was only able to work around 30 hours a week. I told him that when he was done school I'd offer him a full-time job with benefits, assuming business was good.

He graduates, takes a month off over the summer, and we meet up for lunch to talk about the job. I had looked at comps for the position and region, and offered what I thought was a fair salary, $65k and benefits. He then tells me he's not working anywhere for less than $85k. I pay for lunch and tell him to have a nice life. I then hire someone for $55k and benefits who was more experienced and incredibly eager to work.

Oh, the one who I wound up hiring just went back to graduate school and is doing his Ph.D. in computational chemistry after becoming totally fascinated by the research we did while he worked here as a developer.

Some people feel entitled, some people still believe in hard work.

Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2013-07-17 8:17 AM
2013-07-17 1:39 PM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

2013-07-17 3:22 PM
in reply to: velocomp

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by velocomp

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Fact is.. Many teens nowadays are often unreliable with poor work ethic. They will just .. not show up. I know someone that has to schedule 3x the number of employees he'll need because only 1/3 of them will show.. the others don't even bother to call in. 



2013-07-17 3:25 PM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly  So I'll take this as an excuse to go off topic. I had an employee, actually the first person I hired when I started my company. He was just finishing his BS in computer science. Bright kid, good programmer, and fairly responsible. As he was finishing up his degree he was only able to work around 30 hours a week. I told him that when he was done school I'd offer him a full-time job with benefits, assuming business was good. He graduates, takes a month off over the summer, and we meet up for lunch to talk about the job. I had looked at comps for the position and region, and offered what I thought was a fair salary, $65k and benefits. He then tells me he's not working anywhere for less than $85k. I pay for lunch and tell him to have a nice life. I then hire someone for $55k and benefits who was more experienced and incredibly eager to work. Oh, the one who I wound up hiring just went back to graduate school and is doing his Ph.D. in computational chemistry after becoming totally fascinated by the research we did while he worked here as a developer. Some people feel entitled, some people still believe in hard work.

So I will follow suit, and explain. My father plastered pools in Vegas. They all knew each other. He started his own business.... then, everyone startedusing illegals and undrcut him on everything. No way to compete, except to hire illegals. That isn't the fault of the illegals, they were just filling a spot... it was the Americans hiring him... but now, you pretty much can't find a english speaking person on a construction site.

Now I live in Colorado, I have a couple of friends that are roofers... there are no roofers pretty much that are not illegal. American's get business, and illegals do the labor... but they almost get paid going rate. They make good money... difference is, they have no rights and no legal standing. And their pay is under the table, so they keep it all. American's can't compete, because they "take home" less money, and they have legal protection and may have to have benefits. There was one crew that worked for my friend... they came up every Summer... worked Sun up to Sun down. Every penny was sent home. One guy finally worked long enough he was going to go home and retire and live like a King. Had nothing to do with building a life here.

Just a small example of how it works sometimes. There are many many American's that would happily do the work... but American's have a cheap source of labor that have no legal standing to complain about anything. Employers can pay them a good wage because it is under the table, and Employers get rich doing it because they do not have to fear legal actions or benefits and "time off". They just take the next guy in line. American workers get screwed... they have to take the truely "menial" jobs at minimum wage if they do not have an education.... because it is the only thing that can get.

It's hosed all the way around. I've said it once, I'll say it again... we have illegal immigration, because we WANT illegal immigration. But we are cutting our own throats.

2013-07-17 3:33 PM
in reply to: velocomp

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by velocomp

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Ya... first real job I had was grocery bagger at the store they opened out in the sticks. I lied about my age and said I was 16. Made minimum wage at $3.10. Then I waxed planes for a charter airline... that was hard... got it by putting out flyers of me and my friend. Mostly my friend and I had our own Summer business cutting grass, landscaping, and shovelling what ever was dumped in the drive way. Can't tell you how many wheelbarrows I have pushed.

In the meantime I worked with my Dad painting in the Winter, and plastering pools in the Summer. I worked with him since I was 10. I stopped all that when I went in the Navy... and had plenty of crappy jobs, sometimes 2 or 3, until I got to where I am now. I always earned my own money. I can't even tell you of a teenager I know today that does that.

2013-07-17 5:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by velocomp

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Ya... first real job I had was grocery bagger at the store they opened out in the sticks. I lied about my age and said I was 16. Made minimum wage at $3.10. Then I waxed planes for a charter airline... that was hard... got it by putting out flyers of me and my friend. Mostly my friend and I had our own Summer business cutting grass, landscaping, and shovelling what ever was dumped in the drive way. Can't tell you how many wheelbarrows I have pushed.

In the meantime I worked with my Dad painting in the Winter, and plastering pools in the Summer. I worked with him since I was 10. I stopped all that when I went in the Navy... and had plenty of crappy jobs, sometimes 2 or 3, until I got to where I am now. I always earned my own money. I can't even tell you of a teenager I know today that does that.




In keeping with this thread about not having enough qualified candidates within the US and the teenage worker scenario, I offer the recent experience of my nephew. Third generation Californian, who graduated with a 4.4 GPA, a perfect 800 on the Math portion of the SAT, a perfect 800 on the Chemistry portion of the SAT and a perfect 800 on the Advanced Math portion of the SAT. His verbal portion was mid 700's. He applied to three different University of California campuses and did not get in to any of them. California is always bemoaning the lack of tech talent, but obviously the school systems haven't put two and two together to keep good students in the state. Given that we have contributed to the tax base for two generations to support the UC system, you would think he had priority along with his grades and test scores.

He ended up accepting an offer from the University of Minnesota where they will waive his out of state tuition and admit him as a Sophomore (credit for all his AP courses) to their Honors Program in Computer Science. He is choosing to stay for the full four years and double major in Business. They also have some great companies in the area where he can intern during the summer. Who knows if he will come back to California.

BTW, he achieved his good grades and awards while also working as a barista at Starbucks for the last two years to save money for college. One of their most reliable and always worked the maximum allowable hours on a student work permit. There are still kids out there that have a good work ethic.










Edited by SGriepsma 2013-07-17 5:50 PM
2013-07-18 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

Originally posted by SGriepsma  There are still kids out there that have a good work ethic.

I'll agree with you on that. Why do you think he couldn't make it into the Cal. uni system?

2013-07-18 10:12 AM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by SGriepsma  There are still kids out there that have a good work ethic.

I'll agree with you on that. Why do you think he couldn't make it into the Cal. uni system?




California, being the ever efficient budget managers (NOT!), is broke and has cut funding to the the UC systems which has forced them to look at Foreign students and out of state students with a higher priority because they bring in more tuition dollars. Of course you will never hear that expressed, but I was already seeing that when I went for my MBA several years ago. When I was crashing classes, I was told that International students had priority and I could have a spot if they did not want it. Keeps them coming back. Very frustrating for in state residents who would like to stay in the state and who have contributed to the tax base for years.



2013-07-18 10:47 AM
in reply to: SGriepsma

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by SGriepsma

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by velocomp

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Ya... first real job I had was grocery bagger at the store they opened out in the sticks. I lied about my age and said I was 16. Made minimum wage at $3.10. Then I waxed planes for a charter airline... that was hard... got it by putting out flyers of me and my friend. Mostly my friend and I had our own Summer business cutting grass, landscaping, and shovelling what ever was dumped in the drive way. Can't tell you how many wheelbarrows I have pushed.

In the meantime I worked with my Dad painting in the Winter, and plastering pools in the Summer. I worked with him since I was 10. I stopped all that when I went in the Navy... and had plenty of crappy jobs, sometimes 2 or 3, until I got to where I am now. I always earned my own money. I can't even tell you of a teenager I know today that does that.




There are still kids out there that have a good work ethic.


Definitely. You just have to wade through a pile of 'what's in it for me' to get to them. The person I wound up hiring who is now in grad school is one of them. I would be broke if I'd paid him by the hour - when he was stuck on a problem you couldn't get him to go home.

I did all those rotten jobs when I was a kid too, got my parent to sign working papers when I was 15. Bus boy, warehouse worker, cleaning boats, etc. My oldest gets the idea of hard work (he's in college for culinary arts), but not so sure about the youngest. Both are excellent students and never been in any trouble, so we're almost there
2013-07-18 11:16 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly  So I'll take this as an excuse to go off topic. I had an employee, actually the first person I hired when I started my company. He was just finishing his BS in computer science. Bright kid, good programmer, and fairly responsible. As he was finishing up his degree he was only able to work around 30 hours a week. I told him that when he was done school I'd offer him a full-time job with benefits, assuming business was good. He graduates, takes a month off over the summer, and we meet up for lunch to talk about the job. I had looked at comps for the position and region, and offered what I thought was a fair salary, $65k and benefits. He then tells me he's not working anywhere for less than $85k. I pay for lunch and tell him to have a nice life. I then hire someone for $55k and benefits who was more experienced and incredibly eager to work. Oh, the one who I wound up hiring just went back to graduate school and is doing his Ph.D. in computational chemistry after becoming totally fascinated by the research we did while he worked here as a developer. Some people feel entitled, some people still believe in hard work.

So I will follow suit, and explain. My father plastered pools in Vegas. They all knew each other. He started his own business.... then, everyone startedusing illegals and undrcut him on everything. No way to compete, except to hire illegals. That isn't the fault of the illegals, they were just filling a spot... it was the Americans hiring him... but now, you pretty much can't find a english speaking person on a construction site.

Now I live in Colorado, I have a couple of friends that are roofers... there are no roofers pretty much that are not illegal. American's get business, and illegals do the labor... but they almost get paid going rate. They make good money... difference is, they have no rights and no legal standing. And their pay is under the table, so they keep it all. American's can't compete, because they "take home" less money, and they have legal protection and may have to have benefits. There was one crew that worked for my friend... they came up every Summer... worked Sun up to Sun down. Every penny was sent home. One guy finally worked long enough he was going to go home and retire and live like a King. Had nothing to do with building a life here.

Just a small example of how it works sometimes. There are many many American's that would happily do the work... but American's have a cheap source of labor that have no legal standing to complain about anything. Employers can pay them a good wage because it is under the table, and Employers get rich doing it because they do not have to fear legal actions or benefits and "time off". They just take the next guy in line. American workers get screwed... they have to take the truely "menial" jobs at minimum wage if they do not have an education.... because it is the only thing that can get.

It's hosed all the way around. I've said it once, I'll say it again... we have illegal immigration, because we WANT illegal immigration. But we are cutting our own throats.

I think it is a mix of Powerman and Tony's posts.

Yes the illegal worker issues is there because it is cheaper for people to hire illegals. Even those that don't want to are almost forced in a way to hire them to be able to come even close to competing on bids. We have a client that bid a job to install fence for the BLM. He cut every corner he could to get a low bid in on 100's of miles of fence. The bid ended up going to someone who underbid him by 40%. The guy who own the bid was an individual, no official company and didn't mention much about where he was going to get his labor from. 

But at the same time there is a lot of Tony's post. I have extended family and know of lots of people just like the people he mentioned. One was dumber than a bag of hammers, had three kids, but I was amazed at how much she knew about how to get stuff for free from the government. She even went so far as to accuse someone she was staying with for free of physically abusing her so she could qualify for a free apartment. 

We make it far too easy to not work, couple that with low wages and where is the incentive? We had another client who was desperate for workers and was offering good pay but he works in the construction industry so he couldn't absolutely guarantee a full 12 months of solid full time pay. Everyone he tried to hire turned him down because they could get unemployment for 99 weeks and be guaranteed that paycheck. 

2013-07-18 12:13 PM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
I think some of what you see in kids today is a reaction to the reality that surrounds them. There are many who worked their butt off, graduated, and still weren't able to find a job. When that happens some people react with that kind of attitude. What's the point? I can work really hard and get nothing, or not work hard and get nothing. Might as well not work hard.
2013-07-18 2:00 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???

Originally posted by dmiller5 I think some of what you see in kids today is a reaction to the reality that surrounds them. There are many who worked their butt off, graduated, and still weren't able to find a job. When that happens some people react with that kind of attitude. What's the point? I can work really hard and get nothing, or not work hard and get nothing. Might as well not work hard.

Or that they were not handed one with their diploma? We were, and still sort of are, in a severe economic down turn. Things change. College is a business decision. What is the ROI? Some did not do their homework in their chosen fields. But that is not a blanket statement applied to all... get a degree, don't get a degree... but a bright, well rounded, motivated hard working person will always come out on top compared to those around them.

Even in the tech industry... that shed good high paying jobs... but not EVERYBODY stayed unemployed for 99 weeks. Many had brief stints without work, many did not. There are usually reasons for that. And I am not taking a hand out from anyone... yes I understand reality of bills and making more on unemployment that a crappy job... but then I would have got two. The people that stayed employed, are the ones that are ahead today. Even if it was a crappy interim job.

2013-07-18 2:37 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by dmiller5 I think some of what you see in kids today is a reaction to the reality that surrounds them. There are many who worked their butt off, graduated, and still weren't able to find a job. When that happens some people react with that kind of attitude. What's the point? I can work really hard and get nothing, or not work hard and get nothing. Might as well not work hard.

Or that they were not handed one with their diploma? We were, and still sort of are, in a severe economic down turn. Things change. College is a business decision. What is the ROI? Some did not do their homework in their chosen fields. But that is not a blanket statement applied to all... get a degree, don't get a degree... but a bright, well rounded, motivated hard working person will always come out on top compared to those around them.

Even in the tech industry... that shed good high paying jobs... but not EVERYBODY stayed unemployed for 99 weeks. Many had brief stints without work, many did not. There are usually reasons for that. And I am not taking a hand out from anyone... yes I understand reality of bills and making more on unemployment that a crappy job... but then I would have got two. The people that stayed employed, are the ones that are ahead today. Even if it was a crappy interim job.




Yes, and you have been taught in some way or another that working hard is a good thing, and it gets you somewhere. What I am suggesting is that culturally many of the young people of today don't agree with this lesson.


2013-07-18 2:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by dmiller5
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by dmiller5 I think some of what you see in kids today is a reaction to the reality that surrounds them. There are many who worked their butt off, graduated, and still weren't able to find a job. When that happens some people react with that kind of attitude. What's the point? I can work really hard and get nothing, or not work hard and get nothing. Might as well not work hard.

Or that they were not handed one with their diploma? We were, and still sort of are, in a severe economic down turn. Things change. College is a business decision. What is the ROI? Some did not do their homework in their chosen fields. But that is not a blanket statement applied to all... get a degree, don't get a degree... but a bright, well rounded, motivated hard working person will always come out on top compared to those around them.

Even in the tech industry... that shed good high paying jobs... but not EVERYBODY stayed unemployed for 99 weeks. Many had brief stints without work, many did not. There are usually reasons for that. And I am not taking a hand out from anyone... yes I understand reality of bills and making more on unemployment that a crappy job... but then I would have got two. The people that stayed employed, are the ones that are ahead today. Even if it was a crappy interim job.

Yes, and you have been taught in some way or another that working hard is a good thing, and it gets you somewhere. What I am suggesting is that culturally many of the young people of today don't agree with this lesson.

Agreed... but if I am reading you right.... I do not find justifications to why hard work does not pay (not saying you do that personally). That's the difference. If that is the mentality of the young today, then the only thing ahead of us is continued decline.



Edited by powerman 2013-07-18 2:44 PM
2013-07-19 12:47 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by velocomp

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Fact is.. Many teens nowadays are often unreliable with poor work ethic. They will just .. not show up. I know someone that has to schedule 3x the number of employees he'll need because only 1/3 of them will show.. the others don't even bother to call in. 

That hasn't changed, and that doesn't change the fact that those jobs are not available any more.  Also, there are a lot of good kids that want to work who can't get any sort of work experience.  

2013-07-19 12:57 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts???
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by dmiller5
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by dmiller5 I think some of what you see in kids today is a reaction to the reality that surrounds them. There are many who worked their butt off, graduated, and still weren't able to find a job. When that happens some people react with that kind of attitude. What's the point? I can work really hard and get nothing, or not work hard and get nothing. Might as well not work hard.

Or that they were not handed one with their diploma? We were, and still sort of are, in a severe economic down turn. Things change. College is a business decision. What is the ROI? Some did not do their homework in their chosen fields. But that is not a blanket statement applied to all... get a degree, don't get a degree... but a bright, well rounded, motivated hard working person will always come out on top compared to those around them.

Even in the tech industry... that shed good high paying jobs... but not EVERYBODY stayed unemployed for 99 weeks. Many had brief stints without work, many did not. There are usually reasons for that. And I am not taking a hand out from anyone... yes I understand reality of bills and making more on unemployment that a crappy job... but then I would have got two. The people that stayed employed, are the ones that are ahead today. Even if it was a crappy interim job.

Yes, and you have been taught in some way or another that working hard is a good thing, and it gets you somewhere. What I am suggesting is that culturally many of the young people of today don't agree with this lesson.

Agreed... but if I am reading you right.... I do not find justifications to why hard work does not pay (not saying you do that personally). That's the difference. If that is the mentality of the young today, then the only thing ahead of us is continued decline.

If we continue to take care of them, you are right.  I believe that if you stop taking care of them, they will "Get It" and work hard.  But if we keep re-distributing the wealth, then why should they work hard.

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What can you do? You can implement small but sustainable changes that you can happily maintain for the rest of your life. The changes might have more to do with lifestyle than food.