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2013-08-12 10:38 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by JoshR

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?




Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no?

You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it:

No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election.

Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.


You must not be paying attention to who is complaining about this NSA thing if you think it's purely a partisan affair. Go read the National Review and you'll find many conservatives defending it. Read the Huffington Post and you'll find many liberals complaining about it. You'll see that there are quite a few people who have been complaining about the Patriot Act, NDAA indefinite detention provisions, the targeting of Journalists by this and the previous administration, the NSA issue and many other issues affecting our personal liberty's. As was previously posted, the House bipartisanly almost defunded the NSA activities just a few weeks ago. It was a bipartisan effort to defund it and a bipartisan effort to keep it going so I think it's easy to see this is an issue that is splitting both sides.


Like I said, there are elements of this story that should concern everyone, and, as you pointed out, those legitimate questions have been raised. But this has, for political reasons, gone far beyond a reasoned discussion about the topic. While it's true that many people have asked for more information or raised serious questions but there is a large segment who isn't interested in resolving the issues or getting answers. They just want to keep this on the front page for as long as possible, no matter what the administration says or does. And if the administration doesn't spend all day,every day talking about this issue and nothing else from now until the next election, they'll get accused of covering it up or sweeping it under the rug. It's too bad because it is a legitimate issue, but the more noise they make about it, the more people will just get sick of hearing about it and stop paying attention.



2013-08-12 10:58 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by spudone

  It's time the public at large became aware of it.

Why? 

If my neighbors were to start disappearing and we started hearing about ordinary citizens  ending up in kangaroo court, then I'd be the first to line up and throw a fit.. 

But I'm really not interested in knowing the details about how NSA goes about catching the bad guys. In fact, I feel safer if it's kept under wraps. I'm assuming that those in the terrorist world know about it because some their efforts have been thwarted by this surveillance. 

Thank you. When I hear about one ordinary citizen who has been personally inconvenienced or wrongfully arrested as a result of this NSA surveillance, I'll rethink my position, but for now, I'm sticking to my story that this is just fodder for anti-Obama folks and conspiracy theorists. "Ooh, but by then it'll be too late, and they'll be marching us off to pre-crime detention camps.." I have no illusions about most of my personal data being "out there" already. The genie got out of that bottle a long time ago and she's not going back in. Until we convert our currency to gold, stuff it into our mattresses, and move off the grid, we will have nothing but a false sense of privacy no matter what we do. It's the price we pay for living in a modern society, and a choice we all made the minute we got ATM cards and gmail accounts.

And exactly how do you think you will ever find out or hear about "that" person?

Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

The same way other countries have made their country's government human rights messages known.. Family members  and friends of the ones who "disappear". 

2013-08-12 11:09 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

2013-08-12 11:27 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?

Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

For the record, I strongly oppose "stop-and-frisk" as well.  There's no question in my mind it's a complete violation of the constitution but many feel the ends justify the means.

 

2013-08-12 11:53 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.

The only one that seems to have a political axe to grind here is you. You seem to want to bring up religion because of Benjamin Franklin, and anyone dissatisfied with the government is anti Obama. Pretty convinced dismissal of anyone that does not agree with you.

Guess what, I was dissatisfied with the government when Bush ran it and ran "fear" down out throat as justification to invade the Middle East. Does not matter innocent civilians died by the 100s of thousands. Just as long as we don't have to stop shopping.

Playing Globo Cop is unsustainable. Giving welfare to the masses is unsustainable. I have always been a firm believer in "peace through superior firepower". But we had that decades ago when we bought our 5000th nuclear warhead. And all we are doing right now is trading the "military industrial complex" for the "intelligence industrial complex"... and I don't like it... and I still won't like it when Obama leaves office, and I still won't like it when the next puppet is put in front of us.

What we are doing to "prevent the next attack" is ludicrous. And how come we didn't stop the Boston attack? And why didn't we stop the Ft. Hood attack... or Sandy Hook? Just what exactly do you think we need to do to beat "fear"?


Edited by powerman 2013-08-12 11:54 AM
2013-08-12 11:56 AM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.



2013-08-12 12:01 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

Don't you know, presumption of innocence is an antiquated idea not suited to the modern age. Our founders did not know what terror was.

2013-08-12 12:14 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

Don't you know, presumption of innocence is an antiquated idea not suited to the modern age. Our founders did not know what terror was.

What's that mantra? "It's better to arrest and charge 10 innocent people rather than let 1 guilty one get away."

2013-08-12 12:16 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

Don't you know, presumption of innocence is an antiquated idea not suited to the modern age. Our founders did not know what terror was.

What's that mantra? "It's better to arrest and charge 10 innocent people rather than let 1 guilty one get away."

Dude... is anyone REALLY innocent?

2013-08-12 12:50 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.





The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?
2013-08-12 1:07 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.


The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?

I don't get it. On 9-11, America stood still. American's stood as one. I don't exactly get how it is somehow unique to a certain few. Do you know how many people I know that went and served in the war? Do you know how many I know that died? I live next to NORAD, the Air Force Academy, Ft. Carson, Shriver, and Peterson Air Force base. But ya, I have never been to New York, so what do I know?

We spent a TRILLION dollars on the two wars over a decade... and nobody over there likes us any better. And now, we have massive intelligence gathering in our own country, and we have authorized the MILITARY to use drones for survielence over our own country, and that we can kill American citizens without a trial and detain them indefinitely. I don't give a crap about Snowden, but it's wrong what we have done, and what we are doing.



2013-08-12 1:34 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

I have no idea went down before the couple was arrested. We don't know every detail. It leaves me wondering if there is more to the equation than what has been reported.. ? Who knows. 

What part of my response indicated that I thought what the idiot cops did was OK? I think i wrote... BAD DEAL.

If the cops were completely in the wrong then am guessing there will be more lawsuits flying about before this is said and done with... 

2013-08-12 3:51 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

I have no idea went down before the couple was arrested. We don't know every detail. It leaves me wondering if there is more to the equation than what has been reported.. ? Who knows. 

What part of my response indicated that I thought what the idiot cops did was OK? I think i wrote... BAD DEAL.

If the cops were completely in the wrong then am guessing there will be more lawsuits flying about before this is said and done with... 

I bet they were NEVER arrested.  That's just not how it works.  They may have been asked to come to the station if they wanted to have a receipt for the money, or MAYBE they were arrested for a minor traffic charge.  But it's just as likely that the story is wrong.  The proceeding that they were at in which their money was given back to them was a civil proceeding, not criminal.  Seizures by the govt. are civil matters. 

At any rate....I doubt their story.  I'm not saying the govt. has a right to the money under the circumstances.....but nobody does business with $1,000,000 in cash except people involved in illegal activity.

2013-08-12 4:23 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.


The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?

I don't get it. On 9-11, America stood still. American's stood as one. I don't exactly get how it is somehow unique to a certain few. .




Good question. I don't get it either. You're the one who tossed out the "your 3000 people" comment when I took offense to what I feel was someone's trivializing the number of people who died on 9/11 just because more people died in the War of 1812. I certainly never claimed to have a unique perspective on 9/11, only a different one from someone who had only watched it on tv from hundreds of miles away. Is that crazy? I've seen the footage of the Boston bombing a million times and seen the pictures over and over again. America "stood still and stood as one" then too, but I'd never presume to claim that that was equivalent to being there in person.
2013-08-12 6:04 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.


The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?

I don't get it. On 9-11, America stood still. American's stood as one. I don't exactly get how it is somehow unique to a certain few. .

Good question. I don't get it either. You're the one who tossed out the "your 3000 people" comment when I took offense to what I feel was someone's trivializing the number of people who died on 9/11 just because more people died in the War of 1812. I certainly never claimed to have a unique perspective on 9/11, only a different one from someone who had only watched it on tv from hundreds of miles away. Is that crazy? I've seen the footage of the Boston bombing a million times and seen the pictures over and over again. America "stood still and stood as one" then too, but I'd never presume to claim that that was equivalent to being there in person.

Great.

So yes, that is more than enough reason to spend $2 trillion on a side war, kill 100,000 Iraqi civilians and displace over a million more. Take 10 years to kill Osama, build the worlds largest intelligence agency, employ 1000s of Americans checking shoes and Granny's underwear, and spend billions yearly to monitor AMERICANS.

Government is the model of efficiency and integrity.

2013-08-12 6:38 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.


The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?

I don't get it. On 9-11, America stood still. American's stood as one. I don't exactly get how it is somehow unique to a certain few. .

Good question. I don't get it either. You're the one who tossed out the "your 3000 people" comment when I took offense to what I feel was someone's trivializing the number of people who died on 9/11 just because more people died in the War of 1812. I certainly never claimed to have a unique perspective on 9/11, only a different one from someone who had only watched it on tv from hundreds of miles away. Is that crazy? I've seen the footage of the Boston bombing a million times and seen the pictures over and over again. America "stood still and stood as one" then too, but I'd never presume to claim that that was equivalent to being there in person.

Great.

So yes, that is more than enough reason to spend $2 trillion on a side war, kill 100,000 Iraqi civilians and displace over a million more. Take 10 years to kill Osama, build the worlds largest intelligence agency, employ 1000s of Americans checking shoes and Granny's underwear, and spend billions yearly to monitor AMERICANS.

Government is the model of efficiency and integrity.




I can see that straw men are all you've got left, so I'm not going to play. Go back to going around in a circle agreeing with each other.


2013-08-12 6:44 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

I have no idea went down before the couple was arrested. We don't know every detail. It leaves me wondering if there is more to the equation than what has been reported.. ? Who knows. 

What part of my response indicated that I thought what the idiot cops did was OK? I think i wrote... BAD DEAL.

If the cops were completely in the wrong then am guessing there will be more lawsuits flying about before this is said and done with... 

I bet they were NEVER arrested.  That's just not how it works.  They may have been asked to come to the station if they wanted to have a receipt for the money, or MAYBE they were arrested for a minor traffic charge.  But it's just as likely that the story is wrong.  The proceeding that they were at in which their money was given back to them was a civil proceeding, not criminal.  Seizures by the govt. are civil matters. 

At any rate....I doubt their story.  I'm not saying the govt. has a right to the money under the circumstances.....but nobody does business with $1,000,000 in cash except people involved in illegal activity.

Per the court case "The Dheris were detained and taken to the NSP office in North Platte, Nebraska, along with the vehicle and money"

I'm not sure if that means "arrested" or not, but I would feel arrested if I were detained and taken to the police station.  

I do agree that there is certainly a likelihood that they were up to no good, but it's not unheard of either.  I worked with a guy who sold a house he owned free and clear for $250k.   He wrote in a stipulation on the offer acceptance that he would only accept cash for payment.

The buyers had to drive across town to deliver a quarter mil to him at the closing.  He was a little off, but not a criminal.  If the buyers would have been pulled over they would have had a fun time with the police.  lol

My business partner just bought $100k in gold this year too (I told him it was a horrible investment) and had it shipped to his work.  He had to drive 30 miles to his house with $100k of gold in his car.

So, there's a couple legitimate scenarios I have first hand knowledge of where people had a large sum of $ in their car.  haha  :-P

2013-08-12 6:45 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no? You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it: No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election. Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.

You seemed to take ownership of 9/11 by having to "walk by the hole in the ground". That's how I took it.


The threat of terrorism takes on more significance when you see the results first-hand versus watching them on tv and when you live in a place that is a likely target of terrorists. I'm sure for some people who live in remote parts of the country that Al Quaeda has probably never heard of, counterterrorism seems like a huge waste of money on resouces that they'll never benefit personally from. I certainly wan't "taking ownership of 9/11" whatever that means. Do you accuse people who served in Iraq of "taking ownership of the war"?

I don't get it. On 9-11, America stood still. American's stood as one. I don't exactly get how it is somehow unique to a certain few. .

Good question. I don't get it either. You're the one who tossed out the "your 3000 people" comment when I took offense to what I feel was someone's trivializing the number of people who died on 9/11 just because more people died in the War of 1812. I certainly never claimed to have a unique perspective on 9/11, only a different one from someone who had only watched it on tv from hundreds of miles away. Is that crazy? I've seen the footage of the Boston bombing a million times and seen the pictures over and over again. America "stood still and stood as one" then too, but I'd never presume to claim that that was equivalent to being there in person.

Great.

So yes, that is more than enough reason to spend $2 trillion on a side war, kill 100,000 Iraqi civilians and displace over a million more. Take 10 years to kill Osama, build the worlds largest intelligence agency, employ 1000s of Americans checking shoes and Granny's underwear, and spend billions yearly to monitor AMERICANS.

Government is the model of efficiency and integrity.

I can see that straw men are all you've got left, so I'm not going to play. Go back to going around in a circle agreeing with each other.

2013-08-12 6:50 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  I can see that straw men are all you've got left, so I'm not going to play. Go back to going around in a circle agreeing with each other.

Says the guy that wants to argue religion over Ben Franklin, and every one hates Obama. Undecided

 

Dude, seriously, are doing OK? You are normally not this irrational. I hope things work out?

2013-08-12 8:41 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

They were suspected of drug dealing.. 1m in cash stashed in a trunk.. with traces of drug on it? That's wasn't suspicious?.. and imho..  a bit dumb? 

The judge made the right call, the cops shouldn't have kept it, and she's going to get it back with interest. A bad deal, but I'm not sure what your point is. 

That example doesn't sway my opinion. 

I do agree it's dumb to carry large amounts of cash, but from what I understand all cash has trace amounts of drugs on it.  I think there was even a myth busters on that very topic.
So if you were to be driving cross country with your life savings in cash (for whatever stupid reason) you feel it's OK for the police to confiscate it out of suspicion and keep it for over a year and cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?  Yes the court system worked and she will eventually get it back, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place, IMHO.

I have no idea went down before the couple was arrested. We don't know every detail. It leaves me wondering if there is more to the equation than what has been reported.. ? Who knows. 

What part of my response indicated that I thought what the idiot cops did was OK? I think i wrote... BAD DEAL.

If the cops were completely in the wrong then am guessing there will be more lawsuits flying about before this is said and done with... 

I bet they were NEVER arrested.  That's just not how it works.  They may have been asked to come to the station if they wanted to have a receipt for the money, or MAYBE they were arrested for a minor traffic charge.  But it's just as likely that the story is wrong.  The proceeding that they were at in which their money was given back to them was a civil proceeding, not criminal.  Seizures by the govt. are civil matters. 

At any rate....I doubt their story.  I'm not saying the govt. has a right to the money under the circumstances.....but nobody does business with $1,000,000 in cash except people involved in illegal activity.

Per the court case "The Dheris were detained and taken to the NSP office in North Platte, Nebraska, along with the vehicle and money"

I'm not sure if that means "arrested" or not, but I would feel arrested if I were detained and taken to the police station.  

I do agree that there is certainly a likelihood that they were up to no good, but it's not unheard of either.  I worked with a guy who sold a house he owned free and clear for $250k.   He wrote in a stipulation on the offer acceptance that he would only accept cash for payment.

The buyers had to drive across town to deliver a quarter mil to him at the closing.  He was a little off, but not a criminal.  If the buyers would have been pulled over they would have had a fun time with the police.  lol

My business partner just bought $100k in gold this year too (I told him it was a horrible investment) and had it shipped to his work.  He had to drive 30 miles to his house with $100k of gold in his car.

So, there's a couple legitimate scenarios I have first hand knowledge of where people had a large sum of $ in their car.  haha  :-P

100k isn't 1M in dollar bills.. with out of state plates. 

2013-08-12 10:08 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Tony - in every interdiction I have been involved with where a large amount of cash was found with a sketchy story, the police also want to search the vehicle for drugs.  Now, granted, I don't know what the PC was for wanting to search the car to begin with, or if it was consensual, but once a large amount of cash or an amount of drugs are found the police will impound the vehicle to get it off the road and search it more completely.  If there is no immediate probable cause to arrest, then the occupants will be told that they are free to go, but their vehicle is not, and then they will be given the choice of coming with their vehicle or walking away. (obviously that only happens in cases where money and not drugs are immediately found).  I agree that it feels like an arrest or a detention if your car gets taken and you are from out of state.  Again, I'll bet they weren't arrested.

Is it right?  That's an arguable point, but it has been upheld as legal time and again.

One thing I know for sure, if we make drugs legal that's the end of seizing people's property in the name of illegal proceeds.

I've said it before....the "war on drugs" isn't a war at all....it's a money grab.

 



2013-08-12 10:14 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

We spent a TRILLION dollars on the two wars over a decade... and nobody over there likes us any better. And now, we have massive intelligence gathering in our own country, and we have authorized the MILITARY to use drones for survielence over our own country, and that we can kill American citizens without a trial and detain them indefinitely. I don't give a crap about Snowden, but it's wrong what we have done, and what we are doing.

Bingo.

I'm sort of appalled by you folks who think we should just let the NSA go about their business without oversight.  They classify anything that might require them to have a shred of accountability with the people in this country.  And when they talk to our elected representatives?  Well, the Director of National Intelligence has already been caught lying straight to Congress.  Why on earth would you think you can trust them to keep you safe?  They're the instrument of the executive branch or whomever's pocket they're in on a given day.

There are several circumstances where the law itself is classified.  Sir, we're arresting you.  Why?  Sorry we don't have to tell you.  Yes this has happened already with the TSA.

If you want to live in a free country you should be pretty concerned about the direction we've gone since 9/11.

2013-08-12 10:33 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by spudone
Originally posted by powerman

We spent a TRILLION dollars on the two wars over a decade... and nobody over there likes us any better. And now, we have massive intelligence gathering in our own country, and we have authorized the MILITARY to use drones for survielence over our own country, and that we can kill American citizens without a trial and detain them indefinitely. I don't give a crap about Snowden, but it's wrong what we have done, and what we are doing.

Bingo.

I'm sort of appalled by you folks who think we should just let the NSA go about their business without oversight.  They classify anything that might require them to have a shred of accountability with the people in this country.  And when they talk to our elected representatives?  Well, the Director of National Intelligence has already been caught lying straight to Congress.  Why on earth would you think you can trust them to keep you safe?  They're the instrument of the executive branch or whomever's pocket they're in on a given day.

There are several circumstances where the law itself is classified.  Sir, we're arresting you.  Why?  Sorry we don't have to tell you.  Yes this has happened already with the TSA.

If you want to live in a free country you should be pretty concerned about the direction we've gone since 9/11.

I agree, in principle, with what you have written and what you have quoted from Powerman.  There must be oversight.  There also is a need for classified intelligence gathering, as there always has been when we were threatened by a sworn enemy like Al Queda, etc.  I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't on either extreme.

2013-08-13 12:05 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by spudone
Originally posted by powerman

We spent a TRILLION dollars on the two wars over a decade... and nobody over there likes us any better. And now, we have massive intelligence gathering in our own country, and we have authorized the MILITARY to use drones for survielence over our own country, and that we can kill American citizens without a trial and detain them indefinitely. I don't give a crap about Snowden, but it's wrong what we have done, and what we are doing.

Bingo.

I'm sort of appalled by you folks who think we should just let the NSA go about their business without oversight.  They classify anything that might require them to have a shred of accountability with the people in this country.  And when they talk to our elected representatives?  Well, the Director of National Intelligence has already been caught lying straight to Congress.  Why on earth would you think you can trust them to keep you safe?  They're the instrument of the executive branch or whomever's pocket they're in on a given day.

There are several circumstances where the law itself is classified.  Sir, we're arresting you.  Why?  Sorry we don't have to tell you.  Yes this has happened already with the TSA.

If you want to live in a free country you should be pretty concerned about the direction we've gone since 9/11.

I agree, in principle, with what you have written and what you have quoted from Powerman.  There must be oversight.  There also is a need for classified intelligence gathering, as there always has been when we were threatened by a sworn enemy like Al Queda, etc.  I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't on either extreme.

And I say regularly, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I'm sure it's no different in this instance. LE have been walking the fine line since the country was founded. And taken purely at face value, at what the majority are trying to do, it is about catching the bad guys and protecting the good.

But, the bad spoil it for everyone, and LE have gone in front of the court time and time again and been told they got it wrong. And over decades, these matters get sorted out step by step. And yes, terrorism is a LE issue.

But every since 9/11... we have been moving at leaps and bounds. That one day it's all good, and the next they have a clean slate to do what they want. That's not good enough. There most certainly will be push back. And it will be sorted out by those that still think individual freedom and rights are a pretty good thing when it comes to every day life. And that is most certainly a BIPARTISAN issue. And that dieing in a terrorist attack is somewhere behind winning the power ball the same day you are struck by lightening twice.

2013-08-13 4:07 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Expert
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10005001001001001002525
Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by spudone
Originally posted by powerman

We spent a TRILLION dollars on the two wars over a decade... and nobody over there likes us any better. And now, we have massive intelligence gathering in our own country, and we have authorized the MILITARY to use drones for survielence over our own country, and that we can kill American citizens without a trial and detain them indefinitely. I don't give a crap about Snowden, but it's wrong what we have done, and what we are doing.

Bingo.

I'm sort of appalled by you folks who think we should just let the NSA go about their business without oversight.  They classify anything that might require them to have a shred of accountability with the people in this country.  And when they talk to our elected representatives?  Well, the Director of National Intelligence has already been caught lying straight to Congress.  Why on earth would you think you can trust them to keep you safe?  They're the instrument of the executive branch or whomever's pocket they're in on a given day.

There are several circumstances where the law itself is classified.  Sir, we're arresting you.  Why?  Sorry we don't have to tell you.  Yes this has happened already with the TSA.

If you want to live in a free country you should be pretty concerned about the direction we've gone since 9/11.

I agree, in principle, with what you have written and what you have quoted from Powerman.  There must be oversight.  There also is a need for classified intelligence gathering, as there always has been when we were threatened by a sworn enemy like Al Queda, etc.  I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't on either extreme.

this^^

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