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2013-07-22 11:07 AM


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Subject: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
I am looking at doing a Total Immersion weekend clinic but before ponying up the $500 wanted to get thoughts on it from those who have done it before, particularly those who were relatively new to swimming like I am.

For reference, I have been swimming for about a year and have taken a few lessons. I can swim over a consecutive mile in the pool (max is 2,000 yds but haven't tried any longer) and I usually try to pace myself and average around 1:40 - 1:45 / 100 yards.

So, what I am looking for is a) do you find the clinic worth it for you, b) did you see immediate improvement (e.g., in your balance), c) have you been able to continue to build off the clinic and see additional improvement. If you have any stats on average time before and after that would be helpful as well. I know that everybody is not going to be the same based on ability, build, experience, etc...just trying to get a feel for what people have been able to get out of the clinics before.

Thanks.



2013-12-18 9:54 AM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Originally posted by tb1000

I am looking at doing a Total Immersion weekend clinic but before ponying up the $500 wanted to get thoughts on it from those who have done it before, particularly those who were relatively new to swimming like I am.

For reference, I have been swimming for about a year and have taken a few lessons. I can swim over a consecutive mile in the pool (max is 2,000 yds but haven't tried any longer) and I usually try to pace myself and average around 1:40 - 1:45 / 100 yards.

So, what I am looking for is a) do you find the clinic worth it for you, b) did you see immediate improvement (e.g., in your balance), c) have you been able to continue to build off the clinic and see additional improvement. If you have any stats on average time before and after that would be helpful as well. I know that everybody is not going to be the same based on ability, build, experience, etc...just trying to get a feel for what people have been able to get out of the clinics before.

Thanks.




Good question. I was recently considering the same decision. Just a little background. I started training 6 months ago. Have done 2 sprints, a biathlon, and some running races. Continuously training. When I started, I was a "drag yourself through the water" type swimmer. Took 2 lessons from a TI coach, and am now a "glide through the water most-of-the-time-with-less dragging" type swimmer. Still need some technique work. Not fast, just able to keep pace over time. Swam in a 1000yd - 5k biathlon this past weekend and kept a 1:50/100 yd pace up. I asked my coach if he thought a TI weekend workshop would be valuable, and he told me no. He thought I'd be better off having periodic individual sessions and using the workouts he's giving me. I decided to take his advice. I did get the TI book and have begun incorporating some of the balancing exercises, which have been helpful. Without knowing you or watching you swim, I don't know what improvements would help you swim faster. My coach says swimming faster in practice (i.e., intervals) and working on form/technique over time will make me a faster swimmer. I tend to believe him. Hope you get clarity and do what's best for you.

Cheers.
2013-12-18 4:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
I usually refrain from posting on these threads as I am considered to be biased.

BAsed on the experience I had at my weekend workshop in Jan of 2010 I decided to pursue TI coach training 2 months later. In between those events I experienced the most blissful improvemetns in my swimming that I can imagine...every swim felt like the "best ever". Prior to the clinic I had completed Escape from Alcatraz swim along with many tris, usally an open water pace of 1:50-2:00/100m. My pool 100s were 1:45 as a repeatable 10x100 pace off of 2 minutes for example.

A 1:40/100yd pace for 1000-1500yd in a pool is now easy for me, I can do 100 repeats at 1:30 with 10sec rest for quite awhile when trained, and sub 1:30 repeats when I'm consisent. My 100 PR is down to 1:21.

When I'm not consistent.. i.e. now...i have swum 1x since September due to travel & illness. I was able to swim sub 1:30 100s easily with lots of rest at a comfortable effort...just due to technique not fitness. I keep getting faster every year I train and am far from reaching my potential in speed.

I do very little swim trainign volume wise relative to what others do and relative to what I was doing prior to my TI weekend workshop. If I were to simply increase my swim volume to 5k a week (low by many standards) I'd be even faster. I just really enjoy swimming now far more than I did before.

I thought it was worth every penny. However if you have a good local TI coach, for the same penny you can probabaly get private instruction that will help you improve even faster.

Here is my before/after. The before video was not planned...I had forgotten that I even had it.

Edited by AdventureBear 2013-12-18 4:43 PM
2013-12-18 5:20 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Just my unknowing opinion.

Just reading about TI and doing some TI drills helped my swim.  If it wasn't cost prohibitive, I would do it.  Maybe you won't gain much, maybe you will, but I doubt it would harm you in any way.

I'm just speculating (depending on how long it is) $200 bucks and I'm in.  Maybe even up to $500 if it's a whole weekend with lots of attention and pool time.

2013-12-18 6:22 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
I'll offer my opinion since I've been doing some reading about TI. I have a fair number of athletes that I work with that come into the pool that went through TI clinics, bought books or CDs. I tell them that they need to unlearn a lot of what they were taught if they want to get any better at swimming. The TI program gets people "swimming" but dramatically limits how good of a swimmer they can be. The main issue I see with the methodology of instruction is that it tends to produce a very shoulder driven stroke with limited muscle recruitment. The single biggest problem is the teaching of the hand/arm "spearing" the water. TI does a great job of marketing to the triathlon community. In my opinion, no it is not worth $500 for a weekend clinic.

To give you an idea of the way I was taught how to swim and the way I teach people how to train and swim, my best time in the 100 free was 46, I went 1:42 in the 200 free, 4:44 in the 500 free and 9:51 in the 1000. I was fortunate to be coached by some of the top coaches in the US and I have coached swimming for 20+ years. I've been fortunate as a coach to work with some national level swimmers and now some great AG and Pro triathletes.

If you have questions, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd
2013-12-18 6:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Tim, can you please talk a little bit more about where you think TI lacks in the "spearing of the water", and how in your opinion this should be performed? Thanks in advance.


2013-12-18 9:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Originally posted by tb1000 I am looking at doing a Total Immersion weekend clinic but before ponying up the $500 wanted to get thoughts on it from those who have done it before, particularly those who were relatively new to swimming like I am. For reference, I have been swimming for about a year and have taken a few lessons. I can swim over a consecutive mile in the pool (max is 2,000 yds but haven't tried any longer) and I usually try to pace myself and average around 1:40 - 1:45 / 100 yards. So, what I am looking for is a) do you find the clinic worth it for you, b) did you see immediate improvement (e.g., in your balance), c) have you been able to continue to build off the clinic and see additional improvement. If you have any stats on average time before and after that would be helpful as well. I know that everybody is not going to be the same based on ability, build, experience, etc...just trying to get a feel for what people have been able to get out of the clinics before. Thanks.

Short answer: Either spend the $500 on private lessons with a reputable local swim coach, or buy some videos or a book (like the recent Swim Speed Secrets that is getting good reviews (see the Amazon link).

Long answer: I learned how to swim in 2003, in fact I started triathlon as a forcing function to learn to swim.  And I completed my Olympic distance swim in 2003, and a few sprints the next year.  I was a OK cyclist, an OK swimmer up to 1500 yards, but I couldn't exhale underwater, I just used a nose clip), and a terrible runner.  So I took most of 2004 and 2005 learning to run via marathon training, then I signed up for an Ironman and returned to focus on swimming. 

But I struggled at swimming a straight 1000 yards without stopping, and a 2000 yard set exhausted me.  I certainly couldn't get past 2000 yards, and I was slow slow slow (2:10 T-pace).  I signed up for a TI weekend swim class, bought the videos, etc.  And after the class for several months I took a TI-focused master's class taught by a TI-trained instructor.  I successfully completed the Ironman with a 1:35 swim, about 5 months after the TI class.  I think I took the workshop in early December 2005, and completed IMAZ in April 2006.

TI is very much oriented toward beginner swimmers, but perhaps not zero experience swimmers.  So I was the exact target audience for the workshop.  I learned to be more comfortable in the water, I learned a number of drills, I learned to be more efficient in the water going long distances, and to conserve my energy.  I totally credit that TI class and the TI master's class with being able to swim the full 2.4 miles. After TI, I could swim 4000 yards in the pool and feel less tired than a before-TI 2000 yard swim.  I feel TI gave me exactly what I needed at the time, given my goals at the time.

It didn't give me everything. I didn't learn to exhale underwater and still had that nose clip.  I had to learn that on my own afterwards for my 2nd Ironman in 2007.  I didn't learn to be fast.  In fact, my fastest IM swim is 1:20  Most of my IMs are in the 1:20 to 1:30 range.  I didn't learn bilateral breathing.  I still don't do that for races, but I can now for slow sets.

So what are your goals, what do you want to improve?  If you're already comfortable in the water, if 2000 yards is not a problem for you, if you want to go faster, then my conclusion is that if you took the TI class, you'd ultimately feel you wasted your money.  You're not the target audience.

These days, 8 years after that TI class, and having finished 9 IMs and bunch of HIMs - I'm still slow.  I'm firmly in the camp that what I learned in TI to swim long distance with low energy use is something I need to unlearn in order to go fast.  In fact, this last summer I had been focusing on my swim with some success, abandoning more and more TI-isms.  I was just about to hire a local swim coach and then on 9/29 I crashed my bike, broke my collarbone, had surgery, and I can't swim until mid-January at the earliest.

I am really looking forward to re-learning how to swim, hiring a local coach to help me.  I really want to break that 1:20 time and swim say 1:10, and I strongly believe I won't get there with TI-style swimming.  I don't even know how much TI is left in my style these days.

(And I'm not a coach, I don't play one on BT, I'm not paid to have an opinion about these things, nor do I claim to be an expert.)



Edited by brucemorgan 2013-12-18 9:19 PM
2013-12-18 9:52 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
I had a similar background as you. Here is what it did for me: First I got the books and videos and practiced the drill in the pool. I have a very strong upper body, so swimming a mile, while not pretty, was doable. The first thing I realized doing the TI drills was that I had no balance. It took me about three weeks to get the balance and the breathing down. I went into the weekend workshop after this to work on these techniques, get some expert coaching, and have some motivation to keep swimming during the winter (my weekend was in early March). While I enjoyed the weekend, since I had the drills down, the coaches spent more time with other people (one lady was afraid of the water, couldn't swim, etc. and hate to say it but sucked up a lot of the coaches time). There were some things that I misinterpreted in the TI readings and videos that the coaches corrected at the weekend. Was it worth the $500? If I knew someone who was 'TI Educated', it would have saved me $500, but I didn't so that was the price. I'm not a strict adherent to TI anymore, but I'm forever grateful to the fact that it provided me a foundation to build up to my current skills.

2013-12-18 10:56 PM
in reply to: snappingt

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Originally posted by snappingt

I'll offer my opinion since I've been doing some reading about TI. I have a fair number of athletes that I work with that come into the pool that went through TI clinics, bought books or CDs.



We also "unlearn" people from a lot of what was self taught in the books, as I had to be "unlearned" as well. I was self-taught TI for 6 years before doing the workshop...then I learned what I needed t update...and have continued to learn since.

The weekend workshop asked about in this thread has a very specific curriculum which is described on the signup page, however any of our coaches trained int he past 3 years and especially our coaches trained in the 2.0 Coach training curriculum have many of the skills needed to help folks swim as fast as they want to be able to swim...within their potential. What a lot of folks don't realize is that Terry Laughlin trained 20 national champions of all ages before he shifted focus to adult onset swimmers.

Terry himself has won 6 national championships and at least 8 TI coaches have also won national championships as well. Not to mention scores of TI swimmers swimming endurance & marathon events at both fast and slow speeds. Dave Barra, a triple crown swimmer, and fast...is a TI swimmer & coach. So it's not TI that's the limiting factor...it's the ongoing opportunities for improvement beyond the weekend workshop.

IN fact...the IM Cozumel winner this year...trained with TI coach Joe Novak in Colorado Springs over the last 2 years, and with Joe's kids swim team. Can you imagine that? A pro triathlete training with a kids swim team...because Joe has the skills to teach him what he needs to know beyond the level that a weekend workshop would give him.

Until recently ... the past 3-4 years, TI offered no "continuing ed" in the form of workshops but if you check the listings, you'll find plenty of advanced TI workshops taught around the country.

The original TI books aim to help teach adults those things that lifelong swimmers tend to already know even if they don't know they know it. But there is a lot more to be offered. Many TI coaches offer advanced skill classes in propulsion & speed and those are very much worth taking IMO, if you live near one being offered...and if you feel the weekend workshop isn't the level you need.

However in all cases, you'll be better off getting private tailored instruction to exactly what your needs are by a skilled, recommended coach, simple because for the same dollar the needs are precisely addressed. (Naturally we'd prefer it be a TI coach).

2013-12-19 1:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Well, as you've said, Suzanne, you're biased in favor of TI and for well justified reasons.  I think it's pretty clear that TI is a great fit for some people, not for others.  It worked for you, and one IM champion (of a couple dozen last year), as well as people like me as I said.

And as was said earlier, TI is well marketed to triathletes, especially those of us with more money than time, looking for the quick fix / magic solution / swim speed secrets.  The website itself says (bolding added by me):

Although swimming is an essential life skill, traditional teaching and coaching methods have made it difficult to master because they teach an awkward, exhausting style of swimming. Total Immersion is a foolproof approach to teaching, brings results far faster than conventional methods and helps any student master a fluent, efficient and beautiful technique.

I'm generally wary of this type of marketing. It's only a step or two above those cheesy "1 weird trick to lose 15 pounds fast!" Internet ads.  Not all swim teaching is traditional, or awkward, or exhausting, and so on.

Anyway, one thing I learned from TI that I'm unlearning is having a long dead spot in the front of my stroke.  The swim types website describes this as an "overglider" which describes me perfectly.  It's also all through the TI videos.  I also need a much stronger pull; as I recall TI doesn't emphasize the pull very much.

X

2013-12-19 7:20 AM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

I did the TI weekend a few years ago. 

For me it turned out to be the right thing to do. I dont think it made me any faster, but what it did was make me more relaxed in the water, improve my style so I was no longer fighting with the water and helped insured that when I get out the water I have plenty of energy remaining.

 

Plus .... I now find it easy to swim long distances (10k sort of stuff) and my build up, eve after not swimming for months is now very rapid



2013-12-19 8:06 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Well, as you've said, Suzanne, you're biased in favor of TI and for well justified reasons.  I think it's pretty clear that TI is a great fit for some people, not for others.  It worked for you, and one IM champion (of a couple dozen last year), as well as people like me as I said.

And as was said earlier, TI is well marketed to triathletes, especially those of us with more money than time, looking for the quick fix / magic solution / swim speed secrets.  The website itself says (bolding added by me):

Although swimming is an essential life skill, traditional teaching and coaching methods have made it difficult to master because they teach an awkward, exhausting style of swimming. Total Immersion is a foolproof approach to teaching, brings results far faster than conventional methods and helps any student master a fluent, efficient and beautiful technique.

I'm generally wary of this type of marketing. It's only a step or two above those cheesy "1 weird trick to lose 15 pounds fast!" Internet ads.  Not all swim teaching is traditional, or awkward, or exhausting, and so on.

Anyway, one thing I learned from TI that I'm unlearning is having a long dead spot in the front of my stroke.  The swim types website describes this as an "overglider" which describes me perfectly.  It's also all through the TI videos.  I also need a much stronger pull; as I recall TI doesn't emphasize the pull very much.

X

I'm obviously slightly biased too, because of coaching for Suzanne, but I'm not a TI coach.  My swimming background was only as a high school swimmer, then working as an assistant high school coach under head coaches with better pedigrees than mine, including one's who swam D1 and clubs including North Baltimore Aquatic Club, so my experience is more the "traditional" methodology.

I don't mean to speak for her, but one of the things I've learned from Suzanne is that the TI methods have evolved a good bit over the years to address many of the criticisms from several years ago.  The current methods that she has conveyed to me address your last paragraph, Bruce.  As a swimmer's abilities progress, the focus of the training shifts to give them whatever is necessary to improve.  It's far from a one size fits all, long gliding, easy pull, approach.  IME, classifying TI that way may have had a degree of truth several years ago, but it's simply not the case anymore.  The current methods can do a good job of taking an adult swimmer, teaching them basic techniques, then layering on more advanced fine-tuning of those techniques, and a high level of fitness through more traditional hard interval training but combining it with a more scientific approach that analyzes data such as fatigue decay rates, stroke rate, and stroke counts to make sure the hard training is a productive use of the athlete's time.

Comparing what I often see posted about TI with my conversations with Suzanne, it makes me think of those old car commercials:  "This is not your father's Oldsmobile", only change it to "This is not your father's Total Immersion".

 

2013-12-19 8:48 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

I like Bruce took TI back when I first started tri'ing in 2004/2005. I took private lessons over a period of 6 months. I too can swim the distance and have done 4 IMs. Like him I have a dead spot in my stroke, over glide, and can do the distance but am slow. I have worked with 4 other swim coaches and spent lots of money since TI and still haven't been able to break through to be a faster swimmer.

Clearly TI works for Suzanne and her athletes.

For $500 plus possibly travel and hotel costs, what is the best use of funds to get most return on your dollar for swimming improvement?  I don't know but local private coaching is likely cheaper and you would be working with a coach over a longer period of time.

2013-12-19 8:54 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

... [EXCERPTED]  The current methods can do a good job of taking an adult swimmer, teaching them basic techniques, then layering on more advanced fine-tuning of those techniques, and a high level of fitness through more traditional hard interval training but combining it with a more scientific approach that analyzes data such as fatigue decay rates, stroke rate, and stroke counts to make sure the hard training is a productive use of the athlete's time....


I think it makes a whole lot of sense to take a swimmer who has profiency with the basic techniques (like me) and start to modify instruction to meet their needs (e.g., swimming faster). What you've said in the quote above is exactly what my TI coach has done. He is well-steeped in the TI methodology and terminology, but he is as far from dogmatic as you can get. He is a pragmatist. He believes that many of us "adult onset" triathlete swimmers are WAY too slow. He assigns good form work along with a lot of tempo trainer sets and speed work as well. He measures progress by looking at things like HR, stroke count, swim times, etc at different stroke rates. It feels like a nice blend of approaches.

That being said, I, too, am curious what the criticisms are about the TI swim form. Someone mentioned earlier that the spearing motion was a problem, and also it being too much wear on the shoulder.

2013-12-19 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Originally posted by PsyTri That being said, I, too, am curious what the criticisms are about the TI swim form. Someone mentioned earlier that the spearing motion was a problem, and also it being too much wear on the shoulder.

The traditional criticism of TI is that it produces swimmers who can do long distances slowly, and plateau at a slow speed that's difficult to overcome.  The drills and training produce a swimmer with an overly long glide, a pronounced dead spot in front, a low stroke count (good) but a low stroke rate (bad), a too-weak pull, and over-rotation.  Yep, that's me and Kathy from her post above.  In my training, we talked a lot about "steep and deep" on the hand entry, we talked a lot about "hanging the head"; after all Total Immersion originally at least meant actually that - being almost fully underwater during much of the stroke.  We talked a lot about stretching out in the water, getting long, we talked a lot about rotating to breath (lots of drills on that), we talked a lot about long, fishlike stroke (hey, that's the glide).

Don you say TI has changed from my 2005 class, and it doesn't produce that kind of swimmer anymore.  Well, hmm, well well.  I spent some time looking at the free videos on the TI site, and looking at the overglider videos on http://www.swimtypes.com/, and from what I see on those, the TI videos don't look like the TI training I had in 2005.

Right there on the TI homepage (http://www.totalimmersion.net/) is the "Would you love to swim like 95 year old Paul Lurie (black suit)?"  Well, no I wouldn't but he's not suffering from the older-school TI problems.  Putting aside that he's 95, the stroke rate is low and there's a bit of glide at front (not as bad as some) but still pretty good.  In the other homepage video to the right of that one, you can see a big dead spot on several of the scenes ("tune your kick" section), and a huge rotation.  It's hard for me to tell if that's a drill or intentional.  The very last 2 or 3 seconds show a much better swimmer, maybe that's putting everything together.  And the top-of-page video (with Suzanne in it) shows a pretty good form without overgliding. 

So yeah, it looks like the TI of 2013 is a different TI than 2005.  Maybe they should emphasize that more.



Edited by brucemorgan 2013-12-19 11:44 AM
2013-12-19 12:09 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

It sounds like you already have a decent foundation and should use the money towards private lessons.  I was a decent swimmer, took the course, and it ruined my swim stroke--I was too "good" of a student and started over rotating, and had a long dead spot in my stroke. Then had to take private lessons to undo all those bad habits.

I think it is more beneficial to beginner swimmers.  Like those that cannot swim more than a 500 or are swimming around a 2:05/100.  Just my thoughts...



2013-12-19 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by PsyTri That being said, I, too, am curious what the criticisms are about the TI swim form. Someone mentioned earlier that the spearing motion was a problem, and also it being too much wear on the shoulder.

The traditional criticism of TI is that it produces swimmers who can do long distances slowly, and plateau at a slow speed that's difficult to overcome.  The drills and training produce a swimmer with an overly long glide, a pronounced dead spot in front, a low stroke count (good) but a low stroke rate (bad), a too-weak pull, and over-rotation.  Yep, that's me and Kathy from her post above.  In my training, we talked a lot about "steep and deep" on the hand entry, we talked a lot about "hanging the head"; after all Total Immersion originally at least meant actually that - being almost fully underwater during much of the stroke.  We talked a lot about stretching out in the water, getting long, we talked a lot about rotating to breath (lots of drills on that), we talked a lot about long, fishlike stroke (hey, that's the glide).

Don you say TI has changed from my 2005 class, and it doesn't produce that kind of swimmer anymore.  Well, hmm, well well.  I spent some time looking at the free videos on the TI site, and looking at the overglider videos on http://www.swimtypes.com/, and from what I see on those, the TI videos don't look like the TI training I had in 2005.

Right there on the TI homepage (http://www.totalimmersion.net/) is the "Would you love to swim like 95 year old Paul Lurie (black suit)?"  Well, no I wouldn't but he's not suffering from the older-school TI problems.  Putting aside that he's 95, the stroke rate is low and there's a bit of glide at front (not as bad as some) but still pretty good.  In the other homepage video to the right of that one, you can see a big dead spot on several of the scenes ("tune your kick" section), and a huge rotation.  It's hard for me to tell if that's a drill or intentional.  The very last 2 or 3 seconds show a much better swimmer, maybe that's putting everything together.  And the top-of-page video (with Suzanne in it) shows a pretty good form without overgliding. 

So yeah, it looks like the TI of 2013 is a different TI than 2005.  Maybe they should emphasize that more.

 

ha!! bingo!  thats me too.

2013-12-19 4:00 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Originally posted by brucemorgan

Right there on the TI homepage (http://www.totalimmersion.net/) is the "Would you love to swim like 95 year old Paul Lurie (black suit)?"  Well, no I wouldn't but he's not suffering from the older-school TI problems.  Putting aside that he's 95, the stroke rate is low and there's a bit of glide at front (not as bad as some) but still pretty good.  In the other homepage video to the right of that one, you can see a big dead spot on several of the scenes ("tune your kick" section), and a huge rotation.  It's hard for me to tell if that's a drill or intentional.  The very last 2 or 3 seconds show a much better swimmer, maybe that's putting everything together.  And the top-of-page video (with Suzanne in it) shows a pretty good form without overgliding. 

So yeah, it looks like the TI of 2013 is a different TI than 2005.  Maybe they should emphasize that more.





Please go bang on their front door and make this suggestion. Paul Lurie is a testament to what TI can do for anyone who wants tUo learn to swim more efficiently...but as you so gently pointed out, does nothing for the market that I work with.

Unfortunately they seem to leave this latter type of marketing to individual coaches and it's very, very , very very frustrationg.
Please give me a pool of swimmers of any skill level...make them all faster than 1:40/100 race pace. Myself and many other TI coaches will have many ideas addressing propulsion, stroke rate, recovery etc. that can make all of these swimmers faster.

but...the past 20 years of marketing is what sticks in peoples minds and Terry, now in his 60s, is reluctant to address what he perceives as a small market (triathlete) as compared to health seekers.

Immensely frustrating for me, so I hang around in forums and pound on my chest to try to educate people 1 at a time. Sigh.

BTW, for anyone who suggested Ti teaches a method that is stressful on the shoulder and promotes shoulder driven swimming, nothing is further from the truth. I lead all of our new coach education trainigs and every single detail of what we teach minimizes shoulder strain, and focuses on core based swimming.

if you see people "over spearing" or shoulder led swimming it's not what they were taught, or at least, not what we teach our coaches to teach.

I will not back down on this one detail...people can have whatever opinion they like about Ti and decide if it will help them or not, but there is one thing TI does...and that is save the shoulder joint. FEEL FREE to tell people doing "shoulder led" swimming that appears stressful on the shoulder joint that they are not doing TI. Tell them you know better, lol.
2013-12-19 4:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Wait a minute...I posted this 5 MONTHS ago and didn't get a single reply and now there are 17 of them in the past two days??!!

Good advice though. Still something I might look into but I will say that after looking into this I did find a local TI coach and had several one-on-one lessons and it helped. Now it's a matter of getting the muscle memory in and then continuing to work on all of the other issues I have.

Edited by tb1000 2013-12-19 4:13 PM
2013-12-19 9:16 PM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Originally posted by tb1000

Wait a minute...I posted this 5 MONTHS ago and didn't get a single reply and now there are 17 of them in the past two days??!!

Good advice though. Still something I might look into but I will say that after looking into this I did find a local TI coach and had several one-on-one lessons and it helped. Now it's a matter of getting the muscle memory in and then continuing to work on all of the other issues I have.


Sheesh...you could have saved us all a lot of time!

Maybe you could share what you and the coach worked on in private to help folks decide between a weekend workshop vs. private lessons with a TI coach.
2013-12-19 9:18 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?

The new BT brings up some old and some really old posts that are similar to a post you read. I found some links to 4-5 year old posts under a current post.

Glad your private lessons helped.



2013-12-20 8:16 AM
in reply to: tb1000

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion weekend clinics - worth it?
Originally posted by tb1000

Wait a minute...I posted this 5 MONTHS ago and didn't get a single reply and now there are 17 of them in the past two days??!!

Good advice though. Still something I might look into but I will say that after looking into this I did find a local TI coach and had several one-on-one lessons and it helped. Now it's a matter of getting the muscle memory in and then continuing to work on all of the other issues I have.


I'll take the blame. I was poking around for info/links on TI, and I came across your "orphaned" post. No indication of whether you resolved your issue. I was just commiserating in case you were still checking the thread. Apparently, it blew up into a larger discussion about TI and its merits. It's been a valuable discussion with plenty of things to consider. In my opinion, it's been worthwhile. Thanks for planting the seed!
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