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2013-07-25 3:02 PM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
So they can brag about averaging 35+?

What % of work is being saved when you are drafting?


2013-07-25 3:33 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

Originally posted by GAUG3 So they can brag about averaging 35+? What % of work is being saved when you are drafting?

Around 30% if you can get tucked in nice and close (less than 18 inches) from the wheel in front of you.

When in a hard paceline, I may be holding 300-320 watts when at the front, and around 150-270 when in the draft.  If you're using a power meter you'll notice your effort becomes much more variable in the draft because you'll hit certain pockets where the draft is optimal (thus causing you to back off on the power to avoid running into the wheel in front) and hit certain pockets where the draft isn't so good (where you need to apply more power to avoid letting the gap grow)

2013-07-25 3:47 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Jason N

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.



2 feet? you're opening up a gap!

good group riding can be compared to intense interval work IMO. get on the front and go hard; move to the back and recover. repeat over and over. its fun when you get a group that likes to attack too.
2013-07-25 4:29 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
I was on a date with this girl about a year ago. We met near our offices and went for an after-work ride together. We were riding single-file down a street in Lincoln Park and a car pulled out in front of us. I was too busy checking her out to react in time and we had a minor run-in. I broke a spoke when my wheel jammed against her rear-wheel-skewer, but we were both fine. No damage to her bike. We had Tex-Mex that night and didn't go out again, there just wasn't any chemistry.

This story has nothing to do with your question....just something I don't think I've ever shared before.....carry on...
2013-07-25 5:26 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by cgregg

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

Or so you think ... Wink




Think of it as doing "intervals". You take your turn at the front for 5-8 minutes at maybe 80-90%, then fall back in line for a cool down before your time comes to do it again. Now multiply by a couple of hours. You'll get a great workout ( and have fun! ) I promise.
2013-07-25 5:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
dp


Edited by dan king 2013-07-25 5:39 PM


2013-07-25 5:37 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Clempson

Originally posted by Jason N

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.



2 feet? you're opening up a gap!

good group riding can be compared to intense interval work IMO. get on the front and go hard; move to the back and recover. repeat over and over. its fun when you get a group that likes to attack too.


Optimal drafting distances vary according to speed, # of riders you have in front of you, size of those riders, headwind/tailwind, etc.. there's lots of variables.

Because of this many noobs think they are doing a good thing by staying on the front for a long time. Actually, they are kind of screwing-up the guys who are 2nd and 3rd, because the 2nd and 3rd spots don't get the same benefit as the riders further back. So the people at the front are spending extra time in a reduced draft before it's their turn to pull. :P
2013-07-25 6:10 PM
in reply to: dan king

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by dan king

Originally posted by Clempson

Originally posted by Jason N

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.



2 feet? you're opening up a gap!

good group riding can be compared to intense interval work IMO. get on the front and go hard; move to the back and recover. repeat over and over. its fun when you get a group that likes to attack too.


Optimal drafting distances vary according to speed, # of riders you have in front of you, size of those riders, headwind/tailwind, etc.. there's lots of variables.

Because of this many noobs think they are doing a good thing by staying on the front for a long time. Actually, they are kind of screwing-up the guys who are 2nd and 3rd, because the 2nd and 3rd spots don't get the same benefit as the riders further back. So the people at the front are spending extra time in a reduced draft before it's their turn to pull. :P


agreed, every condition has its most optimal point. in heavy crosswinds i'll sit a few feet back and to the side of the wheel in front of me.
2013-07-25 6:28 PM
in reply to: dan king

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by dan king
Originally posted by Clempson
Originally posted by Jason N

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.

2 feet? you're opening up a gap! good group riding can be compared to intense interval work IMO. get on the front and go hard; move to the back and recover. repeat over and over. its fun when you get a group that likes to attack too.
Optimal drafting distances vary according to speed, # of riders you have in front of you, size of those riders, headwind/tailwind, etc.. there's lots of variables. Because of this many noobs think they are doing a good thing by staying on the front for a long time. Actually, they are kind of screwing-up the guys who are 2nd and 3rd, because the 2nd and 3rd spots don't get the same benefit as the riders further back. So the people at the front are spending extra time in a reduced draft before it's their turn to pull. :P

Which is also why the order of the paceline matters a lot too.  As you mentioned strength and SIZE of the rider should be taken into account because bigger riders produce bigger drafts.  Our teams best rider is about 5'3" and 110 pounds soaking wet.  Needless to say many of us need to "take turns" riding behind him not only because he spends the most time at the front, but the draft he produces is almost non existant.  After he pulls of the front, there is no shame in the next guy pulling off immediately afterwards because it was as if he was pulling the whole time too.  In the end, everyone still gets their workout in, but you do need to pay attention to the details if you want to make it work well.

2013-07-25 7:55 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by dan king
Originally posted by Clempson
Originally posted by Jason N

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.

2 feet? you're opening up a gap! good group riding can be compared to intense interval work IMO. get on the front and go hard; move to the back and recover. repeat over and over. its fun when you get a group that likes to attack too.
Optimal drafting distances vary according to speed, # of riders you have in front of you, size of those riders, headwind/tailwind, etc.. there's lots of variables. Because of this many noobs think they are doing a good thing by staying on the front for a long time. Actually, they are kind of screwing-up the guys who are 2nd and 3rd, because the 2nd and 3rd spots don't get the same benefit as the riders further back. So the people at the front are spending extra time in a reduced draft before it's their turn to pull. :P

Which is also why the order of the paceline matters a lot too.  As you mentioned strength and SIZE of the rider should be taken into account because bigger riders produce bigger drafts.  Our teams best rider is about 5'3" and 110 pounds soaking wet.  Needless to say many of us need to "take turns" riding behind him not only because he spends the most time at the front, but the draft he produces is almost non existant.  After he pulls of the front, there is no shame in the next guy pulling off immediately afterwards because it was as if he was pulling the whole time too.  In the end, everyone still gets their workout in, but you do need to pay attention to the details if you want to make it work well.

I sometimes ride with a group of 10-15 riders and I only have a Tri-bike (they all trust me). I've heard it several time "I hate being behind you when your up front and you hit the aerobars".   I've also experienced being a hard #2 .  One of the riders that sometimes joins the group is small but one of the fastest riders in town.  He has AB on his RB and after he pulls I last a minute tops!

Just because your with a group doesn't mean you have to play in the group all the time.  I'll sometimes drop back so that I can barely feel the draft and work to stay up with them.

2013-07-25 8:11 PM
in reply to: dan king

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by dan king

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by cgregg

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

Or so you think ... Wink




Think of it as doing "intervals". You take your turn at the front for 5-8 minutes at maybe 80-90%, then fall back in line for a cool down before your time comes to do it again. Now multiply by a couple of hours. You'll get a great workout ( and have fun! ) I promise.



you are taking wayyyy too long pulls


2013-07-25 8:39 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by dan king

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by cgregg

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

Or so you think ... Wink




Think of it as doing "intervals". You take your turn at the front for 5-8 minutes at maybe 80-90%, then fall back in line for a cool down before your time comes to do it again. Now multiply by a couple of hours. You'll get a great workout ( and have fun! ) I promise.



you are taking wayyyy too long pulls

depends on the group. a lot of local meetup groups around here have a designated average and a lot of people join them just to say they rode that fast and never get on the front. ever. i've seen the same people showing up to the same ride for 2 years now and never seen them put in any time up front. so if you only have 4-5 guys out of a group of 40-60 doing the pulling and everyone else sucking wheels the length of the pull tends to not matter as much.
2013-07-25 8:59 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Clempson
Originally posted by dmiller5
Originally posted by dan king
Originally posted by brigby1
Originally posted by cgregg

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

Or so you think ... Wink

Think of it as doing "intervals". You take your turn at the front for 5-8 minutes at maybe 80-90%, then fall back in line for a cool down before your time comes to do it again. Now multiply by a couple of hours. You'll get a great workout ( and have fun! ) I promise.
you are taking wayyyy too long pulls
depends on the group. a lot of local meetup groups around here have a designated average and a lot of people join them just to say they rode that fast and never get on the front. ever. i've seen the same people showing up to the same ride for 2 years now and never seen them put in any time up front. so if you only have 4-5 guys out of a group of 40-60 doing the pulling and everyone else sucking wheels the length of the pull tends to not matter as much.

How many people sucking wheel behind doesn't matter...could be 3 people staying back and not pulling or 500.  For the people that are rotating through the front, 5-8 minute pulls is still way too long and would probably only work if there were only 2 riders rotaing.  If there are 3 riders, then the 2 riders behind are effectively getting 10-16 minutes of rest before their turn comes back up again.  If there are 5 riders, you're getting 25-40 minutes of rest. 

It may work if one guys is just way stronger than the other riders and he takes 5-8 minute pulls while everyone else takes 1-2 minute pulls...but you won't find an effective training paceline where 4+ riders are taking 5-8 minute pulls.  They would be better off taking shorter pulls and rotaing faster or splitting up into separate groups of 2 so they get equal on/off time.

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