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Is swimming down river easier?
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 2013-08-23 11:00 AM |
Champion  10154    Alabama |  Subject: Is swimming down river easier?The newest IM venue announced to be in Chattanooga and the river swim will be down-river I've read people equate that to biking downhill. I'm not sure I agree with the comparison. I've down the Chattanooga Waterfront Oly twice and the swims were with the current. I distinctly remember thinking during the swim, "there is no current at all in this river!" but then I passed a bridge pylon zip by me really fast and realized I was swimming a lot faster than I realized. So my swim time was fast but it did not feel ‘easy’. It was just shorter than it would have been had the water not been moving. I supposed on a bike, if you maintained the exact pedal resistance going downhill as you do on the flats then you would not call downhill ‘easy’. But there is one difference, you can stop pedaling when going downhill and still maintain much of your momentum whereas in the river, if you stop swimming you come off plane and increase your drag and lose all your momentum. |
| 2013-08-23 11:01 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Member 285 | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? I've never considered it easier, just faster assuming you're pushing the same effort. the real questions is whether they let you out into the middle of the river where the waters really moving. i've swam in rivers before with almost no more speed then usual... |
| 2013-08-23 11:31 AM in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest |
Extreme Veteran 3025  Maryland | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? You guys are contradicting yourselves. "Faster and not easier" doesn't make sense. You are swimming the same effort, and producing a higher rate of speed. If you were swimming into a current would you say it is not harder, just slower? |
| 2013-08-23 11:36 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Veteran 378 The Cold North | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? It's easier because you're putting in the same effort for less time. Therefore, you have expended less calories and less energy to cover the same distance. |
| 2013-08-23 11:44 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio The newest IM venue announced to be in Chattanooga and the river swim will be down-river I've read people equate that to biking downhill. I'm not sure I agree with the comparison. I've down the Chattanooga Waterfront Oly twice and the swims were with the current. I distinctly remember thinking during the swim, "there is no current at all in this river!" but then I passed a bridge pylon zip by me really fast and realized I was swimming a lot faster than I realized. So my swim time was fast but it did not feel ‘easy’. It was just shorter than it would have been had the water not been moving. I supposed on a bike, if you maintained the exact pedal resistance going downhill as you do on the flats then you would not call downhill ‘easy’. But there is one difference, you can stop pedaling when going downhill and still maintain much of your momentum whereas in the river, if you stop swimming you come off plane and increase your drag and lose all your momentum. It's easier. You can float downstream with a current just as your example of going downhill on a bike, you shouldn't just sink if you stop swimming. Go ahead and swim 2.4 miles against the current and tell me going with the current isn't easier |
| 2013-08-23 11:58 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio The newest IM venue announced to be in Chattanooga and the river swim will be down-river I've read people equate that to biking downhill. I'm not sure I agree with the comparison. I've down the Chattanooga Waterfront Oly twice and the swims were with the current. I distinctly remember thinking during the swim, "there is no current at all in this river!" but then I passed a bridge pylon zip by me really fast and realized I was swimming a lot faster than I realized. So my swim time was fast but it did not feel ‘easy’. It was just shorter than it would have been had the water not been moving. I supposed on a bike, if you maintained the exact pedal resistance going downhill as you do on the flats then you would not call downhill ‘easy’. But there is one difference, you can stop pedaling when going downhill and still maintain much of your momentum whereas in the river, if you stop swimming you come off plane and increase your drag and lose all your momentum. If you stop swimming you just float along at whatever speed the river is moving at. It is without a doubt easier to swim down river in the sense that you will get there faster for the same effort level. |
| 2013-08-23 11:59 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? No question that the 2.4 miles is easier becuase you are not out there as long. My point is that one stroke in moving water is exactly the same effort as one stroke in completely still water....it is not 'easier' becuase the medium is moving' But on the bike, one revolution of the pedals on a bike going downhill is considerably easier than one revolution on the flats....unless of course you mechanically change gears to make it harder. Edited by Rogillio 2013-08-23 12:01 PM |
| 2013-08-23 12:02 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio No question that the 2.4 miles is easier becuase you are not out there as long. My point is that one stroke in moving water is exactly the same effort as one stroke in completely still water. Whereas, one revolution of the pedals on a bike going downhill is considerably easier than one revolution on the flats. I disagree. One stroke is not equal to one stroke. If you are swimming in a pool and speed up, maintaining the same cadence, you will be stroking harder. If you are going down river at the same speed as you would if you were in the pool, you are stroking easier in the river than the pool. |
| 2013-08-23 12:06 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Rogillio No question that the 2.4 miles is easier becuase you are not out there as long. My point is that one stroke in moving water is exactly the same effort as one stroke in completely still water. Whereas, one revolution of the pedals on a bike going downhill is considerably easier than one revolution on the flats. I disagree. One stroke is not equal to one stroke. If you are swimming in a pool and speed up, maintaining the same cadence, you will be stroking harder. If you are going down river at the same speed as you would if you were in the pool, you are stroking easier in the river than the pool. But you are changing my premise. It depends on where you measure you speed. Relative to the water, you are not moving unless you swim at X. Relative to the land you are moving at the speed of the river + X. It takes no less effort to swim the same speed X....regarless of the speed of the water. |
| 2013-08-23 12:08 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? no one is measuring your speed relative to the water, it is similar to cycling with a tailwind. |
| 2013-08-23 12:13 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? I'll go back to your original question about equating swimming with the current to biking downhill. If you get on your bike at the top of a hill and do nothing, gravity will take you to the bottom of the hill with zero effort. The steepness of the hill determines how quickly you get there. If you get in a river and do nothing, the current will take you as far as the river allows with zero effort. The speed of the water determines how quickly you get there. |
| 2013-08-23 12:17 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by dmiller5 no one is measuring your speed relative to the water, it is similar to cycling with a tailwind. But if you keep the same cadence on the bike, it IS easier with the tailwind (or going downhill). In the water, you keep the same cadence and the swim is NOT easier. I guess I get an "F" for clarity on this topic. Never mind. :-) |
| 2013-08-23 12:19 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by axteraa I'll go back to your original question about equating swimming with the current to biking downhill. If you get on your bike at the top of a hill and do nothing, gravity will take you to the bottom of the hill with zero effort. The steepness of the hill determines how quickly you get there. If you get in a river and do nothing, the current will take you as far as the river allows with zero effort. The speed of the water determines how quickly you get there. Absolutely. No argument at all. But swimming at the same number of strokes for minute is no less effort simply because the water is moving. |
| 2013-08-23 12:20 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by axteraa Absolutely. No argument at all. But swimming at the same number of strokes for minute is no less effort simply because the water is moving. I'll go back to your original question about equating swimming with the current to biking downhill. If you get on your bike at the top of a hill and do nothing, gravity will take you to the bottom of the hill with zero effort. The steepness of the hill determines how quickly you get there. If you get in a river and do nothing, the current will take you as far as the river allows with zero effort. The speed of the water determines how quickly you get there. Agreed. You will simply require less total effort over the distance as you will get there faster. |
| 2013-08-23 1:14 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio Bingo. You're comparing apples to oranges by attempting to compare the effort put out cycling downhill and swimming with a current. Would you find it harder to swim against the current? |
| 2013-08-23 1:15 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio But swimming at the same number of strokes for minute is no less effort simply because the water is moving. Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. As long as the downhill on the bike is not severe enough that you 'run out of gears', then it's really no different. If the downhill is that severe, then it would be like swimming downriver in a very fast moving current. One that is probably not too safe for swimming.  |
| 2013-08-23 1:18 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Rogillio But swimming at the same number of strokes for minute is no less effort simply because the water is moving. Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. As long as the downhill on the bike is not severe enough that you 'run out of gears', then it's really no different. If the downhill is that severe, then it would be like swimming downriver in a very fast moving current. One that is probably not too safe for swimming. well said. its physics. Your velocity is (very simplified) Vw+Vh = Vt. |
| 2013-08-23 1:20 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort if are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be. Edited by Goosedog 2013-08-23 1:24 PM |
| 2013-08-23 1:22 PM in reply to: Goosedog |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort whether or not you are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be. Exactly. Better said. |
| 2013-08-23 1:29 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Extreme Veteran 792 | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? HI GUYZZZZ!!!! IF A PLANE IS ON A TREADMILL RUNWAY, WILL IT BE ABLE TO TAKE OFF?!?! TOTZ CURIOUS! |
| 2013-08-23 1:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort if are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be. It can be easier only if you slow your cadence. You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier. Edited by Rogillio 2013-08-23 1:32 PM |
| 2013-08-23 1:33 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Goosedog It can be easier only if you slow your cadence. You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier. Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort if are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be.
...or you could change gears |
| 2013-08-23 1:37 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Goosedog It can be easier only if you slow your cadence. You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier. Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort if are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be.
...or you could change gears Yes, but only if you had a bike so equipped. |
| 2013-08-23 1:40 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by dmiller5 Yes, but only if you had a bike so equipped. Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Goosedog It can be easier only if you slow your cadence. You guys are aguing 10th grade physics and I am not disagreeing with that. My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. If you keep the same cadence biking it IS easier. Originally posted by JohnnyKay Disagree. I can use less force on each pull the same way you could 'soft-pedal' on the bike. (And the stroke length can be 'cut' if you want to argue that you'd have to pull harder to maintain cadence.) Or I can hold the same effort and move faster--in either medium. Let me try. If you put out 250 watts on the bike, your effort is the same whether you are going uphill or downhill. Similarly, if you could measure swim efforts in watts, you swimming at XXX watts is the same effort if are swimming down or up current. So, swimming down current doesn't have to be easier, but it can be.
...or you could change gears Are you talking about a gentle current or a waterfall? Multiple gears are fairly common nowadays. |
| 2013-08-23 1:43 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Is swimming down river easier? Originally posted by Rogillio My point is, if you keep the same cadence swimming it is NOT easier. I don't think this is accurate. Let's say you run 100 yds at a given turnover rate. Now, using the same turnover rate, you run that 100 yds on one of those people mover things at the airport. Which would you say is easier? |
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