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2013-09-09 11:24 PM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by qrkid

Originally posted by morey000

<p>
Originally posted by pnwdan The best way to get faster quickly without increasing training is to loose weight, especially if you are carrying extra fat.
</p><p> </p><p>Roughly, 1lb = 2 sec/mi.  soooo- 1lb = 1min for a marathon.  Not that the OP looks like he's got much to lose.</p><p> </p><p>I wish I had read this thread 3 years ago.  eh, I probably wouldn't have believed it anyway.  now- I'm a convert.  </p>



at what point is this no longer valid? Like you said. The OP does not look like he has much to lose.
There has to be a point were losing weight is a negative.


I think it stops being valid around a BMI of 20.

In my experience, I improve by closer to 3 seconds per pound lost, mostly because Ive lost mostly jiggly fat. Fat slows you down more than muscle. Try running while holding a half full water balloon to get a feel for whats going on.

Also, heavy things resonate at a lower frequency, which translates to lower cadence.

My BMI is >25 so I think about this stuff too much.


2013-09-09 11:27 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Yeah. My long run prior to the 50k was 20 miles. The 50k was the McKenzie River ultra. I'm Adam Southard, btw.

And 50k is 31 miles, damn it. I felt that last mile very deeply.

I really was only trying to say to a beginning runner that he certainly needs to add more volume from where he's at but it's possible to overdo it and you'll get slower. And, I'm speaking from experience. If you look me up my slowest half marathon was my first one and my fastest was my 2nd. I actually got slower between Hazel Dell & Eugene by 3 minutes because I was trying to add speed by adding volume.

I really was just trying to say that there's a lot of experienced people on this thread and it's possible to run yourself into the ground a bit. I probably bit off more than I could chew my first year out of the gate.

Here's my first year:

2012 Silver Falls half marathon (my longest run before then had been 7.5 miles - which was 2 weeks prior
2013 Hazel Dell Half
2013 Eugene Half
2013 July Hagg Lake Sprint
2013 Wildwood Trail Half
2013 Blue Lake Midsummer Duathlon
2013 McKenzie Ultra

and - Oct 26th - Columbia Gorge Marathon.

I'll be taking a few months just to train not strain after that.
2013-09-09 11:28 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Response to Left Brain

"And my point is that running adaptations take a looong time....think 2 or 3 years. One long slow run is just not part of the discussion. Run more, mostly slow, and you will get faster.

The other thing is...... are you sure you did a 50K? That's 30 miles. You said your long run was 20.....I'm just saying."



Yeah. My long run prior to the 50k was 20 miles. The 50k was the McKenzie River ultra. I'm Adam Southard, btw.

And 50k is 31 miles, damn it. I felt that last mile very deeply.


I really was only trying to say to a beginning runner that he certainly needs to add more volume from where he's at but it's possible to overdo it and you'll get slower. And, I'm speaking from experience. If you look me up my slowest half marathon was my first one and my fastest was my 2nd. I actually got slower between Hazel Dell & Eugene by 3 minutes because I was trying to add speed by adding volume.

I really was just trying to say that there's a lot of experienced people on this thread and it's possible to run yourself into the ground a bit. I probably bit off more than I could chew my first year out of the gate.

Here's my first year:

2012 Silver Falls half marathon (my longest run before then had been 7.5 miles - which was 2 weeks prior
2013 Hazel Dell Half
2013 Eugene Half
2013 July Hagg Lake Sprint
2013 Wildwood Trail Half
2013 Blue Lake Midsummer Duathlon
2013 McKenzie Ultra

and - Oct 26th - Columbia Gorge Marathon.

I'll be taking a few months just to train not strain after that.

Edited by adelsud 2013-09-09 11:31 PM
2013-09-09 11:56 PM
in reply to: adelsud

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed

Originally posted by adelsud Response to Left Brain "And my point is that running adaptations take a looong time....think 2 or 3 years. One long slow run is just not part of the discussion. Run more, mostly slow, and you will get faster. The other thing is...... are you sure you did a 50K? That's 30 miles. You said your long run was 20.....I'm just saying." Yeah. My long run prior to the 50k was 20 miles. The 50k was the McKenzie River ultra. I'm Adam Southard, btw. And 50k is 31 miles, damn it. I felt that last mile very deeply. I really was only trying to say to a beginning runner that he certainly needs to add more volume from where he's at but it's possible to overdo it and you'll get slower. And, I'm speaking from experience. If you look me up my slowest half marathon was my first one and my fastest was my 2nd. I actually got slower between Hazel Dell & Eugene by 3 minutes because I was trying to add speed by adding volume. I really was just trying to say that there's a lot of experienced people on this thread and it's possible to run yourself into the ground a bit. I probably bit off more than I could chew my first year out of the gate. Here's my first year: 2012 Silver Falls half marathon (my longest run before then had been 7.5 miles - which was 2 weeks prior 2013 Hazel Dell Half 2013 Eugene Half 2013 July Hagg Lake Sprint 2013 Wildwood Trail Half 2013 Blue Lake Midsummer Duathlon 2013 McKenzie Ultra and - Oct 26th - Columbia Gorge Marathon. I'll be taking a few months just to train not strain after that.

OK, but without times that really doesn't mean anything. 

2013-09-10 12:04 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by adelsud Response to Left Brain "And my point is that running adaptations take a looong time....think 2 or 3 years. One long slow run is just not part of the discussion. Run more, mostly slow, and you will get faster. The other thing is...... are you sure you did a 50K? That's 30 miles. You said your long run was 20.....I'm just saying." Yeah. My long run prior to the 50k was 20 miles. The 50k was the McKenzie River ultra. I'm Adam Southard, btw. And 50k is 31 miles, damn it. I felt that last mile very deeply. I really was only trying to say to a beginning runner that he certainly needs to add more volume from where he's at but it's possible to overdo it and you'll get slower. And, I'm speaking from experience. If you look me up my slowest half marathon was my first one and my fastest was my 2nd. I actually got slower between Hazel Dell & Eugene by 3 minutes because I was trying to add speed by adding volume. I really was just trying to say that there's a lot of experienced people on this thread and it's possible to run yourself into the ground a bit. I probably bit off more than I could chew my first year out of the gate. Here's my first year: 2012 Silver Falls half marathon (my longest run before then had been 7.5 miles - which was 2 weeks prior 2013 Hazel Dell Half 2013 Eugene Half 2013 July Hagg Lake Sprint 2013 Wildwood Trail Half 2013 Blue Lake Midsummer Duathlon 2013 McKenzie Ultra and - Oct 26th - Columbia Gorge Marathon. I'll be taking a few months just to train not strain after that.

OK, but without times that really doesn't mean anything. 




Dude. I said, I added volume & got slower as a result between two comparable races (Hazel Dell & Eugene - both road races, both pretty flat courses).

Silver Falls Half: 2:13
Hazel Dell Half: 1:40
Eugen Half: 1:43
Wildwood Half: 1:50

Wildwood was a very hilly trail run so I got even slower but they're not comparable courses.
2013-09-10 12:58 AM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by qrkid

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by pnwdan The best way to get faster quickly without increasing training is to loose weight, especially if you are carrying extra fat.


Roughly, 1lb = 2 sec/mi.  soooo- 1lb = 1min for a marathon.  Not that the OP looks like he's got much to lose.

I wish I had read this thread 3 years ago.  eh, I probably wouldn't have believed it anyway.  now- I'm a convert.

at what point is this no longer valid? Like you said. The OP does not look like he has much to lose.
There has to be a point were losing weight is a negative.


If focus is purely on running then there's a lot to be shed, also for OP, not just excess body fat down to some sub 10% but also upper body muscle.

Shedding weight will also help on the bike, but loosing upper body strength will penalise you in the swim, you need to find the sweet spot.


2013-09-10 6:23 AM
in reply to: adelsud

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by adelsud

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by adelsud Response to Left Brain "And my point is that running adaptations take a looong time....think 2 or 3 years. One long slow run is just not part of the discussion. Run more, mostly slow, and you will get faster. The other thing is...... are you sure you did a 50K? That's 30 miles. You said your long run was 20.....I'm just saying." Yeah. My long run prior to the 50k was 20 miles. The 50k was the McKenzie River ultra. I'm Adam Southard, btw. And 50k is 31 miles, damn it. I felt that last mile very deeply. I really was only trying to say to a beginning runner that he certainly needs to add more volume from where he's at but it's possible to overdo it and you'll get slower. And, I'm speaking from experience. If you look me up my slowest half marathon was my first one and my fastest was my 2nd. I actually got slower between Hazel Dell & Eugene by 3 minutes because I was trying to add speed by adding volume. I really was just trying to say that there's a lot of experienced people on this thread and it's possible to run yourself into the ground a bit. I probably bit off more than I could chew my first year out of the gate. Here's my first year: 2012 Silver Falls half marathon (my longest run before then had been 7.5 miles - which was 2 weeks prior 2013 Hazel Dell Half 2013 Eugene Half 2013 July Hagg Lake Sprint 2013 Wildwood Trail Half 2013 Blue Lake Midsummer Duathlon 2013 McKenzie Ultra and - Oct 26th - Columbia Gorge Marathon. I'll be taking a few months just to train not strain after that.

OK, but without times that really doesn't mean anything. 




Dude. I said, I added volume & got slower as a result between two comparable races (Hazel Dell & Eugene - both road races, both pretty flat courses).

Silver Falls Half: 2:13
Hazel Dell Half: 1:40
Eugen Half: 1:43
Wildwood Half: 1:50

Wildwood was a very hilly trail run so I got even slower but they're not comparable courses.


Here is the thing. if you put it into context about people telling the OP to just run slow. He runs 2x/week at the moment. The majority of the people will agree that at some point you have to do various pace running, but when running 2x/week that point is not now. Nobody who has any sort of understanding about run training will advocate only slow running. There is a time and a place for all paces of running but not when running 2x/week.

In your case. I find it very hard to believe that you ran 3min slower over the HM distance because you added volume. Your races were 1 month apart. You are not going to see an adaption to a new training load in that amount of time.(You might actually go slower because you are tired from the new training load. Maybe that was why you went slower) Adding more volume in a sensible and timely fashion is not going to slow you down over the HM. Period. You also said in an earlier post that you do not really go over 40mpw. That is not high volume for the HM distance. What was your volume prior to the 1st race and what did it become after that race.
2013-09-10 7:57 AM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed

Originally posted by qrkid  Here is the thing. if you put it into context about people telling the OP to just run slow. He runs 2x/week at the moment. The majority of the people will agree that at some point you have to do various pace running, but when running 2x/week that point is not now. Nobody who has any sort of understanding about run training will advocate only slow running. There is a time and a place for all paces of running but not when running 2x/week. 

And this is the part that people seem to gloss over during the "run slowly" threads.  To improve as a runner you need to add volume, and doing so at a slower pace is the best method to achieve that goal.  But at some point, when prepping for races, you will add faster runs into your training routine.  If the OP is racing Sprints next year, and builds a solid base over the winter, then there is no reason not to include faster runs next season.

I am far from an expert, but I don't agree with LB on the idea of running slowly for 2 years.  IMO, you do not need to avoid running faster, and too many people fear they will break.  You just need to do it in a planned and smart manner (after building a base) - neither of which I have managed to do, but I'm trying.  Wink

2013-09-10 8:20 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by qrkid  Here is the thing. if you put it into context about people telling the OP to just run slow. He runs 2x/week at the moment. The majority of the people will agree that at some point you have to do various pace running, but when running 2x/week that point is not now. Nobody who has any sort of understanding about run training will advocate only slow running. There is a time and a place for all paces of running but not when running 2x/week. 

And this is the part that people seem to gloss over during the "run slowly" threads.  To improve as a runner you need to add volume, and doing so at a slower pace is the best method to achieve that goal.  But at some point, when prepping for races, you will add faster runs into your training routine.  If the OP is racing Sprints next year, and builds a solid base over the winter, then there is no reason not to include faster runs next season.

I am far from an expert, but I don't agree with LB on the idea of running slowly for 2 years.  IMO, you do not need to avoid running faster, and too many people fear they will break.  You just need to do it in a planned and smart manner (after building a base) - neither of which I have managed to do, but I'm trying.  Wink




I agree with this^^^^^^^^^, wholeheartedly. (And don't we all need to plan 'it' a bit smarter, I know I do...)

And BTW, can't remember who said it but 50K is most definitely 31 miles and I felt that last mile much, much more than any other mile...And my LR prior to that 'race' was 16 miles, but I did do 2 of them in one day to equate the distance (ran to and from work on a half day-but kept it really easy and took rest whenever I needed it for a few minutes).

Lastly, I know of no specifics on how much faster one would be by losing weight and achieving a better race BMI. It seems very individual and when runners are very thin, there can definitely be a trade off in loss of some strength. Most distance runners and elite middle distance runners are twigs, though.
You don't see much upper body on them...

The only other thing that I'll say is that it should not be thought of as 'running slowly'. The correct pace is 'easy'. Another pace is 'recovery' and they are not the same. When adding volume, easy should be so that the second half of the run is able to be completed as the first half, and still 'easy'. One has to start out at a pace that is easier than easy to achieve that. Recovery is for the day after harder running efforts. Very, very slow and ideally with a high cadence to minimize landing shock (ie 190 step/min). When multisport training, a swim or easy bike is a good place to take the place of a recovery run day.

There is little utility in practicing running slowly. If you are able to hold easy pace as you increase mileage, there is a point when you need to do some faster running ie multipace training. I personally think there is a place for some reps/strides and LT year round.

This is a much better discussion, and more civil, than other threads regarding this topic than I have seen in the past.
2013-09-10 8:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by dtoce


I agree with this^^^^^^^^^, wholeheartedly. (And don't we all need to plan 'it' a bit smarter, I know I do...)

And BTW, can't remember who said it but 50K is most definitely 31 miles and I felt that last mile much, much more than any other mile...And my LR prior to that 'race' was 16 miles, but I did do 2 of them in one day to equate the distance (ran to and from work on a half day-but kept it really easy and took rest whenever I needed it for a few minutes).

Lastly, I know of no specifics on how much faster one would be by losing weight and achieving a better race BMI. It seems very individual and when runners are very thin, there can definitely be a trade off in loss of some strength. Most distance runners and elite middle distance runners are twigs, though.
You don't see much upper body on them...

The only other thing that I'll say is that it should not be thought of as 'running slowly'. The correct pace is 'easy'. Another pace is 'recovery' and they are not the same. When adding volume, easy should be so that the second half of the run is able to be completed as the first half, and still 'easy'. One has to start out at a pace that is easier than easy to achieve that. Recovery is for the day after harder running efforts. Very, very slow and ideally with a high cadence to minimize landing shock (ie 190 step/min). When multisport training, a swim or easy bike is a good place to take the place of a recovery run day.

There is little utility in practicing running slowly. If you are able to hold easy pace as you increase mileage, there is a point when you need to do some faster running ie multipace training. I personally think there is a place for some reps/strides and LT year round.

This is a much better discussion, and more civil, than other threads regarding this topic than I have seen in the past.



you are all eejits. You gotta run minimum 100mpw and 92.33% of that has to be VO2 pace or quicker.

There you go. Took care of the bolded part for you

Edited by qrkid 2013-09-10 8:35 AM
2013-09-10 8:50 AM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
This article:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-5k-puzzle?page=si...

made a ton of sense to me.

Esp as the events I am looking at have a run of between 5-10k


2013-09-10 8:53 AM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
You guys/gals crack me up. Really. If we were all sitting face-to-face and having a discussion, it would be a very civil conversation.

Different philosphies of running are out there. Maybe some people feel threatened when the ideas that underpin their VERY hard and committed long-term training programs are disagreed with. Not necessary. It's all good food for thought. This is about the exchange of ideas and finding something that works for you, based on a reasonable rationale. Everyone has to find their own way.

I, for one, am getting some clarity on the CONCEPTS thanks to the back-and-forth, and I appreciate that. I'm going to have to experiment to to get the PARTICULARS in place. Maybe get a coach in the future, but for now, I'm fine on my own.

1: remember that this is a fun/voluntary activity, not a job
2: minimize likelihood of injury, and listen to my body
3: think long-term benefits. building a base now will pay off dividends down the road
4. stop eating so much pizza!

For now, I'm going to build a base with more frequent, "easy" not "slow" running, and continue working on form. Probably find some other runners locally to train with to keep things interesting and social. In the short term, closer to races, I'll increase the challenge within reason (e.g., tempos, strides, etc.) to help with race readiness. Log workouts over time to track progress and whether the plan is "working". Note when too much is too much. Be flexibile. Hold off on more intensive sessions until I've got a better base to help withstand the possibility of injury.

"The OP" (a.k.a. Gary)
2013-09-10 9:38 AM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: Improving my running speed
Originally posted by qrkid
you are all eejits. You gotta run minimum 100mpw and 92.33% of that has to be VO2 pace or quicker.

There you go. Took care of the bolded part for you


funny stuff, if I knew how to do red ink on this new system, I'd have changed the color...



And best of luck to you, Gary the OP, as you venture down the course of triathlon training and racing.
Remember to give back to the community things you've learned along the way...
Dale
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