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IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling (Page 2)
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 2013-09-08 11:33 PM in reply to: kmac1346 |
 81 |  Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From CyclingIron Man tests for drugs. They even test Age Groupers if they do well enough. And, if you think that PED's are not currently being used by a fair number of both Age Groupers and Pros, you're incredibly naive. Pro Triathletes have been busted as well. Maybe the doping rules are bad - but come up with better ones. Don't pick on this guy if he's followed the rules. Pick on the rules. |
| 2013-09-09 12:06 AM in reply to: tcj103 |
| Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by tcj103 If the rule is two year suspension, and he's following it, then who are we/USAT/WTC to decide what rules to follow? Sounds like the two year rule should be looked at if it isn't discouraging doping. Don't the pros do some bio-passport thing now, where they keep taking samples, comparing them so there aren't any suspicious jumps in blood chemistry? I thought that was cleaning this up. Maybe anyone who's suspended needs to go in that program for life. Pretty sure they don't do this for age groupers though. Remember that the athlete in question was a FORMER pro cyclist and is now competing as an amateur in triathlon. Any suspension you receive as a pro does carry down to all forms of racing associated with one of the doping governing bodies (pro or amateur), but the testing requirements...to my knowledge, does not. It would be a great to keep a bio passport of age groupers, but I don't think it's feasible. It's hard enough to give them an in competition test as it is. |
| 2013-09-09 12:10 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 15655   | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL |
| 2013-09-09 1:31 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 2380  Beijing | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Left Brain I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL
I've read several articles over the past year about AG/Amateurs who have confessed to doping. Here's a few: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/sports/cycling/doping-in-cycling-reaches-into-amateur-ranks.html?_r=0
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324103504578374681699511190.html
definitely cycling-specific... but I would imagine it translates pretty well to triathlon as well. |
| 2013-09-09 1:31 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Left Brain I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL Why do people cheat in anything? Some people just enjoy winning at any cost. |
| 2013-09-09 8:59 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by Leegoocraphe payed his time. Test him again... if he passes, nothing to do but congratulate him.Just goes to show the difference between even mediocre pro cyclists and the uber-biker triathletes.* more importantly, does anyone know anything about Bryan(CD)? . Chris, I know that your answer is the 'correct' one, but at another level it stinks. A former PRO cyclist and CONVICTED DOPER comes in and takes the AMATEUR 70.3 AG championship title. I know that this is the way it is so to speak, but it doesn't sit well with me at all. Sorry it doesn't. I didn't think about the "pro" status..... I was locked in on the now served doping suspension. I think I agree.....his former pro status as a cyclist should make him ineligible as an AG'er.......but right now it doesn't, at least according to the rules. i agree if he is a current pro he shouldn't be racing AG, but he is a former pro. i think there are already guidelines in place for triathletes who are pro to go down to AG racing if they want so i don't see what the issue is. i would expect a dedicated cyclist to have a great bike split compared to triathletes. no surprises here. i usually finish at the top of the bike splits in triathlons but am MOP fodder when compared the top cyclist in my area. |
| 2013-09-09 9:07 AM in reply to: kmac1346 |
| Minneapolis, MN | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by kmac1346 I do have to say that I like the response though. The only hope that we have of cutting down/eliminating doping is for more of the collective to publicly say that its not acceptable, that if you do it, you are not welcome. If that makes even a few think twice, then that is a good thing. Call me a cynic, but i dont think more of the collective public expressing negative opinions, will cut down on cheating. there always have been and always will be people that will take, and rationalize, anything they can do to get better in everything. testing helps but even then the risk/reward/penalty is always in play. So few people get caught and the penalty certainly does not outweigh the reward. |
| 2013-09-09 9:13 AM in reply to: peteweb55403 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by peteweb55403 Call me a cynic, but i dont think more of the collective public expressing negative opinions, will cut down on cheating. there always have been and always will be people that will take, and rationalize, anything they can do to get better in everything. Maybe, maybe not. However, I think it is a strange culture when people can ask their fellow athletes if it's ok to knowingly break the rules and, depending on the rule, get responses that range from "sure" to "it depends on if you're in contention for the podium." |
| 2013-09-09 10:44 PM in reply to: peteweb55403 |
| 81 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by peteweb55403 Originally posted by kmac1346 I do have to say that I like the response though. The only hope that we have of cutting down/eliminating doping is for more of the collective to publicly say that its not acceptable, that if you do it, you are not welcome. If that makes even a few think twice, then that is a good thing. Call me a cynic, but i dont think more of the collective public expressing negative opinions, will cut down on cheating. there always have been and always will be people that will take, and rationalize, anything they can do to get better in everything. testing helps but even then the risk/reward/penalty is always in play. So few people get caught and the penalty certainly does not outweigh the reward. Think about the psychology that goes into competition. A really competitive person functions in only two scenarios regarding PED's. a.) He/she is almost sure none of his/her competitors are taking drugs. It becomes very, very tempting due to the fact that they will have an invisible edge. It's like being able to add nitro to your drag racer and stay in the same class without anyone knowing. It's cheating, it costs money, it's PROBABLY not worth it unless there's prizes on the line for MOST people. Two key words - PROBABLY and MOST. Lots of leeway there. b.) He/She is almost sure SOME of his/her competitors are taking drugs but has no way of knowing which ones or if he/she is being beat by a cheater. Now, it goes from very tempting to take drugs to almost impossible to resist. IF a competitor is winning BECAUSE of cheating, the ONLY way this person is going to win is if they ALSO take drugs. That's a big IF but it becomes incredibly hard to ignore. Most triathletes are aware that no PED regimen on the planet is going to make them a Pro (at least I'm aware of that and I hope most others are) which means it's not really worth it. But, if you've got a chance and you think the reason the chance isn't happening because other people are cheating, then think how hard it becomes to just grind away inches from glory. |
| 2013-09-09 11:00 PM in reply to: adelsud |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by adelsud Originally posted by peteweb55403 Think about the psychology that goes into competition. A really competitive person functions in only two scenarios regarding PED's. a.) He/she is almost sure none of his/her competitors are taking drugs. It becomes very, very tempting due to the fact that they will have an invisible edge. It's like being able to add nitro to your drag racer and stay in the same class without anyone knowing. It's cheating, it costs money, it's PROBABLY not worth it unless there's prizes on the line for MOST people. Two key words - PROBABLY and MOST. Lots of leeway there. b.) He/She is almost sure SOME of his/her competitors are taking drugs but has no way of knowing which ones or if he/she is being beat by a cheater. Now, it goes from very tempting to take drugs to almost impossible to resist. IF a competitor is winning BECAUSE of cheating, the ONLY way this person is going to win is if they ALSO take drugs. That's a big IF but it becomes incredibly hard to ignore. Most triathletes are aware that no PED regimen on the planet is going to make them a Pro (at least I'm aware of that and I hope most others are) which means it's not really worth it. But, if you've got a chance and you think the reason the chance isn't happening because other people are cheating, then think how hard it becomes to just grind away inches from glory. Originally posted by kmac1346 I do have to say that I like the response though. The only hope that we have of cutting down/eliminating doping is for more of the collective to publicly say that its not acceptable, that if you do it, you are not welcome. If that makes even a few think twice, then that is a good thing. Call me a cynic, but i dont think more of the collective public expressing negative opinions, will cut down on cheating. there always have been and always will be people that will take, and rationalize, anything they can do to get better in everything. testing helps but even then the risk/reward/penalty is always in play. So few people get caught and the penalty certainly does not outweigh the reward. No, that's not true. In fact it's bullchit. There are plenty of people who rise to the top of their sport and never take PED's. To say that the only way to compete is to also take drugs is just wrong. First, every sport is different. Second, every person is different. I've been around a lot of pro ballplayers over the years......some have and some haven't. The ones who haven't didn't need to in order to compete...so your theory is crap. The same goes for track athletes. I've been around a lot of them....some who have and some who haven't....your theory is junk. Plenty of people win clean. Plenty!!!
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| 2013-09-09 11:09 PM in reply to: C_Hassard |
Veteran 294 Mission Viejo, | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Heck, I can't beat the guys in my AG, who I am sure are not doping. So he comes in and blows my doors off, who gives a crap. I hope he feels really good about beating the guys in his AG. Step up, go race with the big boys former pro! Then get immediately tested post race, you need to prove it considering past performance. And then get tested for the next 10 races, then we give you a clean bill of health and test and random! |
| 2013-09-09 11:14 PM in reply to: Coach Gil |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Coach Gil Heck, I can't beat the guys in my AG, who I am sure are not doping. So he comes in and blows my doors off, who gives a crap. I hope he feels really good about beating the guys in his AG. Step up, go race with the big boys former pro! Then get immediately tested post race, you need to prove it considering past performance. And then get tested for the next 10 races, then we give you a clean bill of health and test and random! Uh.............................word!!!! |
| 2013-09-09 11:58 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 81 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by adelsud Originally posted by peteweb55403 Think about the psychology that goes into competition. A really competitive person functions in only two scenarios regarding PED's. a.) He/she is almost sure none of his/her competitors are taking drugs. It becomes very, very tempting due to the fact that they will have an invisible edge. It's like being able to add nitro to your drag racer and stay in the same class without anyone knowing. It's cheating, it costs money, it's PROBABLY not worth it unless there's prizes on the line for MOST people. Two key words - PROBABLY and MOST. Lots of leeway there. b.) He/She is almost sure SOME of his/her competitors are taking drugs but has no way of knowing which ones or if he/she is being beat by a cheater. Now, it goes from very tempting to take drugs to almost impossible to resist. IF a competitor is winning BECAUSE of cheating, the ONLY way this person is going to win is if they ALSO take drugs. That's a big IF but it becomes incredibly hard to ignore. Most triathletes are aware that no PED regimen on the planet is going to make them a Pro (at least I'm aware of that and I hope most others are) which means it's not really worth it. But, if you've got a chance and you think the reason the chance isn't happening because other people are cheating, then think how hard it becomes to just grind away inches from glory. Originally posted by kmac1346 I do have to say that I like the response though. The only hope that we have of cutting down/eliminating doping is for more of the collective to publicly say that its not acceptable, that if you do it, you are not welcome. If that makes even a few think twice, then that is a good thing. Call me a cynic, but i dont think more of the collective public expressing negative opinions, will cut down on cheating. there always have been and always will be people that will take, and rationalize, anything they can do to get better in everything. testing helps but even then the risk/reward/penalty is always in play. So few people get caught and the penalty certainly does not outweigh the reward. No, that's not true. In fact it's bullchit. There are plenty of people who rise to the top of their sport and never take PED's. To say that the only way to compete is to also take drugs is just wrong. First, every sport is different. Second, every person is different. I've been around a lot of pro ballplayers over the years......some have and some haven't. The ones who haven't didn't need to in order to compete...so your theory is crap. The same goes for track athletes. I've been around a lot of them....some who have and some who haven't....your theory is junk. Plenty of people win clean. Plenty!!!
Read the whole quote: There's a LOT of If's in there. IF a person believes the only reason they aren't winning is because someone else is cheating, it becomes very hard not to cheat. If someone's winning without PED's there's no reason for them to cheat. I never ONCE said all Pros take PED's. I laid out the reasons it's almost certain SOME of them will probably feel compelled to. |
| 2013-09-10 8:06 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Member 354 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Left Brain I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL I agree. Could it possibly (and I'm reaching here) be a case of some AG'er wanting to bag a few podiums for "cred" so he/she can get clients (i.e., he/she was a budding coach) or maybe get some local sponsors. ...don't know if having a LBS giving you free gear makes you a pro or you can still stay an amateur, but these two scenarios come to mind. Pretty far-fetched and a pretty dumb thing to do to your body for a little gain. |
| 2013-09-10 8:08 AM in reply to: adelsud |
Member 228 Lenexa, KS | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling I don't understand the whole he was a FORMER pro cyclist and now racing Amateur so I'm going to get all bent out of shape for him winning argument. I raced against at least one FORMER pro triathlete this season at the St. Louis 5150 who was in the elite amateur wave and he beat me by a pretty large margin (I won the 20-24 grouping for reference). Should I be bent out of shape because he used to be registered as a pro? No. All you do with that sentiment is condemn former professional athletes from coming back down post-career to compete at the amateur level which is wrong in my opinion. So former pro shouldn't be the issue here. Now, should someone who has been banned for doping in the past be tested on a more regular basis? I'd think so. But that would probably call for a change in regulations by the WADA where there would be a period post-ban that requires extra testing cycles before and after you begin competing again at any level for overall awards. Eventually however the extra testing I would think would be leveled off to a "normal" level of testing imposed on everyone else. As for the argument that he should be forcibly bumped to pro status. What? If you want to make a rule about that you're going to bump a lot of people into professional ranks that don't want to be there. Since he's a former pro cyclist I'm sure he's considered the possibility of going pro in triathlon. Last I checked (which wasn't in the last year) you only needed a few hundred dollars and to fill out a form to register professionally for Ironman racing so no qualification required (not that he'd have a problem qualifying for ITU). I'm definitely against doping in sports, but I'm equally against social pressure to try and essentially condemn a guy from ever competing again when he served the time required of him. With that argument we might as well keep thieves on 24 hour surveillance once they're out of jail to make sure they don't steal anything since we can never trust them again, ad nauseum for other criminals. End Rant. |
| 2013-09-10 8:21 AM in reply to: danimal123 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by danimal123 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL I agree. Could it possibly (and I'm reaching here) be a case of some AG'er wanting to bag a few podiums for "cred" so he/she can get clients (i.e., he/she was a budding coach) or maybe get some local sponsors. I don't think an ex Astana rider needs to bag many podiums in triathlon for cred if it were for coaching. I also don't think he's worried about "local" sponsors if he's crushing IMWC70.3 I assume everyone is looking too far into it. He's a former PRO cyclist with multiple Grand Tours under his belt... he is obviously going to crush the bike against even the best triathletes so long as he was an "ok" time trialist. He had a mediocre swim (comparatively) and a good (but not nearly pro level) run. Not to speak for him, but he's a former professional cyclist who is now retired (and in the 35-39AG) and has a red strike in doping. He is probably racing AG because he has no plans to pursue triathlon at a pro level. |
 2013-09-10 9:16 AM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-09-10 11:06 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2013-09-10 11:10 AM |
| 2013-09-10 11:15 AM in reply to: jblamb1401 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-09-10 12:22 PM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
| Member 354 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by Leegoocrap Originally posted by danimal123 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm trying to figure out why an AG'er would dope. That seems like one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Hell, the better you get as an AG'er the more it costs you. LOL I agree. Could it possibly (and I'm reaching here) be a case of some AG'er wanting to bag a few podiums for "cred" so he/she can get clients (i.e., he/she was a budding coach) or maybe get some local sponsors. I don't think an ex Astana rider needs to bag many podiums in triathlon for cred if it were for coaching. I also don't think he's worried about "local" sponsors if he's crushing IMWC70.3 I assume everyone is looking too far into it. He's a former PRO cyclist with multiple Grand Tours under his belt... he is obviously going to crush the bike against even the best triathletes so long as he was an "ok" time trialist. He had a mediocre swim (comparatively) and a good (but not nearly pro level) run. Not to speak for him, but he's a former professional cyclist who is now retired (and in the 35-39AG) and has a red strike in doping. He is probably racing AG because he has no plans to pursue triathlon at a pro level. Correct. I wasn't speaking about this guy in particular (the ex-Astana rider), but more of a hypothetical where some local guy who wanted to make a name for himself used PEDs to get a few podiums so he could tout the "accomplishments" on his tri-coaching website. |
| 2013-09-10 1:11 PM in reply to: jblamb1401 |
| 81 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by jblamb1401 Someone made the comment that WTC tests both pro and AG. Can anyone verify this? There's little actual anti-doping info on Ironman.com other than basically "don't do it." Their 2012 stats say that only 235 in-competition tests were conducted in the year. There were an additional 200+ out of competition tests done but these were all in WADA's Bio Passport program which is only for pros. So 235 tests at 100 events worldwide. At a minimum I think it would be pretty safe to theorize that WTC isn't very serious about doping, AG or pro. Here's the story on the AGer getting tested. http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Kevin_Moats_Banned_for_Doping_3172.h... And 235 tests at events only may weed out some particularly stupid people but that's about it. |
| 2013-09-10 2:06 PM in reply to: adelsud |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-09-10 2:10 PM in reply to: jblamb1401 |
| Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by jblamb1401 My point is simply that WTC is not serious about catching drug cheats if it is only administering 235 tests among all of its events in a year. They could very well be true, but they aren't having any trouble selling out races. I think the vast majority of AG racers just don't care about drug testing or people disregarding those rules. Just amongst the racers aware of the anti-doping policy, I bet the vast majority think they're covered if they have a prescription from their doctor. |
| 2013-09-18 9:04 PM in reply to: jobaxas |
Expert 1091 | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling Originally posted by jobaxas Originally posted by Fred D Maybe it's the rules that are wrong.? . Maybe. I don't lose sleep over this stuff as there is enough doping in the regular AG athletes that singling this guy out and no one else seems silly. It's the Internet so some people may misinterpret my post.... The guy 'won', but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Both the former PRO cycling angle and the DOPING angle. Reminds me of the 'TUCK RULE' which let the pats beat the raiders years ago. It was the 'rule' and the 'right call' but most people (non New England fans lol) felt it didn't sit right. Eventually they changed the tuck rule after more than 10 years. What rule would I make? Well last time I checked I don't own WTC so it doesn't really matter, but I would favor something along the lines of what they did for Moats.... Where allegedly he is allowed to race but isn't eligible for Kona or awards. That might not be the exact way it is for moats but that would allow the guy we are talking about in our thread to race, but not the 'age group win' at a championship race. Just my useless opinions. I'm BOP this is never going to impact me personally - but if i'd come second in that age group in Vegas i'd feel very differentli I suspect. I'll never know My friend and the defending AG champion from last year DID come in second, and he feels very different! They swam and ran almost the same, but the bike split was a big delta. And this dude is FAST. After he races Kona, will most likely go pro. The MI table screamed our heads off when he got his 2nd place ag award...it was pretty quite for the spainard. |
| 2013-09-19 9:45 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: IM 70.3 WC Age Group Winner Suspended Previously From Cycling I don't know the WC rules (not on my radar), but in the USAT local races the Elites aren't eligible for AG awards. At some level, it seems that a former PRO at any of the 3 disciplines ought to be at least in the Elite category. Not currently a rule, but it sure feels right (iow, agree with the mandatory upgrade comment above, and this is ONE way to do something like that). Not sure that I'd make an AGer upgrade for winning - that's the whole point of AG competition for many of the FOP types, but a former PRO? Yeah, seems reasonable to pull them into their own category... Probably not fair on some level, but rules always make some things unfair. Especially if they're broken (#pacelinesgofaster). The whole AG doping, drafting in non-drafting races, etc. thing (aka cheating) does take some of the "luster" out of the sport for me. I enjoy MY races just as much, even if some jackazz is cheating, but don't like spending energy talking about cheaters (either here - which I'm doing RIGHT NOW - or with non-tri friends, etc.) and I hate seeing it on course. All I can do is race clean (as in, by the rules - no doping, no drafting, no question for me). So, in summary - meh. People can really $uck, but thankfully only some people. Matt ETA: I should rather have said that rules make things unfair when they're unenforced or unenforceable... Edited by mcmanusclan5 2013-09-19 9:52 AM |
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