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2013-09-12 1:00 PM

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Subject: Endurance Nation

For those of you who have used Endurance Nation for IM training, what were your thoughts, experiences, and results?  I like a lot of their philosophies and am looking for a new plan for 2014 IM Boulder.  By comparison, I used IronFit Intermediate in 2012.

 

Also, did you simply purchase a plan or did you join their team?  Any extra benefit to joining the team?



2013-09-12 2:02 PM
in reply to: FF Stock

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
If you want to hear them a little with philosophy and coaching style, they have a podcast with many episodes available on itunes.

I don't know anything about their specific training plans (like bike 40 min on tuesday) or how well they work, but I have listened to number of podcasts and have used a few tips I picked up along the way.
2013-09-12 2:52 PM
in reply to: kskonkol

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation

I went to a "4 Keys..." seminar they presented on a Fri. two days before IM WI (I did it this past Sun.), and received their CD for attending.

They are quite personable, have the experience, and have quite a following.

If I had the funds, I would consider them.  Just my opinion.

2013-09-12 4:40 PM
in reply to: FF Stock

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by FF Stock

For those of you who have used Endurance Nation for IM training, what were your thoughts, experiences, and results?  I like a lot of their philosophies and am looking for a new plan for 2014 IM Boulder.  By comparison, I used IronFit Intermediate in 2012.

 

Also, did you simply purchase a plan or did you join their team?  Any extra benefit to joining the team?

I've been on EN's team for four years.

Ask me whatever you'd like.

2013-09-12 5:43 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Their 4 Keys is money!

Other than that, I'm not sure, but they have a great philosophy for racing!
2013-09-12 7:45 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030


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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by FF Stock

For those of you who have used Endurance Nation for IM training, what were your thoughts, experiences, and results?  I like a lot of their philosophies and am looking for a new plan for 2014 IM Boulder.  By comparison, I used IronFit Intermediate in 2012.

 

Also, did you simply purchase a plan or did you join their team?  Any extra benefit to joining the team?

I've been on EN's team for four years.

Ask me whatever you'd like.




How personalized are their plans? Is it a generic plan?

What do you feel is the most valuable versus utilizing your own plan/Fink/Etc

Do you utilize a lot of their online networking, forums?


2013-09-13 7:31 AM
in reply to: mrbeachbum2

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation

Originally posted by mrbeachbum2
How personalized are their plans? Is it a generic plan? What do you feel is the most valuable versus utilizing your own plan/Fink/Etc Do you utilize a lot of their online networking, forums?

The plans are personalized and generic all at the same time.  Let's say you want to train for an IM.  You can choose between a Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced plan.  Adv>Int>Beg when it comes to both intensity and volume.

Team athletes input their FTP # (if using power) or LTHR # (if using HR) for the bike and vDot and/or HR data for the run.  The plan will then tell you exactly what to do on any given day.  Generically (plan athletes only) it might say something like 180 minute ride: 20-30' w/u @ 60-65%, 3x30' @ 80-85% (5' easy in between), remainder of ride at 70-75%.  You plug in your won numbers.  Team athletes would see the same thing but instead of the % it would tell you the FTP range to ride.  So if your FTP was 300 watts it would say: 20-30' w/u @ 180-195W, 3x30' @ 240-255W (5' easy), remainder of ride at 210-225W.

I made up that workout for example purposes.  Run and swim workouts are similarly worded and designed.

The great value for me was having an organized plan that didn't require a zillion hours a week.  I had searched for something like that and couldn't quite figure out how to schedule a plan on my own that made sense when it came to time efficiency and getting in the necessary work.  The EN plans are generally less time volume than most other plans but they're pretty intense with the theory that to make up for less time means you need some more intensity.  Not saying you won't have 16-18 hour training weeks because you will but you won't have 20+ hour weeks.  In short, their plans put me on the right track.

In full disclosure, I don't follow their plans much anymore.  I figured out what works for me and what doesn't and I bastardized their plans into something that works better for me and my schedule.  The base of it all still lies in EN's philosophy and plan and just tweaked to totally fit me.

That leads to the other part of the equation and why I stay with EN despite not really following their plans any longer...

The online networking with the coaches and the other members.  It really is second to none.  EN's racing protocol and strategy is just spot on.  It's also great to bounce questions, ideas and problems off all the other members because odds are that another EN team member has experienced it.  Rich and Patrick (coaches) are easy to communicate with and are super sharp guys.  They really, really care and take care of their team members.

2013-09-15 11:52 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation

Thanks GMAN that answered a lot of it.

As far as your tweaks to the plans go, were these more time/scheduling issues or were they components of the plans you didn't like/agree with? 

Have you used their Out Season plan at all?  This, in particular, looks intriguing to me as I have never followed a structured off season plan and have a lot to gain here (or, less fitness to lose).

Did you use any other plan for a previous IM to compare with?

And ultimately, do you feel you were adequately prepared and confident in your training on race day?

2013-09-16 8:01 AM
in reply to: FF Stock

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by FF Stock

Thanks GMAN that answered a lot of it.

1) As far as your tweaks to the plans go, were these more time/scheduling issues or were they components of the plans you didn't like/agree with? 

2) Have you used their Out Season plan at all?  This, in particular, looks intriguing to me as I have never followed a structured off season plan and have a lot to gain here (or, less fitness to lose).

3) Did you use any other plan for a previous IM to compare with?

4) And ultimately, do you feel you were adequately prepared and confident in your training on race day?

I added numbers to your questions to easily address them.

1) My tweaks were mainly for scheduling issues.  EN plan might state do X on Y day and I'd prefer to do A on B day.  I also changed up some of the structure of the workouts as well to better suit me.  There is not anything in their plans that I disagree with.  Just some things work better for me than other things.  Ultimately, you're still more or less self-coached so you gotta do what works best for you.

2) Yes, I have used their Out Season plans.  The OS plans really worked well for me and I gained a lot of bike power and fitness the first year I used the OS.  I started with EN in Sept 2010.  I did IMFL bike in Nov 2010 in 5:42 and did IMTX bike in 2011 in 5:15 and IMTX is a more challenging course and conditions.  FTP went from 240 to 290 in that time.

3) I used IronGuides prior to EN.

4) Absolutely adequately prepared and confident!  Followed the plans and race guidance and all was well.

2013-09-19 12:17 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
I'm reading their Triathlon 2.0 pdf. They say that training runs should not exceed 2.5 hours and give examples of 2 runners at different paces and the training stress effect. I'm the slower runner. So although it says to pick up the pace and keep it to 2.5 hours, I'm confused as to how running faster for 2.5 hours vs running a solid training pace for say 3.5 would be better prep for an IM run? I mean, in 2.5 hours I'm not going to get very far despite pushing the pace. 15 miles more or less and that would be at an HM race pace. So I'm not sure if this is the plan I should go with because I feel like I would be short on run miles. This will be my first IM. I like their philosophy, but my concern is that their "fast then far" exceeds my "fast". Any suggestions on that?
2013-09-19 1:09 PM
in reply to: runswithcrazydog

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation

Originally posted by runswithcrazydog I'm reading their Triathlon 2.0 pdf. They say that training runs should not exceed 2.5 hours and give examples of 2 runners at different paces and the training stress effect. I'm the slower runner. So although it says to pick up the pace and keep it to 2.5 hours, I'm confused as to how running faster for 2.5 hours vs running a solid training pace for say 3.5 would be better prep for an IM run? I mean, in 2.5 hours I'm not going to get very far despite pushing the pace. 15 miles more or less and that would be at an HM race pace. So I'm not sure if this is the plan I should go with because I feel like I would be short on run miles. This will be my first IM. I like their philosophy, but my concern is that their "fast then far" exceeds my "fast". Any suggestions on that?

Unless you already do a lot of running (say ~7.5hrs per week), then you will probably be better off sticking to no more than 2.5hrs.  (Ideally, to support a 3.5hr weekly run, you'd want to be doing a copuple runs of about 2hr and a few more of about 1hr--10+ hrs/wk of just running!)  Better to build volume (and, importantly, durability) by running more often than to worry about getting much longer/farther.  This will also allow you to focus more on your biking, which is likely to be a much bigger governor on your ability to run the IM marathon then your running ability.  And can give you good cardio work without the injury/recovery risks.



2013-09-19 1:35 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by runswithcrazydog I'm reading their Triathlon 2.0 pdf. They say that training runs should not exceed 2.5 hours and give examples of 2 runners at different paces and the training stress effect. I'm the slower runner. So although it says to pick up the pace and keep it to 2.5 hours, I'm confused as to how running faster for 2.5 hours vs running a solid training pace for say 3.5 would be better prep for an IM run? I mean, in 2.5 hours I'm not going to get very far despite pushing the pace. 15 miles more or less and that would be at an HM race pace. So I'm not sure if this is the plan I should go with because I feel like I would be short on run miles. This will be my first IM. I like their philosophy, but my concern is that their "fast then far" exceeds my "fast". Any suggestions on that?

Unless you already do a lot of running (say ~7.5hrs per week), then you will probably be better off sticking to no more than 2.5hrs.  (Ideally, to support a 3.5hr weekly run, you'd want to be doing a copuple runs of about 2hr and a few more of about 1hr--10+ hrs/wk of just running!)  Better to build volume (and, importantly, durability) by running more often than to worry about getting much longer/farther.  This will also allow you to focus more on your biking, which is likely to be a much bigger governor on your ability to run the IM marathon then your running ability.  And can give you good cardio work without the injury/recovery risks.

 

x2 on what Johnny stated.  Personally, I have even moved away from long runs in general and have been operating on the theory that volume via frequency trumps running long.  My "long run" days are split into a AM and PM component, like 6 miles in the AM and 10 miles in the PM.  Way better on my body and the results were very positive for me.  I PR'd my IM marathon at IMC-Whistler this year by 15 minutes and that was after the real tough Whistler bike ride in addition to a tough run course.  I also had a complete nutritional bonk around mile 18 that caused me to stop/walk for 10 minutes.  My longest run was 11 miles (90 minutes) and all runs were more or less done at a comfortable pace.

2013-09-19 2:39 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Well, from a laundry perspective, I'm not excited about adding a second run to my day.
I understand what you are both saying regarding splitting long runs. I have read that somewhere. And I know I need to add more run days into my schedule to increase my weekly volume. I've been a 3-4 day a week runner (18-25 miles) for 2+ years although I have only run HMs. Bumping up to 26.2 is new for me and I know I need to become a solid 4 days a week runner. But I don't understand how doing so would allow me to focus more on biking. Maybe I didn't understand that part? In my mind, if I split long runs to where I am getting in 5 runs a week to accommodate the mileage volume I need, how does that allow me to focus more on biking? I'm not disagreeing with improving the bike improves the run. I did have a significant improvement this year in running off the bike after putting a lot of focus on biking last winter. I was planning to switch that to maintain bike with more emphasis on the run for this winter. I'm registered for IM Chatt 9/28/14. My season just ended, I took 2 weeks off and I'm good to go with off-season work now. What do you suggest that my run schedule should be?
2013-09-19 4:19 PM
in reply to: runswithcrazydog

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Run long, split runs, both have their merits but what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

Research seems to suggest that up to 2.5 hours/17 miles is good enough for long runs for IM,HIM, and marathons, and when constrained go with time not distance. Beyond 2.5 hours no physical benefit is detected. At least that's what I concluded after researching "benefits of the long run". Incidentally, one of the effects of the long run is to exponentially increase capillaries over a 10 week period, so if one wants to minimize their long runs, the best time to do them would seem to be in the 10 weeks prior to taper.
2013-09-20 8:25 AM
in reply to: runswithcrazydog

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation

Originally posted by runswithcrazydog Well, from a laundry perspective, I'm not excited about adding a second run to my day. I understand what you are both saying regarding splitting long runs. I have read that somewhere. And I know I need to add more run days into my schedule to increase my weekly volume. I've been a 3-4 day a week runner (18-25 miles) for 2+ years although I have only run HMs. Bumping up to 26.2 is new for me and I know I need to become a solid 4 days a week runner. But I don't understand how doing so would allow me to focus more on biking. Maybe I didn't understand that part? In my mind, if I split long runs to where I am getting in 5 runs a week to accommodate the mileage volume I need, how does that allow me to focus more on biking? I'm not disagreeing with improving the bike improves the run. I did have a significant improvement this year in running off the bike after putting a lot of focus on biking last winter. I was planning to switch that to maintain bike with more emphasis on the run for this winter. I'm registered for IM Chatt 9/28/14. My season just ended, I took 2 weeks off and I'm good to go with off-season work now. What do you suggest that my run schedule should be?

I think splitting some long runs can be a good idea, but you'll want to do some long, continuous runs too.  If it works for you, maybe alternate weeks.  The "focus more on biking" was relative to doing 3+hr runs.  The recovery time from those is greater and will impact the work you can do on your other days.  Limiting your long run a bit will reduce injury risk and lessen recovery time.  And will have only a modest impact on your IM marathon.  Add some short runs off the bike if you want to help your laundry efficiency and get some more weekly volume.

I'd encourage you to consider trying to drive more bike improvement this winter.  For most competitive IM racers, it does tend to move towards "it's all about the run".  But for the majority of those doing an IM, "it's all about the bike".  (Note, those are both exaggerations as it is always about all 3.)  The slower a runner you are, the more important it is to get to T2 in as solid a position as possible because you still have a long day ahead of you from there.  Of course, you have to balance everything you have to do in your life along with training, and what may be 'ideal' may not be practical for you.  Some people do 3+hr long runs and have perfectly fine IM experiences.  So these are really just some things for you to consider.

 

2013-09-20 10:00 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

 For most competitive IM racers, it does tend to move towards "it's all about the run".  But for the majority of those doing an IM, "it's all about the bike".  (Note, those are both exaggerations as it is always about all 3.)  

Quit stealing my lines!

I will 100% agree that training for the IM run is different for elite AG'ers than for average to less than average AG'ers.  I'm going to coach my brother and sister through their first IM's next year.  Neither one of them is going to set the world on fire.  They will have average times (at best) for their respective AG's.  It will be centered around the "it's all about the bike" training.  Yes, I want them running 5-6 times per week for 40 miles during peak training weeks but they don't need to suffer running for 20+ miles at a 7:00/mile pace.  It's just not in anyway applicable to them.  My goal is to get them to T2 without having destroyed themselves.  I know they're not going to be running the entire marathon.  I just don't want them walking the entire marathon.  I think that's been part of the disconnect with your average everyday AG'er.  They fixate on the 26.2 mile run when they should fixate on the 112 mile bike ride.  I'm not an elite level triathlete.  I'm top-10% at local races and top-15-20% at IM level races.  I have FOMOP (front of middle of the pack) swim ability, BOFOP (back of front of the pack) bike ability and MOP run ability.  Running just hasn't come as naturally to me as the other two.  I say this to illustrate a point.  I was injured going into IMAZ last year.  I basically couldn't run for four months leading up to the race.  I just made sure I was in really good swim and cycling shape ("All about the bike") and had no idea what that 26.2 miles was going to look like.  I ended up "running" a 4:40 based on base endurance and smart bike training and execution.  Yes, that was about 40 minutes slower than what I wanted to do had I been healthy but it shows how important bike fitness and execution is.  I at least jogged 98% of the marathon and only walked for a few minutes.  Had I not put in the effort on the bike I would've probably done mostly walking.

My advice would be very different if my brother wanted to qualify for Kona.  Well, my advice in that regard would be to find a coach who knows how to coach elite athletes.  That's out of my wheelhouse. Cool



2013-10-10 2:04 PM
in reply to: FranzZemen


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Subject: RE: Endurance Nation
Originally posted by FranzZemen

Run long, split runs, both have their merits but what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

Research seems to suggest that up to 2.5 hours/17 miles is good enough for long runs for IM,HIM, and marathons, and when constrained go with time not distance. Beyond 2.5 hours no physical benefit is detected. At least that's what I concluded after researching "benefits of the long run". Incidentally, one of the effects of the long run is to exponentially increase capillaries over a 10 week period, so if one wants to minimize their long runs, the best time to do them would seem to be in the 10 weeks prior to taper.



One thing that hasn't been brought up, or not said explicitly, is that runs over 2.5 or 3 hours take a day or two to recover from, which makes running and biking a day or two after ineffective or worse. Shorter runs (2-2.5 hours) still give the same benefits of 3+, but are much less taxing. The one caveat I would say is that a 3-4 hour run can be beneficial if used for nutrition and hydration research/testing. Other than that, I think they do more harm than good. Running 2.5 hours in training versus 5 hours in an Ironman is just mental. If you can fight through tough training sessions and conditions, you'll be fine.

As far as Endurance Nation (the original question), I can't speak to their training plans or any training plans since I train on my own, but their race execution is spot on. I used their 4 Keys before I even knew what they were. I think most people and training plans have too much volume, and subsequently, many people who train for an Ironman get injured or have some type of injury during the year. I've always started training 12-16 months before Ironman, ramped up slowly, and stayed injury free during the year and fast on race day.

I can't really speak to which is more important, riding or running. Cycling is my specialty, so I've always been more concerned being efficient on the bike to set up a good run since being faster on the bike would take quite a bit more effort during the race than a faster run.
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