When to secure a coach?

2013-09-19 1:00 PM

Expert

3145

Scottsdale, AZ

Subject: When to secure a coach?

Well I've decided that I'm going the coached route next year but am at a bit of a loss when it comes to when the best time to secure a coach would be? A race next year will be IMAZ and it will be my first venture into a full IM, as such everything I do from this point forward is going to be geared towards that race. IF I make it into Boston I'll have a short mary build at the top of the year but that's it until summer. Fall/winter will be all bike focus as that's where I really would like to make some big gains during this "off season". Should I look into a coach during this off season or will I get almost as much benefit from just riding a sh& ton and go with the coach next spring? Do coaches offer some sort of in between guidance where I can do a consultation and get some level of planning for off season work but maybe not quite the direct, call me anytime, modify your plan weekly type of coaching one would want while beginning a race plan build?

I know we have a number of coaches on here so hoping they may be able to steer me to the best option. There will be a 70.3 or two next year as well and I'm more of the competitive than completer type so looking to ring every last bit of performance possible.

audiojan

2013-09-19 1:25 PM

in reply to: #4859393

Pro

5892

, New Hampshire

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

In my experience from working with different coaches, it takes about 3-4 weeks for the two of you to really get to know each other. Then you'll need 3-12 months to build for the IM (depending on where you start from and your goal) so count backwards from your first race of the season and you'll get an idea of the latest you should start

jheathjr

2013-09-19 2:05 PM

in reply to: thebigb

Member

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

If this is your first time working with a coach, be aware that you will most likely get slower before you get faster. The coach will have you do some base building before you start doing real hard sessions. It will take some time for the coach to get familiar with you and how you handle stress. I would suggest to start with the coach now to get the most benefit.

2013-09-19 2:15 PM

in reply to: thebigb

111

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

The first question you need to answer is why do you think you need a coach? From your post, it doesn't really look like you have answered that question. Are you looking to improve one aspect of your race? Do you need help with nutrition? Do you feel the training you've done by yourself has been missing something? Do you want to train better for the mental aspect of workouts and races? Do you want to qualify for Kona? What is your goal? When you answer those questions, especially the last one, it will help you figure out if or when you need to hire a coach and what to look for.

The second question is does coaching that involves never seeing the athlete qualify as coaching? I post all of the workouts for the team that I coach online. The reason I do it is that the workouts that I write are not where the value is in the service I provide. The value is in me standing on the deck of the pool 5 days a week and seeing the athletes in the water and how they respond to different stress loads, how they move in the water, their mental engagement in the practice, etc and my responses to their responses.

Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

qrkid

2013-09-19 2:21 PM

in reply to: jheathjr

Expert

1394

Wilmington, NC

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by jheathjr

If this is your first time working with a coach, be aware that you will most likely get slower before you get faster. The coach will have you do some base building before you start doing real hard sessions. It will take some time for the coach to get familiar with you and how you handle stress. I would suggest to start with the coach now to get the most benefit.

In reference to the bold part. Why do you say that?

2013-09-19 2:25 PM

in reply to: snappingt

Expert

3145

Scottsdale, AZ

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by snappingt The first question you need to answer is why do you think you need a coach? From your post, it doesn't really look like you have answered that question. Are you looking to improve one aspect of your race? Do you need help with nutrition? Do you feel the training you've done by yourself has been missing something? Do you want to train better for the mental aspect of workouts and races? Do you want to qualify for Kona? What is your goal? When you answer those questions, especially the last one, it will help you figure out if or when you need to hire a coach and what to look for. The second question is does coaching that involves never seeing the athlete qualify as coaching? I post all of the workouts for the team that I coach online. The reason I do it is that the workouts that I write are not where the value is in the service I provide. The value is in me standing on the deck of the pool 5 days a week and seeing the athletes in the water and how they respond to different stress loads, how they move in the water, their mental engagement in the practice, etc and my responses to their responses. Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

The best workout planning as it suits me specifically. 70.3 WCs. Kona.

audiojan

2013-09-19 2:27 PM

in reply to: #4859424

Pro

5892

, New Hampshire

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

That's a correct statement and consistent with how you build a training plan. In the off season and early season, you concentrate on building a solid foundation. Speed works comes later. So yes, you will get slower (or at most very minor positive change) before you get faster.

qrkid

2013-09-19 2:39 PM

in reply to: audiojan

Expert

1394

Wilmington, NC

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by audiojan

That's a correct statement and consistent with how you build a training plan. In the off season and early season, you concentrate on building a solid foundation. Speed works comes later. So yes, you will get slower (or at most very minor positive change) before you get faster.

You get slower in reference to what? Yes you will in general be slower than your A race that you just peaked for. You won't neccesarily be slower than your baseline aerobic training pace from 6 months prior. Good chance you will actually be faster.

Besides, what you are saying would apply to the OP wether he gets a coach or not.

jheathjr said,"if this is your first time working with a coach, be aware that you will most likely get slower before you get faster."

Why would getting a coach make you slower first?

2013-09-19 2:47 PM

in reply to: thebigb

111	Subject: RE: When to secure a coach? With those goals, you will probably need more than one coach.

dmiller5

2013-09-19 3:06 PM

in reply to: snappingt

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by snappingt With those goals, you will probably need more than one coach.

Thats a complete load of crap.

he could do it with no coach.

and one coach giving a good program will be fine.

2013-09-19 5:39 PM

in reply to: dmiller5

111

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Dave,

I appreciate your constructive criticism. From my point of view, after working with 3 athletes that have qualified for Kona this year, I was giving him my advice that would give him the best chances for success in achieving his goals.

I work with some fast age groupers, pros and their coaches and the ability to qualify for Kona gets more competitive each year. Most of the top athletes work with multiple coaches and the baseline talent of those athletes qualifying, both pro and age group, gets higher and higher.

That's my advice based on my experience and what I see as the evolution in the sport.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd

2013-09-19 5:52 PM

in reply to: 0

Expert

3145

Scottsdale, AZ

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

fwiw, I will have a separate swim coach. As for KQ, I do not have any false expectations that that will happen next year but I think I could have an outside shot at 70.3 Worlds if I get my stuff together.

Edited by thebigb 2013-09-19 5:53 PM

pga_mike

2013-09-19 6:04 PM

in reply to: #4859393

Champion

6503

NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

The best reason to get a coach is to take the pressure of planning, monitoring, evaluating and adjusting off you and on someone else. I'm a second guesser by nature, so I paid my coach to review my plans, thoughts and workouts as a second opinion. It was worth it to me.

TriMyBest

2013-09-19 6:12 PM

in reply to: jheathjr

Pro

6011

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by jheathjr If this is your first time working with a coach, be aware that you will most likely get slower before you get faster. The coach will have you do some base building before you start doing real hard sessions. It will take some time for the coach to get familiar with you and how you handle stress. I would suggest to start with the coach now to get the most benefit.

The first bold sentence should rarely happen, and then only if the athlete hasn't kept any training logs, and is unable to provide accurate data regarding their training load over the past few months, or if the coach is clueless.

The second bold sentence is just a silly thing to say, as it assumes every coach, athlete, and situation are identical.

TriMyBest

2013-09-19 6:23 PM

in reply to: snappingt

Pro

6011

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by snappingt The first question you need to answer is why do you think you need a coach? From your post, it doesn't really look like you have answered that question. Are you looking to improve one aspect of your race? Do you need help with nutrition? Do you feel the training you've done by yourself has been missing something? Do you want to train better for the mental aspect of workouts and races? Do you want to qualify for Kona? What is your goal? When you answer those questions, especially the last one, it will help you figure out if or when you need to hire a coach and what to look for. The second question is does coaching that involves never seeing the athlete qualify as coaching? I post all of the workouts for the team that I coach online. The reason I do it is that the workouts that I write are not where the value is in the service I provide. The value is in me standing on the deck of the pool 5 days a week and seeing the athletes in the water and how they respond to different stress loads, how they move in the water, their mental engagement in the practice, etc and my responses to their responses. Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

That's an interesting opinion that thousands of athletes would disagree with.

BUT, FWIW, it's not surprising that would be your perspective considering that you appear to coach swimming exclusively. When it comes to swim coaching, I've also found that I need to work with people in person for the best results, because the process is too slow and inefficient to have them video themselves, email it to me, I provide feedback, they implement the changes, then start the process over again with them videoing themselves again. What takes a few days remotely can happen in a few minutes in person. For running, cycling, and triathletes who have a competitive swimming background, remote coaching can be extremely effective.

In situations where a satellite triathlete needs swimming help, I want them to work with a local swimming coach, with me coordinating their overall program via email, text, phone, and TrainingPeaks.

TriMyBest

2013-09-19 6:42 PM

in reply to: thebigb

Pro

6011

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by thebigb

Brad, I'd suggest you at least consult with a couple coaches now, then decide how to proceed based on the conversations you have with them. Depending on your situation, you may decide based on cost/benefit to start with a coach this fall or wait until early next year. A good coach will work with you to determine your strengths and weaknesses and establish short and longer term goals, then manage your progress toward them. They will work with you in the out season to improve your weaknesses. Some will even help correct muscular imbalances that have the potential to limit your performance and generally prepare you for the more specific training that will happen next year in the months leading up to your most important races.

If there is a reason that you want to wait until next year to start working with a coach, such as money, there are coaches who will provide a lower level of service throughout the out season to work within your budget. For example, I'm in the process right now of getting started with a client who plans to race IMFL 2014. We won't start formal coaching until January, but in the mean time, we are meeting, I'm reviewing her training logs, and giving general advice for her training for the next 3 1/2 months.

2013-09-19 6:56 PM

in reply to: TriMyBest

Expert

3145

Scottsdale, AZ

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Thanks Don, greatly appreciated. I have a few in mind that I have or will be reaching out to to discuss. Some local, some remote.

gsmacleod

2013-09-19 7:56 PM

in reply to: TriMyBest

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Agree with Don; he posted many of the things I would have addressed.

The only thing I would add is that you should make contact very soon as many coaches will be filling up for next season if they are not already. You can always find a coach who is willing to take another athlete but you will not always be able to find a good coach who is still taking on athletes.

Shane

gsmacleod

2013-09-19 8:03 PM

in reply to: snappingt

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by snappingt

Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

Many of the best coaches in the sport operate in this manner when they are coaching athletes remotely (which is pretty much everyone at least for part of the season). That doesn't mean that the week doesn't get adjusted based on how things are progressing but providing a week of training is a very common practice.

Shane

bcagle25

2013-09-19 11:55 PM

in reply to: gsmacleod

Expert

2355

Madison, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by snappingt

Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

I concur with this and know of some coaches that actually will sometimes hold workouts until 24-48 hours before. I think that is more to keep the athletes mind off the upcoming workouts and to focus at the task at hand. Whatever the reason, one has about 5 athletes in Kona in 3 weeks so something is working.

jheathjr

2013-09-20 8:37 AM

in reply to: TriMyBest

Member

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by TriMyBest

The second bold sentence is just a silly thing to say, as it assumes every coach, athlete, and situation are identical.

I was speaking from my own experience, as well as conversations I have had with other athletes. I'm sure it is not the same for everyone. From my experience I switched from just going out and riding hard with no real plan, no consistent logs. The first few months were all easy base building rides, my top end speed tanked. I felt like it was worthless. Then the harder workouts came in, and I started seeing improvements, but it took time. Many of the guys I race with had the same experience. I race handcycles though, and we are following plans similar to bike racing so it may be different than what you guys are following for triathlons.

2013-09-20 9:35 AM

in reply to: TriMyBest

111

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

I'm sure that thousands of the triathletes being coached in the current model would disagree. They don't know any better. The majority of triathlon coaching is done remotely, where the coach rarely sees the athlete in a race or in a practice. They are getting a plan, following the plan, giving the athlete feedback on results of workouts and the coach talks them through nutrition, how to set up transition, race strategy, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that it is no where near the most effective way to get performance out of athletes and that the value proposition of the remote coaching model in triathlon is skewed. If you can find a good local coach that holds regular workouts, you will be far better off.

Definitely from a swim coach perspective, remote coaching is difficult and more demanding than the other two disciplines.

2013-09-20 9:39 AM

in reply to: bcagle25

111

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by snappingt

Also, if you have a coach that sends a weeks worth of practices ahead of time. They aren't coaching you.

I don't do it to keep the athletes minds off the upcoming workouts. If they have that little mental focus, then we have bigger problems. I do it because I want to see the results of the workout they did and how they performed, so I can adjust the next workout based on what they need. If you want to coach effectively, you really can't do it any other way.

gsmacleod

2013-09-20 7:38 PM

in reply to: snappingt

Champion

9407

Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia

Subject: RE: When to secure a coach?

Originally posted by snappingt

I'm sure that thousands of the triathletes being coached in the current model would disagree. They don't know any better.

While it may be true that some "don't know any better," there are many athletes who are coached remotely who have previous experience being coached locally. There are cases where an in person coach may be better and situations where a remote coach would be better; it will depend on the athlete, the coach and the situation. It is not as simple as saying remote coaching = bad, local coaching = good.

The majority of triathlon coaching is done remotely, where the coach rarely sees the athlete in a race or in a practice. They are getting a plan, following the plan, giving the athlete feedback on results of workouts and the coach talks them through nutrition, how to set up transition, race strategy, etc.

While this is certainly true, it is also true of many other endurance sports. Swimming is more the exception to this when it comes to endurance sport for two reasons; one it is incredibly technical and two all training happens in one very small space so it is easy for a coach to conduct a practice for many athlete.

While it is ideal to be able to see the athlete in their key workouts and be able to adjust workouts based on how the athlete is doing in a workout, there are ways a remote coach can help an athlete deal with these situations. Further, as a coach tracks the progress of their athletes, they will learn how the athlete responds to training and should have a good handle on how a given workout will impact the athlete and plan accordingly. This is not to say that the athlete will never hit a workout flat but it should be the exception rather than the rule and the athlete should have an idea of how to proceed if they aren't hitting their numbers or pace.

There are even situations where a remote coach will have greater insight into an athlete than if they were training with them. Technology affords great insight into workouts and a coach should have a much better handle on a remote athlete's progress who trains with power than a local athlete who is only using HR.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is no where near the most effective way to get performance out of athletes and that the value proposition of the remote coaching model in triathlon is skewed.

You claim that it is not the most effective method but what evidence do you have to support this? Intuitively it makes sense but if there is one thing that research into sport has shown on many occasions, it is that what is intuitive is not always best.

If you can find a good local coach that holds regular workouts, you will be far better off.

Even assuming a good local coach is superior to a good remote coach, the issue many athletes would have is finding a good local coach. While there are many triathlon coaches, the number of good coaches is quite a bit smaller and for many, a good local coach isn't going to be an option.

Then, there is the issue of ensuring schedules will work out and in many cases, these workouts end up not being coached training but instead working out with the coach. Then of course there will be the added cost associated with the additional time to be spent training under the direction of the coach on top of the cost of training plan development.

I have been coaching triathletes for several years, both in person and remotely. There are situations where I see local coaching being beneficial and other situations where having a remote coach is going to be a good fit. I have suggested to interested athletes that they may be better off finding someone who is local and I have some local athletes who I rarely see. It really depends on the individual athlete what makes the most sense.

Shane