General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What does it take for a MOP swimmer...... Rss Feed  
Moderators: jmk-brooklyn, Ron Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 2
 
 
2013-09-25 12:48 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

User image

Expert
1283
1000100100252525
Floriduh
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Chris makes a good point. OWS has many variables (wind, current, knuckleheads kicking you in face) and there is no line at the bottom to help you swim straight. So often good times are every bit as much a function of luck as speed.


2013-09-25 1:37 PM
in reply to: VGT

User image

Alabama
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by VGT

Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?




Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.


Certainly you are correct and that the 5 seconds will mean more in an IM but......

2.4 miles @ 1:30 min/100 pace = 61:21
2.4 miles @ 1:25 min/100 pace = 59:50
~5% increase in performance

Saved 1:31

~5% increase on the bike:
112 miles @ 20 mph = 5:36:00
112 miles @ 21 mph = 5:20:00

Saved 16:00


Since OP is already wicked fast IMO, there is just not a lot of gains that can be made in the water.

I heard on a Kona broadcast one time that "....you cannot win Kona in the water but you can lose Kona in the water".
2013-09-25 2:18 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

Master
7269
500020001001002525
Northern IL
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by Rogillio

Certainly you are correct and that the 5 seconds will mean more in an IM but...... 2.4 miles @ 1:30 min/100 pace = 61:21 2.4 miles @ 1:25 min/100 pace = 59:50 ~5% increase in performance Saved 1:31 ~5% increase on the bike: 112 miles @ 20 mph = 5:36:00 112 miles @ 21 mph = 5:20:00 Saved 16:00 Since OP is already wicked fast IMO, there is just not a lot of gains that can be made in the water. I heard on a Kona broadcast one time that "....you cannot win Kona in the water but you can lose Kona in the water".

The 1:25-1:30 was more of a sprint in a pool pace (not sprint tri swim pace). Tri swim pace has been more like 2:00/100. So how would this post be adjusted with that in mind?

2013-09-25 2:19 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Champion
11878
500050001000500100100100252525
Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by brigby1
Originally posted by badmo77a
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

MOP!!! The AG winner of the Esprit Triathlon and Triathlon de Montreal swam a 1:25 (for Oly distance 1.5km) Elite AG winner at Toronto Island Sprint swam a 1:30 per 100m over 750m. Change the thread title to "I am super fast"!!!!

Or look at the details a little more and what the OP clarified later in the thread. Her tri swim pace has very close to trishie's.

Or cut the guy some slack. His post was only about 10 mins after she clarified. He could have been in the middle of his reply, got sidetracked, then finished and posted while she posted her clarification in the mean time.

2013-09-25 2:21 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

I don't actually know what my pace is in any race for just the swim, everything includes transition. I never wear a watch in the water. But...

This year I raced an Oly - 29 minutes time on the race clock. I swam this at a pace that kept my HR EASY as I knew going in I was significantly under trained for the run.

I also raced a HIM aqua/bike. My entire focus for this race was to test my physical and mental ability to push myself at a longer distance for these 2 events since typically I have to pace easy so I don't blow up on the run. This swim was my hardest effort in a longer distance race that I have ever put out.  Unfortunately this hardest effort resulted in my slowest time ever as we found out later the course was long. I don't wear a Garmin during the swim so all I have is the time on the clock which was 47:00 . Very demoralizing to get out of the water from a hard effort expecting to PR only to see your worst time EVER!!!!!! 

In yesterdays swim I did 4 x 400's ranging from 6:24 - 6:45. 6:45 was the last set at the end of a 3800 yrd swim so I was pretty wiped out and just trying not to quit at this point.

I think someone commented on time spent working the bike or something to that effect. I have been doing that for the last couple of years. I have set PR's at several races due to my better bike times while I watch my swim & run times decline.  I feel I am in a good place with the bike. I think I can maintain what I have gained there and it is time to get to work on another weak area.

Running, I am like a hamster in a wheel. Always trying but getting no where.

Thanks for the input!

2013-09-25 2:24 PM
in reply to: snappingt

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by snappingt If you are 1:30/100 on a couple days a week of swimming, without seeing your stroke, you could probably get a lot better with the right training. The accepted paradigm in the triathlon community is what others have stated which is don't worry about the swim, get through it and spend more time on the bike and run. That's been the accepted wisdom for the past 30 years in the sport. I did my first triathlon in 1988 and it was definitely true then. But as the sport has grown and gotten more competitive there is less and less time to get out of the bike and run to remain at the front of the pack. The real "long hanging fruit" in the sport is in the swim. And at this point, it isn't so much about time. Based on what you are saying, with some work and a good program you could probably pick up 10 seconds a 100. But more importantly, you would pick up a lot more efficiency. So instead of it taking 30-40 minutes for your HR to come down after the swim, it would be 15-20 minutes and you would feel a lot more relaxed coming out of the water. The swim sets the stage for the rest of the day and as the sport has gotten more competitive it becomes that much more important. If you want to see what we do on the master swim team that I coach, you can follow our workouts here: www.magnoliamasters.com/swim-efficiency/ Any questions, let me know. Best regards, Tim Floyd

I've done 3 of your workouts lately and am enjoying the challenge. Thanks for posting them! But I'm not a fan of the fins so I skip that part.



2013-09-25 4:48 PM
in reply to: trigal38

User image


101
100
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Try to use the fins. Unless they are causing you pain then don't use them. The fins will put you in the best body position and that's what we are looking to replicate as much as possible in a workout. So if I have fin use listed, it is for a very specific reason and has a purpose in the workout.

Glad you like the workouts and you are welcome for posting.
2013-09-25 5:18 PM
in reply to: mrbbrad


1349
100010010010025
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by brigby1
Originally posted by badmo77a
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

MOP!!! The AG winner of the Esprit Triathlon and Triathlon de Montreal swam a 1:25 (for Oly distance 1.5km) Elite AG winner at Toronto Island Sprint swam a 1:30 per 100m over 750m. Change the thread title to "I am super fast"!!!!

Or look at the details a little more and what the OP clarified later in the thread. Her tri swim pace has very close to trishie's.

Or cut the guy some slack. His post was only about 10 mins after she clarified. He could have been in the middle of his reply, got sidetracked, then finished and posted while she posted her clarification in the mean time.




I'm not surprised at all with the OP's discrepancy between OWS and pool swims. My pool times are a hair slower than the OP's, yet my OWS comes out a good 10sec/100 slower in ideal OWS conditions, and nearly 15sec/100 slower in the chaos of a busy mass swim. It's still good enough for FOMOP, but for sure, if I were throwing down my pool time in OWS, I'd be much faster.

Also, coming from likely similar swim ability as OP, I think it's high yield to cut 5sec/100, unless your bike/run are subpar. For me, 5sec/100 in swimming is still very difficult to achieve (takes me about 5 months of hard work) but accounts for nearly all of my gains year to year.

I will definitely second the comments as well that getting stronger in swimming affects your whole race positively. I swam only 2sec/100 faster in a race this year compared to last year despite being a full 5sec/100 faster in the pool ( a big deal for me), but it was a moderate effort this time and I had lots of gas to hammer the bike/run, compared to last year, where I pretty much suffered at the end of the siwm, and suffered through the rest of the race.
2013-09-25 7:48 PM
in reply to: snappingt

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by snappingt Try to use the fins. Unless they are causing you pain then don't use them. The fins will put you in the best body position and that's what we are looking to replicate as much as possible in a workout. So if I have fin use listed, it is for a very specific reason and has a purpose in the workout. Glad you like the workouts and you are welcome for posting.

They just bothered my feet. I actually liked feeling so much faster during the kick sets but I've already settled an issue this year with some pain in the top of my foot and I don't want to fire it up from the fins.

2013-09-26 2:10 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Extreme Veteran
922
500100100100100
, Kobenhavns Kommune
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Great you want to improve your swim!

1st. I assume your 1:30/100 pace is on yards, right? That translates to about 1:45 on meters or around 26-27min on Olympic 1500m OWS in calm waters.

2nd: Seems like nobody have suggested it: Get a coach. Really, don't underestimate the value of somebody looking at you. A coach looking at your swim can identify where you can improve. You may have great technique but lack strength and swim fitness, or you may overcome poor technique by brute force.

A single private session with a coach should at least give you some good pointers, you may not need private coach on a regular basis. Consider doing a swim seminar/intensive weekend with a coach, or join a masters team. When you sign up for a private session or a seminar, be clear where (you think) you're at and what you want to achieve before you start, and beware that the coach may see something completely different.

Short of a coach, get somebody to record you and post the video. For best result, get both above water and under water, front and side, and better if the camera can follow you. And have somebody who knows how to handle the camera and hold it steady while following you, it can be really difficult to analyse poor video, if you can record at a high frame rate (60fps) it's easier to analyse in slow motion. In your video, don't try to swim the best technique you can master, it's not a beauty contest, we need to see your flaws! You may want to record at different intensities for better comparison: Best technique, hard pace and all out.

3rd: We don't really know what your current workout is like, how many times per week? how long workouts in both time and distance? and what's your typical interval length and rest between intervals? So you don't like fins, OK, but do you use other swimming aids? a lot or sparingly? Post what you consider to be a typical workout.

BR, Erik
2013-09-26 5:41 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Extreme Veteran
831
50010010010025
Connecticut
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
I think we'd all learn a lot by your answers to these two questions:
1) how is your kick?
2) after an hour of swimming, what, specifically feels fatigued?

If you haven't worked on your kick and don't have a full body integrated stroke, you are wasting a lot of time if you're trying to get to the next level. We all see triathletes say to ignore the kick, let the wetsuit carry your legs along the water, save them for the rest of the race. Well, that strategy is absolutely fine for most, but you don't want to be MOP any more, so you're going to need to kick if you aren't already. And it's something you learn, not just something you start doing one day. A full body stroke is essential to swimming faster, no cheating. You find me one guy who doesn't kick and can do 1:20/100 for a mile and ill find you ten other guys who go the same speed with a good kick and feel a lot less fatigued getting out of the water.

As to the fatigue question, if you shoulders are burning, there's a stroke flaw. If your back or neck hurt, there's a stroke flaw. If your pecs and delta feel nice and juiced, like after a weightlifting session, you're not too taxed cardiovascularly, your legs feel limber and activated, and your core feels strong and stable, you probably don't have any stroke flaws that will prevent you from going faster, it's just a matter of time in the pool. But I'm guessing there are still some flaws that need addressing first.



2013-09-26 6:48 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

Member
296
100100252525
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by Rogillio

It you are like most of us and have only xx hrs/week to train for triathlons then I'd say use the time to get faster on the bike.....unless you are already biking 24+ mph. If you can afford to spening another 2 hrs traing do the math and figure out where to spend that time. I looks like you are pretty fast in the water already so you might spend another 2 hrs training a week and knock 30 seconds off your swim time on your next tri. But if you spent an extra 2 hrs on the bike every week.....


Have to agree with you. I'm a BOFOP (ha!) swimmer and bike is my bread n' butter. I LOVE swim training, but the time it takes to drive to the pool, work out and drive home doesn't pay off in time saved vs. my time spent run training. It sucks, because I love swimming, but even if we had an Olympic pool right next to our house, I'd get the least payoff w/ swimming.

For most of us, you also have to factor in getting to a pool and back so it can be a huge time suck (whereas for a lot of us we can run and bike right from our house). Plus, pools may have limited hours of accessibility compared to the road. For now, I'm just doing 2x3000 yd swims per week to maintain things and am spending the extra time doing run training. With work, family, etc. that's going to be about it for now.
2013-09-26 6:58 AM
in reply to: erik.norgaard

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by erik.norgaard Great you want to improve your swim! 1st. I assume your 1:30/100 pace is on yards, right? That translates to about 1:45 on meters or around 26-27min on Olympic 1500m OWS in calm waters. 2nd: Seems like nobody have suggested it: Get a coach. Really, don't underestimate the value of somebody looking at you. A coach looking at your swim can identify where you can improve. You may have great technique but lack strength and swim fitness, or you may overcome poor technique by brute force. A single private session with a coach should at least give you some good pointers, you may not need private coach on a regular basis. Consider doing a swim seminar/intensive weekend with a coach, or join a masters team. When you sign up for a private session or a seminar, be clear where (you think) you're at and what you want to achieve before you start, and beware that the coach may see something completely different. Short of a coach, get somebody to record you and post the video. For best result, get both above water and under water, front and side, and better if the camera can follow you. And have somebody who knows how to handle the camera and hold it steady while following you, it can be really difficult to analyse poor video, if you can record at a high frame rate (60fps) it's easier to analyse in slow motion. In your video, don't try to swim the best technique you can master, it's not a beauty contest, we need to see your flaws! You may want to record at different intensities for better comparison: Best technique, hard pace and all out. 3rd: We don't really know what your current workout is like, how many times per week? how long workouts in both time and distance? and what's your typical interval length and rest between intervals? So you don't like fins, OK, but do you use other swimming aids? a lot or sparingly? Post what you consider to be a typical workout. BR, Erik

I live in a rural area, thus the reason it takes me 35 min to get to a pool. The only coaches available are already busy coaching kids swim team. They do not offer regular services for adults but I did schedule a one time stroke evaluation for Monday morning. There is one lady at the Y who teaches adult beginners when I am swimming. She has her students watch me swim as an example. I'm not saying there is nothing I need to work on, I'm trying to emphasize that there is no one to help me.

All of my workouts are in my training blog.

Thanks for the thoughts.

2013-09-26 9:01 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by erik.norgaard Great you want to improve your swim! 1st. I assume your 1:30/100 pace is on yards, right? That translates to about 1:45 on meters or around 26-27min on Olympic 1500m OWS in calm waters. 2nd: Seems like nobody have suggested it: Get a coach. Really, don't underestimate the value of somebody looking at you. A coach looking at your swim can identify where you can improve. You may have great technique but lack strength and swim fitness, or you may overcome poor technique by brute force. A single private session with a coach should at least give you some good pointers, you may not need private coach on a regular basis. Consider doing a swim seminar/intensive weekend with a coach, or join a masters team. When you sign up for a private session or a seminar, be clear where (you think) you're at and what you want to achieve before you start, and beware that the coach may see something completely different. Short of a coach, get somebody to record you and post the video. For best result, get both above water and under water, front and side, and better if the camera can follow you. And have somebody who knows how to handle the camera and hold it steady while following you, it can be really difficult to analyse poor video, if you can record at a high frame rate (60fps) it's easier to analyse in slow motion. In your video, don't try to swim the best technique you can master, it's not a beauty contest, we need to see your flaws! You may want to record at different intensities for better comparison: Best technique, hard pace and all out. 3rd: We don't really know what your current workout is like, how many times per week? how long workouts in both time and distance? and what's your typical interval length and rest between intervals? So you don't like fins, OK, but do you use other swimming aids? a lot or sparingly? Post what you consider to be a typical workout. BR, Erik

I live in a rural area, thus the reason it takes me 35 min to get to a pool. The only coaches available are already busy coaching kids swim team. They do not offer regular services for adults but I did schedule a one time stroke evaluation for Monday morning. There is one lady at the Y who teaches adult beginners when I am swimming. She has her students watch me swim as an example. I'm not saying there is nothing I need to work on, I'm trying to emphasize that there is no one to help me.

All of my workouts are in my training blog.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Here is a better description now that my kids are off to school

My WU is always 200 s/k/p and I've recently added some 50 or 100 descends. If I have not copied a workout from the internet I fall back on old favorite workouts or just make it up as I go along. Main sets might consist of 400, 300, 200, 100  with each getting faster or 100 repeats or 100 ladders, 200 repeats with a build of 25 easy/25 hard - stuff like that.

If I am getting ready for a specific race I will do repeats of that distance a couple of times before the race or if it is a longer distance I'll just swim the distance and work on trying to properly pace.

I am not great about looking at the pace clock (don't want to know ha ha ha) or paying attention to how long I rest. I am usually in a hurry so I don't like to rest long 10-15 seconds I would guess. I have made the giant step forward to purchasing a cheap waterproof watch with a lap feature and I've even worn it for my last two swims!

As far as aides go - I usually do kicks and pulls in the warm up, that's about it. I don't use any other swimming aides. I have not been working on any drills. I do like to throw in a couple of sets of 100 or 200 IM's just for fun sometimes. My total distances per swim range between 2000-3000 yards with my most recent 3800 yard swim being the longest ever for me. I am not usually tired after I swim so I know I could be working lots harder. I was tired after and definitely feeling it after that 3800 yard one though!

2013-09-26 9:18 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Master
3322
20001000100100100
Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Looking at your recent race results (HIM Aquabike and Oly distance race) I'm very confident that by swimming 3-4 times a week and doing sets of 100's at 1:45-1:50 intervals or better you can knock your 1.5K oly time down to below 27 minutes and knock your 1.2 mile HIM swim time down below 40 minutes. Actually could go 36-37 minutes there.

If you can get to where you can hold a 1:45 interval for a set of 10x100's, 5-10 sec. rest etc. in the middle or end of a 3,000 yard workout then you're talking some progress.
2013-09-26 9:29 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by fisherman76 I think we'd all learn a lot by your answers to these two questions: 1) how is your kick? 2) after an hour of swimming, what, specifically feels fatigued? If you haven't worked on your kick and don't have a full body integrated stroke, you are wasting a lot of time if you're trying to get to the next level. We all see triathletes say to ignore the kick, let the wetsuit carry your legs along the water, save them for the rest of the race. Well, that strategy is absolutely fine for most, but you don't want to be MOP any more, so you're going to need to kick if you aren't already. And it's something you learn, not just something you start doing one day. A full body stroke is essential to swimming faster, no cheating. You find me one guy who doesn't kick and can do 1:20/100 for a mile and ill find you ten other guys who go the same speed with a good kick and feel a lot less fatigued getting out of the water. As to the fatigue question, if you shoulders are burning, there's a stroke flaw. If your back or neck hurt, there's a stroke flaw. If your pecs and delta feel nice and juiced, like after a weightlifting session, you're not too taxed cardiovascularly, your legs feel limber and activated, and your core feels strong and stable, you probably don't have any stroke flaws that will prevent you from going faster, it's just a matter of time in the pool. But I'm guessing there are still some flaws that need addressing first.

Kick - I kick ok I guess? No one that has ever coached me or watched me swim has ever commented about my kick so I assume it is fine. I've been swimming for fitness for 12 years, had beginning swimming to learn proper stroke and took swim 4 fitness (coached tri training basically)where I had to relearn the improper stroke the beginner teacher taught Wink. I am not able to go to that class anymore and it has changed gears to a mostly beginner class anyway. I have not had any stroke feedback for about 2 years I guess. The last guy to watch me swim is an experienced coach and swimmer and his only suggestion was that my arms were too tense during recovery and I was wasting energy so that is something I have focused on.

If I had to identify my own limiter at this time I would say it is finessing through the pull and possibly pulling my arm out too early. I'm just guessing though because you know it is really hard to evaluate yourself.

After an hour swimming at an average pace for me nothing burns or hurts. I don't have neck pain, my shoulders do not burn. I have back issues from falling over on my bike a few years ago so if I do a lot of flip turns that can tick my back off in the bad spot.

After the long and intense swim on Tuesday I felt general fatigue like I had worked harder and a sort of strain through my left hip but I've been having some hip issues (same side as my bad back) non swimming related. I need to see the chiro again....... My lats felt fatigued like I had worked them in a good way. We'll see how I feel when I get back into the pool this afternoon!

Thanks for the input!



2013-09-26 10:29 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Regular
98
252525
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?



Morning - I took a look at your training this year thus far, as well as your race reports. Given your goal to improve race times, I have a few observations.

Your training is very swim focused (relative to the percentage of time in a tri)

January - Today (Volume hours)

Swim 71.2 hrs ~24%
Run 51.42 hrs ~17%
Bike 119.86 hr ~40%

Other ~19%

I would suggest distributing your time to increase run and bike. You've noted you improved your bike, but closer inspection of your workouts, you can improve much more. The few hours you spend on the bike can be more effective. This can be achieved by getting on a trainer and using a program like Trainer Road to improve your endurance and VO2 max. If you're limited in time, this would be the way to go.

Running - throughout your workout training and race blogs, you've noted that you don't enjoy running or is the weakest of the sports. This shows in the amout of time you're training. Aside from volume, you can make your run training more effective by working on your form, doing fartleks, 400/800 speed work, etc.

So, to address your question to improve your time? Work on your run first, then improve your bike, have faster transitions, and maintain your swim. Work on a lot of bike-run bricks also.

Tip for swim - get a gopro, record your swims and analyze the footage. You've swan for so long and are a good swimmer, but you need to have an outside perspective, literally to evaluate your swim. With the gopro, I can record in and out of the water at all angles, as well as have someone follow me with it.
2013-09-26 10:53 AM
in reply to: snappingt

User image

Elite
3373
200010001001001002525
Ontario
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Originally posted by snappingt Neil, I'm a swim coach that works a lot with triathletes and I would be happy to take a look at your workouts. I see a lot of folks in the triathlon community that want to get better at swimming think that all you do is throw a lot of volume at it and you will get better. And to some extent that is correct, but it looks like you have a running background. I've found that people with running backgrounds tend to look at training for distance swimming the same way that you would go about training for distance running. With the amount of time you can typically devote to the pool, it is probably the worst way to go about training for distance swimming. I would be happy to take a look at your workouts and let you know what I think. Also, couldn't agree with you more on the transfer of swim fitness to the bike and run. I see it all the time. And you are less likely to get injured in swimming than from the other two. Tim

Hi Tim,

I don't want to hijack Dina's thread, but I'll provide a quick rundown of what I've done lately:

  • Spent some time swimming with a Tri group 1/week (plus my own swims) late last year/beginning this year with a coach on deck following a structured workout.  Some comments on stroke, but mostly the focus was the workout.
  • Moved to just swimming solo all  the time (scheduling) and was doing most swims between 1800-2200M following the "Swim Workouts in a Binder for Triathletes".  Lots of swimming at 1000M T pace, or just under for 100's,50's.
  • July-August, followed the online program Finding Freestyle.  Didn't get faster but found I felt "better" in the water.

So far I've tried a number of different approaches, but still seem stuck.  No background in running for me, it's just where I seem to have some natural abilities - unlike in the water...

Thanks,

2013-09-26 10:58 AM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Extreme Veteran
922
500100100100100
, Kobenhavns Kommune
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
I took a look at your workouts, I see you've gotten more structure to your workouts recently and started doing longer workouts. That's great, results will come. Something doesn't compute though: You wrote you do a 1:30/100yd pace from your workouts it seems you do about 3000yd/hr, that's 2:00/100. So, you must take some 30sec rest at each 100 or swim slower in your workouts.

Originally posted by trigal38

I am not great about looking at the pace clock (don't want to know ha ha ha) or paying attention to how long I rest. I am usually in a hurry so I don't like to rest long 10-15 seconds I would guess. I have made the giant step forward to purchasing a cheap waterproof watch with a lap feature and I've even worn it for my last two swims!



The pace clock is your best friend! Really! I mean, seriously! So, get your rest under control and start using the pace clock, you get a much better idea of your actual pace and perceived effort. Leave at a fixed time, if you're slow you don't get much rest, if you're fast you get more.

Ladders are fun for variation, but it's difficult to gauge the effort compared to the previous and it's difficult to use the pace clock. So, instead do sets of say 100 or 200 leaving at a fixed time, you can see if your perceived effort corresponds to actual results.

Examples for a main set:

10x100 progressive 1-3 @1:50 or 1:45
12x100 hard @1:40

Progressive 1-3 means first normal (80%), second hard (90%), third all out (100%+). You should get about 10sec rest after the normal and 20-25sec after the all out. The tenth is normal, so you'll be ready for the next set

You can do ladders in sets like this:

12x50 progressive 1-3 @0:55
8x100 hard @1:40
4x200 pull, normal @3:40

I personally don't like to make complicated sets, I want to focus on swimming and not thinking about what comes next.

BR
2013-09-26 11:17 AM
in reply to: erik.norgaard

User image

Master
3322
20001000100100100
Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by erik.norgaard

I took a look at your workouts, I see you've gotten more structure to your workouts recently and started doing longer workouts. That's great, results will come. Something doesn't compute though: You wrote you do a 1:30/100yd pace from your workouts it seems you do about 3000yd/hr, that's 2:00/100. So, you must take some 30sec rest at each 100 or swim slower in your workouts.

Originally posted by trigal38

I am not great about looking at the pace clock (don't want to know ha ha ha) or paying attention to how long I rest. I am usually in a hurry so I don't like to rest long 10-15 seconds I would guess. I have made the giant step forward to purchasing a cheap waterproof watch with a lap feature and I've even worn it for my last two swims!



The pace clock is your best friend! Really! I mean, seriously! So, get your rest under control and start using the pace clock, you get a much better idea of your actual pace and perceived effort. Leave at a fixed time, if you're slow you don't get much rest, if you're fast you get more.

Ladders are fun for variation, but it's difficult to gauge the effort compared to the previous and it's difficult to use the pace clock. So, instead do sets of say 100 or 200 leaving at a fixed time, you can see if your perceived effort corresponds to actual results.

Examples for a main set:

10x100 progressive 1-3 @1:50 or 1:45
12x100 hard @1:40

Progressive 1-3 means first normal (80%), second hard (90%), third all out (100%+). You should get about 10sec rest after the normal and 20-25sec after the all out. The tenth is normal, so you'll be ready for the next set

You can do ladders in sets like this:

12x50 progressive 1-3 @0:55
8x100 hard @1:40
4x200 pull, normal @3:40

I personally don't like to make complicated sets, I want to focus on swimming and not thinking about what comes next.

BR


Good Stuff ^^^^^^^^
2013-09-26 3:11 PM
in reply to: reecealan

User image

Silver member
Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Ok, yes I will watch the rests. I really have not been very focused for about the last year or so due to the back pain and feeling frustrated but I am much better now and ready to work. I may knock off 4 100's and then on number 5 decide I want to lolly gag down the length of the pool with my kick board before I do another set then start again. Something like go, go, go - meh I'm tired now, who cares . No focus.

Today's workout was 30 min TT. I could not figure out how to set the timer on my fancy $10.00 watch so I actually swam 31 min 08 seconds and completed 39 laps or 1950 yards but that seems fast so I'm guessing I counted ahead a lap. So we'll say 1900 yards which works out to 1:38 per hundred. Assuming I can do math.....

My form was for sure breaking down during the last set of 10 (I counted them off in sets of 10 to keep track) as I started to get lower back fatigue. I did not feel maxed out physically during the work out but would go from feeling short of breath to telling myself that feels to easy then back to trying to pick up the pace.

Good info in this thread and thanks again everyone.

Neil I don't care if you hijack!



New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What does it take for a MOP swimmer...... Rss Feed  
Show Per page
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Swimmers help a swimmer

Started by bufit323
Views: 777 Posts: 10

2010-02-08 5:45 PM mattanderson

For all of us MOP - BOP swimmers....

Started by peto_primo
Views: 750 Posts: 6

2008-06-12 12:03 PM mrbbrad

FOP vs MOP vs BOP Pages: 1 2

Started by kproudfoot
Views: 1072 Posts: 31

2007-06-27 5:12 PM mykle15

What is a BOP and a MOP???

Started by dbrard001
Views: 262 Posts: 4

2007-06-01 1:58 PM 1stTimeTri

I'm a MOP!!!

Started by jclem
Views: 390 Posts: 8

2005-08-08 11:12 AM tupuppy
RELATED ARTICLES
date : November 28, 2012
author : AMSSM
comments : 1
The anatomy, diagnosis and treatment of swimmer's shoulder.
 
date : April 28, 2011
author : fivecents
comments : 5
What my first sprint distance triathlon taught me about myself.
date : September 12, 2009
author : Nancy Clark
comments : 0
Maintaining bone health throughout the lifespan should be a priority for all athletes, starting as youngsters and continuing as master's athletes.
 
date : December 27, 2008
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 4
Are you a new swimmer starting your triathlon training? Here are some top answers to member questions as you begin your triathlon swim training.
date : August 17, 2007
author : scoli121
comments : 6
I quickly browsed an article in Men's Health that talked about doing a triathlon, and how it wasn't really that hard. With a "tsk!" I quickly turned the page while thinking, "Yeah, right!"
 
date : April 3, 2006
author : gsmacleod
comments : 0
A three month program designed to help beginning swimmers improve technique for a sprint distance race.
date : April 17, 2005
author : Team BT
comments : 0
How to be a BOPer or MOPer in a FOPer world. As a middle of the pack athlete, I have adopted some things I do to assure a victorious feeling at every event I finish.
 
date : August 31, 2004
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 0
Most of us in the triathlon world are concerned with more than just fat burning. There are certain situations when it’s appropriate to use fins during a workout.