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2013-10-02 11:16 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain Ok, I get that.  You can't do squats for 6 months and expect that to apply to cycling strength (or force), lacking any aerobic bike trianing. 

But if you are still cycling and building the aerobic pathways, how does adding leg strength not produce any results?  I still don't understand the idea that you can't increase the 20-25% number (the amount of strength needed to move the pedals).  If my 20-25% is higher than yours, as apercentage of total strength, and everything else is equal regarding aerobic system.....won't I be a stronger/better cyclist?

Forget the 20-25%; that is dealing with the metabolic efficiency of cycling not the amount of strength available to push the pedals. The amount of force that is available to push on the pedals is going to be some fraction of 1RM but the reason why we cannot push harder is not because we are limited to that fraction of strength due to a biomechanical limitation but rather because of the biochemistry; if we improve aerobic conditioning, then we can access a higher fraction of 1RM (still small compared to 1RM) in order to push harder on the pedals. Shane

Eh...sorry to be a pain about this, but I really want to understand this stuff.  To the bolded:

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 



2013-10-02 11:27 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain Ok, I get that.  You can't do squats for 6 months and expect that to apply to cycling strength (or force), lacking any aerobic bike trianing. 

But if you are still cycling and building the aerobic pathways, how does adding leg strength not produce any results?  I still don't understand the idea that you can't increase the 20-25% number (the amount of strength needed to move the pedals).  If my 20-25% is higher than yours, as apercentage of total strength, and everything else is equal regarding aerobic system.....won't I be a stronger/better cyclist?

Forget the 20-25%; that is dealing with the metabolic efficiency of cycling not the amount of strength available to push the pedals. The amount of force that is available to push on the pedals is going to be some fraction of 1RM but the reason why we cannot push harder is not because we are limited to that fraction of strength due to a biomechanical limitation but rather because of the biochemistry; if we improve aerobic conditioning, then we can access a higher fraction of 1RM (still small compared to 1RM) in order to push harder on the pedals. Shane

Eh...sorry to be a pain about this, but I really want to understand this stuff.  To the bolded:

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 

True, but it's not going to be the same fraction. Especially with the different energy systems involved.

2013-10-02 12:07 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain Ok, I get that.  You can't do squats for 6 months and expect that to apply to cycling strength (or force), lacking any aerobic bike trianing. 

But if you are still cycling and building the aerobic pathways, how does adding leg strength not produce any results?  I still don't understand the idea that you can't increase the 20-25% number (the amount of strength needed to move the pedals).  If my 20-25% is higher than yours, as apercentage of total strength, and everything else is equal regarding aerobic system.....won't I be a stronger/better cyclist?

Forget the 20-25%; that is dealing with the metabolic efficiency of cycling not the amount of strength available to push the pedals. The amount of force that is available to push on the pedals is going to be some fraction of 1RM but the reason why we cannot push harder is not because we are limited to that fraction of strength due to a biomechanical limitation but rather because of the biochemistry; if we improve aerobic conditioning, then we can access a higher fraction of 1RM (still small compared to 1RM) in order to push harder on the pedals. Shane

Eh...sorry to be a pain about this, but I really want to understand this stuff.  To the bolded:

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 

True, but it's not going to be the same fraction. Especially with the different energy systems involved.




Aha, a breakthrough admission
2013-10-02 12:18 PM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by tomspharmacy  Aha, a breakthrough admission

???

2013-10-02 12:36 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 

If you improve aerobic conditioning, you can access a higher fraction of 1RM.  If you also improve 1RM, you may or may not access a higher fraction (although, again, the 20-25% is not a measure of what pecentage of 1RM the typical cyclist produces--so I think that number is largely unrelated to the question you are asking).  Aerobic fitness is the limiter, not 1RM.  You can boost 1RM as high as you like.  If you don't also improve aerobic conditioning (and it may be difficult to meaningfully raise 1RM without any improvment in aerobic conditioning, but this is the theory), it will basically 'sit idle'.  I believe this is the crux of it.

To the extent that strength training is beneficial, it does seem to be linked to 'low rep, high resistance' activities.  In running, this has been shown the most consistently with plyometrics where the 'transmission' is actually through better running economy.  I am not sure what kind of evidence exists on the cycling side.  But it is those elite atheltes, like your son, that seem most likley to want to pursure the marginal gains that might be achieved with such a program.  Whether he is ready for it (development-wise), I am nowhere near qualified enough to opine.

2013-10-02 12:42 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Eh...sorry to be a pain about this, but I really want to understand this stuff.  To the bolded:

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 



There are a few issues with this and although it seems reasonable, it doesn't seem to be the case that simply increasing 1RM will lead to improved power at threshold. One aspect is that anaerobic and aerobic training are mostly at odds with each other so if you are going to see gains in one, it is likely you will have to put the other into maintenance or even accept losses in the other.

Another element is that the muscle fibres involved in anaerobic (strength) efforts (fast twitch) have only moderate utility in aerobic efforts (primarily slow twitch) and the fraction of 1RM that an athlete can access is at least somewhat related to the ratio of fast and slow twitch fibres. So, if one gets stronger (fast twitch hypertrophy) the ratio of fast to slow twitch fibres is going to change and likely decrease the fraction of 1RM that can be accessed during endurance efforts.

As well, as we can see in this chart:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-level...

Most of the elements that improve aerobic performance are related to biochemical issues including the ability to deliver fuel, eliminate waste from the cells as well as generate energy within the cell; aerobic training is going to see improvements in these areas and as these adaptations occur, the fraction of 1RM that can be applied to the pedals during endurance efforts will be increased.

Shane


2013-10-02 12:45 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay
Originally posted by Left Brain

So if we improve aerobic conditioning, while also improving 1RM, can't we access a higher fraction, meaning more strength/power?  I get that we are only accessing a fraction, but a fraction of 1000 is greater than the same fraction of 500, no? 

If you improve aerobic conditioning, you can access a higher fraction of 1RM.  If you also improve 1RM, you may or may not access a higher fraction (although, again, the 20-25% is not a measure of what pecentage of 1RM the typical cyclist produces--so I think that number is largely unrelated to the question you are asking).  Aerobic fitness is the limiter, not 1RM.  You can boost 1RM as high as you like.  If you don't also improve aerobic conditioning (and it may be difficult to meaningfully raise 1RM without any improvment in aerobic conditioning, but this is the theory), it will basically 'sit idle'.  I believe this is the crux of it.

To the extent that strength training is beneficial, it does seem to be linked to 'low rep, high resistance' activities.  In running, this has been shown the most consistently with plyometrics where the 'transmission' is actually through better running economy.  I am not sure what kind of evidence exists on the cycling side.  But it is those elite atheltes, like your son, that seem most likley to want to pursure the marginal gains that might be achieved with such a program.  Whether he is ready for it (development-wise), I am nowhere near qualified enough to opine.

Yes, you nailed it.  That's why I'm so interested and trying to dig into anything I can find on the subject.  He has been told by some coaches/people that a weight program will help him.  He has been told by others that it is not necessary yet, and may never be.  The reasons are those we are discussing here vs. the fact that he is still growing and making good gains without a program that could lead to needless injury at his young age.  So my wife and I are left with trying to get ourselves in a position that we can help make a decision based on at least some science and study.  Even the idea of WHEN he would be ready, as you say, development wise, is all over the page.

2013-10-02 12:50 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Yes, you nailed it.  That's why I'm so interested and trying to dig into anything I can find on the subject.  He has been told by some coaches/people that a weight program will help him.  He has been told by others that it is not necessary yet, and may never be.  The reasons are those we are discussing here vs. the fact that he is still growing and making good gains without a program that could lead to needless injury at his young age.  So my wife and I are left with trying to get ourselves in a position that we can help make a decision based on at least some science and study.  Even the idea of WHEN he would be ready, as you say, development wise, is all over the page.



If he is still making gains, I would include strength work that works on any imbalances (worth being assessed by someone who knows what they are talking about) and skip anything that is designed to see him address maximal strength at this point.

Shane
2013-10-02 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by Left Brain Yes, you nailed it.  That's why I'm so interested and trying to dig into anything I can find on the subject.  He has been told by some coaches/people that a weight program will help him.  He has been told by others that it is not necessary yet, and may never be.  The reasons are those we are discussing here vs. the fact that he is still growing and making good gains without a program that could lead to needless injury at his young age.  So my wife and I are left with trying to get ourselves in a position that we can help make a decision based on at least some science and study.  Even the idea of WHEN he would be ready, as you say, development wise, is all over the page.
If he is still making gains, I would include strength work that works on any imbalances (worth being assessed by someone who knows what they are talking about) and skip anything that is designed to see him address maximal strength at this point. Shane

This is exactly what I was going to say.  IMO, as a coach and father, if he's still making gains, and you want him to be able to continue competing long-term, adding strength training that targets imbalances (both existing and potential caused by large amounts of s/b/r), stability, and movement dysfunctions would be beneficial.

ETA:  If/when he stops making gains, then ST with the goal of maximal strength improvements might make more sense - Not a light weight/high rep program, but a high weight/low rep program instead.



Edited by TriMyBest 2013-10-02 1:27 PM
2013-10-02 1:39 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
I can't thank you guys/gals enough for the information and input here..... without a doubt I understand this issue X10 from where I was.
2013-10-02 5:50 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by Left Brain I can't thank you guys/gals enough for the information and input here..... without a doubt I understand this issue X10 from where I was.

 

word.  one of the best threads I've ever participated in.



2013-10-03 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
The problem with all these thoughts on "weight training" is that there is so much mis understood information. People think weight training is doing bench press, squats, etc in the weight room, but really there is so much more then that. What compounds this even more is the absence of studies, that only look for performance gains through measures of speed, power output, etc. What these studies cannot test is EFFICIENCY.

For example, lets say you do a core focus program for your next IM. If I were in charge of this program I would do 1-2 core specific exercises, with the rest being olympic lifts, hip-hinge movements, proprioceptive enriched platforms, med ball/kettlebell work etc. I would not expect an athlete to run "faster" because of this, but instead run more efficient and keep proper form longer into the race, which, in turn would translate it too fatiguing later in the race. i.e faster.

Add to this that ALOT of AG'ers come into this sport with terrible posture to begin and strength training can improve posture, which again, in turn will improve form in SBR.

Edited by bcagle25 2013-10-03 3:37 PM
2013-10-03 4:06 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by bcagle25 The problem with all these thoughts on "weight training" is that there is so much mis understood information. People think weight training is doing bench press, squats, etc in the weight room, but really there is so much more then that. What compounds this even more is the absence of studies, that only look for performance gains through measures of speed, power output, etc. What these studies cannot test is EFFICIENCY. For example, lets say you do a core focus program for your next IM. If I were in charge of this program I would do 1-2 core specific exercises, with the rest being olympic lifts, hip-hinge movements, proprioceptive enriched platforms, med ball/kettlebell work etc. I would not expect an athlete to run "faster" because of this, but instead run more efficient and keep proper form longer into the race, which, in turn would translate it too fatiguing later in the race. i.e faster. Add to this that ALOT of AG'ers come into this sport with terrible posture to begin and strength training can improve posture, which again, in turn will improve form in SBR.

I agree with much of what Ben is saying.  Reading my posts, it may sound like I'm opposed to strength training, but I'm actually a proponent of it.  Just not traditional generic strength programs that can be found online and in magazines, and not with the intent of making someone faster directly.

Maybe it's semantics, but I do differ slightly from what Ben is saying.  Rather than doing strength training with the goal of reducing fatigue while racing, my opinion is to use it primarily to correct or avoid imbalances, postural issues, and movement dysfunctions allowing the athlete to handle a greater training load before their body breaks down and reduce the risk of injuries caused by imbalances, postural issues, and movement dysfunctions, which then results in faster racing.

Basically, strength training won't make an athlete significantly faster, but the right custom program can improve their potential to go faster.

2013-10-03 4:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

This graph clearly shows that weight training improves cycling power.





(cycling power with weight training graph.jpg)



Attachments
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cycling power with weight training graph.jpg (58KB - 14 downloads)
2013-10-03 4:38 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by bcagle25 The problem with all these thoughts on "weight training" is that there is so much mis understood information. People think weight training is doing bench press, squats, etc in the weight room, but really there is so much more then that. What compounds this even more is the absence of studies, that only look for performance gains through measures of speed, power output, etc. What these studies cannot test is EFFICIENCY. For example, lets say you do a core focus program for your next IM. If I were in charge of this program I would do 1-2 core specific exercises, with the rest being olympic lifts, hip-hinge movements, proprioceptive enriched platforms, med ball/kettlebell work etc. I would not expect an athlete to run "faster" because of this, but instead run more efficient and keep proper form longer into the race, which, in turn would translate it too fatiguing later in the race. i.e faster. Add to this that ALOT of AG'ers come into this sport with terrible posture to begin and strength training can improve posture, which again, in turn will improve form in SBR.

I agree with much of what Ben is saying.  Reading my posts, it may sound like I'm opposed to strength training, but I'm actually a proponent of it.  Just not traditional generic strength programs that can be found online and in magazines, and not with the intent of making someone faster directly.

Maybe it's semantics, but I do differ slightly from what Ben is saying.  Rather than doing strength training with the goal of reducing fatigue while racing, my opinion is to use it primarily to correct or avoid imbalances, postural issues, and movement dysfunctions allowing the athlete to handle a greater training load before their body breaks down and reduce the risk of injuries caused by imbalances, postural issues, and movement dysfunctions, which then results in faster racing.



Basically, strength training won't make an athlete significantly faster, but the right custom program can improve their potential to go faster.




Don, the last line you stated is right on! I also agree 100% on muscle imbalances, postural issues, etc.
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