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2013-09-30 9:40 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: New Marathon World Record at Berlin Marathon
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by TriMyBest
Originally posted by qrkidStirring the pot.Hmm oddly enough in the last 9-10wk of training he did multiple 20 - 25 milers with large parts of those between 98% and 103% of race pace. He also did a couple of..........wait for it...................28 milers at 90% of race pace.
. ???How is that stirring the pot???

I suppose because there is a common belief that you don't need to run 22+ miles for marathon training.  But when you do the math, it makes sense.

Elite marathoner who's marathon pace is 4:50 mm.  90% of race pace is roughly 5:22 miles.  So a 28 mile run at that pace takes him 2 hours and 31 minutes to finish.

So now lets take the average age group marathoner who's in great shape.  Say his marathon pace is 8:00 mm.  90% of race pace is roughly 8:54 mm.  If he were to run at that pace for 2 hours and 31 minutes, that would get him to 17 miles.

So while a 28 mile long run at 90% of race pace may sound like a lot...it's creating significantly less training stress to an elite marathoner as it does to a pretty good age grouper.  So just because elite marathoners are doing them, it doesn't mean you should be doing them too.

I actually figured that was what qrkid was implying, but wanted to see if he realized that it wasn't "stirring the pot" because of the difference in paces, training volume, ability to recover, etc between the best marathoner in the world and the average AGer. Jason, I think you explain well why training time is more relevant than distance in most of these discussions.


2013-10-01 7:29 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: New Marathon World Record at Berlin Marathon
well it is stirring the pot because not only do a lot of people on BT think you do not need that type of volume but often times people will also say things like it is ok to split up a 20mi run into 2 x10milers seprated by a substantial break because it is overall volume that is important and not the 20 milers. Not saying overall volume is not important ( I am a very firm believer in volume).

As to the training stress of a 28mi run on Kipsang VS AGer. You are spot on. I do however look at it this way.

In Berlin, Kipsang had to run 26.2mi and the guy/girl who ran 3:45 had to run 26.2 miles. Both people have to go the same distance. Now can your average AGer run at the same intensity or volume as Kipsang day in and day out? No most probably not, but I believe that there is a need to go more than 20-22mi and to do it with large parts at MP for the AGer as there is for Kipsang. Now your AGer will not do it as often as Kipsang, but they need to do it if they want to be successful at the marathon distance.

OBV there are many ways to skin a cat but there is a reason that the vast majority of Elites and AGers who are the most successful at he marathon incorporate long runs into their marathon build ups on a regular basis
2013-10-01 12:34 PM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: New Marathon World Record at Berlin Marathon

Originally posted by qrkid well it is stirring the pot because not only do a lot of people on BT think you do not need that type of volume but often times people will also say things like it is ok to split up a 20mi run into 2 x10milers seprated by a substantial break because it is overall volume that is important and not the 20 milers. Not saying overall volume is not important ( I am a very firm believer in volume). As to the training stress of a 28mi run on Kipsang VS AGer. You are spot on. I do however look at it this way. In Berlin, Kipsang had to run 26.2mi and the guy/girl who ran 3:45 had to run 26.2 miles. Both people have to go the same distance. Now can your average AGer run at the same intensity or volume as Kipsang day in and day out? No most probably not, but I believe that there is a need to go more than 20-22mi and to do it with large parts at MP for the AGer as there is for Kipsang. Now your AGer will not do it as often as Kipsang, but they need to do it if they want to be successful at the marathon distance. OBV there are many ways to skin a cat but there is a reason that the vast majority of Elites and AGers who are the most successful at he marathon incorporate long runs into their marathon build ups on a regular basis

Yes, I would agree that the race distance is the race distance.  We don't race by how far we cover in X amount of time.

So that said...and I'll probably get flamed for this...the vast majority of AGers who are doing a marathon are not racing it.  They're doing it for completion.  Myself included.  I've done 3 marathons, and my last is where I thought I had built myself up into 3:40 shape, but ended up running 3:53 on a bad day.  Then I realized that while marathons can be a fun experience...*I* feel I have no business racing them at my current fitness.  I just don't have the fitness base to train for it properly and put in those 20-22 mile long runs without them either taking too long or completely wrecking me and the training to follow.

I made the decision for myself that unless I'm going to get serious about running for something like a BQ (3:05 for me), I'm going to take an approach to marathon training (if I even decide to do another marathon) where 20+ milers don't matter to me.  I rather keep my long runs shorter, my overall volume as high as possible given my fitness, and just run what I can run on race day.  I don't need to take an elite marathoner's approach to marathon training if I'm nowhere near elite.

Just my opinion though

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