General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long Runs w\ IM Training Rss Feed  
Moderators: jmk-brooklyn, Ron Reply
2013-10-10 9:09 AM

User image

Extreme Veteran
745
50010010025
Subject: Long Runs w\ IM Training
I've been training for IMFL (few more weeks). I have several 2-2.5 hour long runs under the belt. I've heard and read that running over 2.5 hours is not advised and not beneficial. I guess that is why my plan does not have me running over 2.5 hours. This blows my mind because I will still have at least 11 more miles to go come race day. But, I stuck it out. Last night, I decided to run a little longer than 2.5 hours. That lasted all of 5 minutes because my legs started cramping. My left foot even started cramping. This was just a stand alone long run. No biking before hand.

Lately, I have been seeing BT posts stating that cramps are not caused by low levels of water, sodium, electolytes, etc. However, it's because one is going harder than the legs can handle. This run was not taxing on my lungs\heart. I was taking in plenty of water and nutrition. My legs felt fine up until the cramps. They just came out of the blue.

I have a couple marathons on the books. It's always been training based off miles. Longest run was always 22 miles. This training is based off time. Not being able to run longer 2.5 hours coupled with last night's crampfest has me worried.


2013-10-10 9:23 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

over a barrier
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
That individual run may not have felt taxing, but coupled with all your workouts in the last few days it WAS taxing, which is one of the reasons most people don't want to run over 2.5 hrs. Throw in the recovery cost of running that long and you can really blow a hole in your training downstream.

2013-10-10 9:59 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

Not a Coach
11039
50005000100025
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Stop worrying.  Keep with your plan.
2013-10-10 9:59 AM
in reply to: #4874364

User image

Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
I'll let you know how my experience goes in a few days.

I've also done a few stand alone marathons and have always gone up to 20 mile long runs multiple times in training.

For my IM training my longest runs were 16.5 and 17. About 2.75 hours for me and I don't think I could have managed much more without digging a deep recovery cost hole. These were part of some big weeks, 20+ hours with around 50 miles of running so I'm banking on my overall run training than one long run.

Now that tapered, my legs feel much better, paces have speed up cliser to normal, abd I feel much more capable of running longer if I had to.

Don't underestimate the overall fatigue you build up in IM training and realize that just because others are training at a certain level it doesn't mean that you should to.
2013-10-10 10:42 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

Kansas
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

Originally posted by GAUG3 I've been training for IMFL (few more weeks). I have several 2-2.5 hour long runs under the belt. I've heard and read that running over 2.5 hours is not advised and not beneficial.

Depends on the person. I incorporated a 2.5-hr run and TWO 3-hr runs in my last IM training cycle (after my coach recommended this in my previous IM). I'm a slower runner so a 3-hour run only yields me 16 miles. I don't feel capping my runs at 2.5 hours (14.2 miles) would get ME where I need to be. YMMV.

2013-10-10 1:12 PM
in reply to: lisac957

User image

Champion
10460
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by GAUG3 I've been training for IMFL (few more weeks). I have several 2-2.5 hour long runs under the belt. I've heard and read that running over 2.5 hours is not advised and not beneficial.

Depends on the person. I incorporated a 2.5-hr run and TWO 3-hr runs in my last IM training cycle (after my coach recommended this in my previous IM). I'm a slower runner so a 3-hour run only yields me 16 miles. I don't feel capping my runs at 2.5 hours (14.2 miles) would get ME where I need to be. YMMV.




Agreed.

So many people are focused on training by time. But I think training by time doesn't always work for everyone.



2013-10-10 1:17 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

User image

Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

Originally posted by JohnnyKay Stop worrying.  Keep with your plan.

This.  Training for and running a standalone mary is a different animal than training and running an IM mary.  For me, anything over 2.5 hours seemed wasteful.  Not sure that worked out so well on IM day, but there are many reasons why an IM can go south

2013-10-10 1:30 PM
in reply to: Jason N

User image

Expert
1028
100025
Detroit, MI. Kinda.
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
I can tell you that every time I increased my runs beyond the 2.5 hour mark, they became very tough for the last 2 miles. 2.5 hours only got me about 16 miles...I snuck in an 18 and two 20-milers and come race day (to the tune of 3.25 hours), and I was very glad I did the extra come race day.
2013-10-10 3:29 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

Expert
1120
1000100
Fernandina Beach, FL
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
My longest runs have been 18 miles which was just over the 2.5 hour mark for IMFL. Everybody has a bad day maybe this was just yours? I wouldn't stress it too much. I agree with what someone said that maybe the run itself wasn't too taxing but the training during the week may have been. It's almost taper time not too much to gain by going over your training plan. Better to show up under trained than over trained
2013-10-10 5:26 PM
in reply to: running2far

Master
7383
50002000100100100252525
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

Originally posted by running2far That individual run may not have felt taxing, but coupled with all your workouts in the last few days it WAS taxing, which is one of the reasons most people don't want to run over 2.5 hrs. Throw in the recovery cost of running that long and you can really blow a hole in your training downstream.

Yes, and as other said, follow the plan. It is taking these things into account. You can't take workouts in a vacuum like that.

2013-10-10 6:38 PM
in reply to: GAUG3


282
100100252525
Arden, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
For my IM max run was only 15 miles(for me that was 3 hours). I never even worried about it, as there's no way of simulating running 26.2 miles after 112 off the bike. Can't be done, even if you ran 30 miles in training. Nothing prepares you for it.
Trust your plan and you'll be fine.


2013-10-11 7:32 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

Extreme Veteran
1405
1000100100100100
Cypress, TX
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

I've said this before... I'm a firm believer that volume via frequency trumps long running.  It's the accumulated mileage and training stress that makes your day and not the fact you could run 3 hours at a time.  My longest run training for Ironman Canada was 11 miles and I PR'd the IM marathon after a really tough bike course and a run course with 1,300' of climbing.  I'm also doing IMFL and expect to crush my IM marathon PR there.  Longest run in my build up to IMFL so far has been 10 miles.  Almost every run has been in the 60-90 minute range.  There's not much recovery, less effect on future workouts and makes the runs repeatable.  You could also split your long runs into an AM and PM component.  Better recovery and, frankly, better quality runs.

2013-10-11 7:41 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

User image

Elite
3422
20001000100100100100
Ontario
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

I've said this before... I'm a firm believer that volume via frequency trumps long running.  It's the accumulated mileage and training stress that makes your day and not the fact you could run 3 hours at a time.  My longest run training for Ironman Canada was 11 miles and I PR'd the IM marathon after a really tough bike course and a run course with 1,300' of climbing.  I'm also doing IMFL and expect to crush my IM marathon PR there.  Longest run in my build up to IMFL so far has been 10 miles.  Almost every run has been in the 60-90 minute range.  There's not much recovery, less effect on future workouts and makes the runs repeatable.  You could also split your long runs into an AM and PM component.  Better recovery and, frankly, better quality runs.

GMAN - I like the idea of this approach, but I'm also curious if you would follow this same protocol if you were an IM rookie, or only had a couple under your belt.  You're a seasoned athlete, and I think part of the reason this works well for you is the fact you have so many cumulative miles, plus you have done long training runs/races in the past (this is an assumption on my part).  While I really like frequency + total volume trumping excessive long runs, I wonder if those with less experience have to take a path of longer runs to better guage pacing, nutrition, fatigue, etc.

This coming from someone who's never run a marathon or done a full IM.

2013-10-11 8:10 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

User image

Extreme Veteran
1405
1000100100100100
Cypress, TX
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Originally posted by GoFaster
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

I've said this before... I'm a firm believer that volume via frequency trumps long running.  It's the accumulated mileage and training stress that makes your day and not the fact you could run 3 hours at a time.  My longest run training for Ironman Canada was 11 miles and I PR'd the IM marathon after a really tough bike course and a run course with 1,300' of climbing.  I'm also doing IMFL and expect to crush my IM marathon PR there.  Longest run in my build up to IMFL so far has been 10 miles.  Almost every run has been in the 60-90 minute range.  There's not much recovery, less effect on future workouts and makes the runs repeatable.  You could also split your long runs into an AM and PM component.  Better recovery and, frankly, better quality runs.

GMAN - I like the idea of this approach, but I'm also curious if you would follow this same protocol if you were an IM rookie, or only had a couple under your belt.  You're a seasoned athlete, and I think part of the reason this works well for you is the fact you have so many cumulative miles, plus you have done long training runs/races in the past (this is an assumption on my part).  While I really like frequency + total volume trumping excessive long runs, I wonder if those with less experience have to take a path of longer runs to better guage pacing, nutrition, fatigue, etc.

This coming from someone who's never run a marathon or done a full IM.

I probably wouldn't do that as an IM rookie (and I didn't).  Not because it wouldn't work but because it would sound somewhat counter-intuitive to an IM rookie.  I think it would be a hard mental hurdle for an IM rookie to overcome: "You mean I'm going to run 26.2 miles after a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride on 10 mile training runs!!!"

I get that it sounds kind of a$$ backwards.

I'm sure part of the reason this works for me is because I do have a tremendous amount of base mileage built up over the years.  I certainly can't deny that being a factor.  How quantifiable I do not know.  Human physiology is human physiology.

I'd be remiss in not pointing out that any kind of run training is next to worthless without the proper bike fitness and bike execution.  My best advice for IM rookies is "It's all about the bike!"  Not in 100% literal terms because you still have to be prepared for the swim and have the ability to run but screwing up the bike will screw up your race no matter how good or bad a runner you are or how much run training you did.

2013-10-11 8:50 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

User image

Extreme Veteran
745
50010010025
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
This is my first IM. I'm that rookie that thinks 2-2.5 hour runs are not enough especially after that crampfest 5 minutes after the 2.5 hour mark. Hell... I practically have another half marathon to run. I get that it's about recovery so I can hit the next workout hard. I'm thankful that the recoveries have been great.

As for the bike, I have been hitting the bike hard (for me). After this weekend, I will have twelve 3-5.5 hour long bike rides.

Thank you for the replies. It's the first one and I'm just doubting the run portion.
2013-10-11 9:55 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

User image

Extreme Veteran
1405
1000100100100100
Cypress, TX
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

Originally posted by GAUG3  It's the first one and I'm just doubting the run portion.

I think just about all of us had the same doubts going into our first one.  I was terrified of the IM marathon to the point it kept me up a couple of nights worrying about it.  I just trusted the training and the wisdom of others.  My run training back then was the more typical 2:30 long runs.  I had the same thoughts that no way was that enough.  Guess what?  Come race day when all the accumulated training stress meshes with the rest and recovery from the taper period... the run wasn't a big deal at all.  Not saying it wasn't a challenge but it was far less of a challenge than I thought it would have been.  I crossed the finish line and thought to myself, "That wasn't that bad at all.

I did two IM's (and about 8 HIM's) with typical triathlon run training.  I did one IM on zero run training due to injury and I did my last HIM and IM using the volume through frequency way of thinking.  I'm a much better runner now than I have ever been.  That's my n=1.  Certainly base endurance and experience play a factor but ditching the long run has worked great for me on many levels.  It's both physically and mentally less taxing and fits better into my day-to-day schedule.



2013-10-11 10:09 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

User image

Extreme Veteran
849
50010010010025
Connecticut
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
So I've been following this, and I'm popping my IM cherry next year. Is the collective wisdom that I should
1) keep my long runs <15 miles
2) since it's my first time, incorporate several longer runs
3) keep my long runs <10 miles, but do a marathon (haven't done one) for the psychological aspect/learning experience

Fwiw, I've only been running for ~3 years, currently run about 30 miles a week, but have no pain or issues, "found" my gait and shoe a long time ago, etc. I want to toe the line for the IM with total confidence, which I have on the swim and bike, but don't on the run, it's just completely unknown to me what happens after 15 miles.
2013-10-11 10:19 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

User image

Not a Coach
11039
50005000100025
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training

Run frequently.  Do long runs, but don't get overly stressed about the mileage you achieve.  If you are nervous about where your long run is relative to the final 26.2, you could consider one of several options:

- go ahead and do one really long run (incorporate walking--you will be doing some in the IM anyway)

- do a very long bike (like 120mi+)

- do an all day hike (like 12+ hours)

None of those will make much difference in your actual marathon time in the IM, but should give you the confidence you can finish regardless of how your day goes.  However, if you've done the trianing, you should be able to gain enough confidence that none of the above are necessary.

 

2013-10-11 11:57 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

User image

Elite
3422
20001000100100100100
Ontario
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by GAUG3  It's the first one and I'm just doubting the run portion.

I think just about all of us had the same doubts going into our first one.  I was terrified of the IM marathon to the point it kept me up a couple of nights worrying about it.  I just trusted the training and the wisdom of others.  My run training back then was the more typical 2:30 long runs.  I had the same thoughts that no way was that enough.  Guess what?  Come race day when all the accumulated training stress meshes with the rest and recovery from the taper period... the run wasn't a big deal at all.  Not saying it wasn't a challenge but it was far less of a challenge than I thought it would have been.  I crossed the finish line and thought to myself, "That wasn't that bad at all.

I did two IM's (and about 8 HIM's) with typical triathlon run training.  I did one IM on zero run training due to injury and I did my last HIM and IM using the volume through frequency way of thinking.  I'm a much better runner now than I have ever been.  That's my n=1.  Certainly base endurance and experience play a factor but ditching the long run has worked great for me on many levels.  It's both physically and mentally less taxing and fits better into my day-to-day schedule.

Without taking the thread on too much of a tangent, do you follow the same philisophy for rides - i.e. max them out around 3.5-4.5 hours, but riding at a higher intensity/wattage than planned for your IM?

2013-10-11 12:35 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

User image

Extreme Veteran
1405
1000100100100100
Cypress, TX
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Originally posted by GoFaster 

Without taking the thread on too much of a tangent, do you follow the same philisophy for rides - i.e. max them out around 3.5-4.5 hours, but riding at a higher intensity/wattage than planned for your IM?

 

Generally, yes I do.  I really don't like sitting on a bike seat for 5+ hours.

2013-10-12 1:32 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

User image

Elite
4803
20002000500100100100
Alturas, California
Gold member
Subject: RE: Long Runs w\ IM Training
Ya your long run of 2.5 hours is ideal, don't go over 3:00 hours because you need to recover for a 100 mile bike ride etc. Most folks do 16 to 18 miles for a long run for IM. If you recover faster you can go closer to 3 hours if you recover slower go more closer to 2.5 hours.


New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long Runs w\ IM Training Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

HIM training...how long for long bikes/runs??

Started by Kermat89
Views: 2240 Posts: 18

2013-08-05 1:48 PM svalenzuela

No long runs for IM training?

Started by MRDAVIDALEXANDER
Views: 537 Posts: 10

2012-07-10 7:53 PM blue_dooey

No long runs for IM training?

Started by MRDAVIDALEXANDER
Views: 1322 Posts: 18

2012-07-12 7:14 AM brigby1

HIM Training-How long is your longest run?

Started by owl_girl
Views: 1132 Posts: 24

2010-01-23 5:31 PM newbz

Longest run before an IM?

Started by PennState
Views: 573 Posts: 14

2009-06-21 5:41 PM JorgeM
RELATED ARTICLES
date : April 26, 2010
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Discussions on swimming with no pool, IM long bike and run scheduling, the importance of base, finding motivation, Zoot shoes and running gait analysis.
 
date : June 11, 2007
author : Total Immersion
comments : 3
Most of those thinking about tackling a long swim instinctively feel it’s necessary to Do much to build endurance - more yards, harder laps. But a focus on Receiving is ideal for long distances.
date : April 11, 2007
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Discussion on the walk/run technique, run injury and cadence, barefoot running, staying aero on long climbs and HIM preparation
 
date : November 9, 2006
author : BobbyMcgee
comments : 0
How long should the 1st long run of a new season be and how to determine volumes when beginning training for a specific event.
date : March 5, 2006
author : KevinKonczak
comments : 0
Discussion on tapering, treadmill workout, long run issues, insituting run/walk, surrounded by hills and knowing your LT.
 
date : September 3, 2005
author : trad_it
comments : 0
Now, for the last 20 years I’ve always though that jogging seemed about as interesting as watching paint dry, and you know what? That’s how it turned out to be.
date : February 16, 2005
author : trilover
comments : 0
Byrn won’t hold your hand through the long hours and miles required finishing or for success in an IM, he can only show you how to get there. The work is up to you.
 
date : September 14, 2004
author : tri_again
comments : 0
How to juggle life's demands with triathlon training needs.