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2013-10-21 12:52 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 



2013-10-21 3:22 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Because people are too busy watching Duck Dynasty and Honey Boo Boo than to care about what's going on with the government.

Personally, I'm too busy watching the new season of the Walking Dead and hoping my high school football team can FINALLY win state again.
2013-10-22 1:19 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 




Of course they are, they earned everything that they are getting and more! It's those that have never done anything to receive the benefits that they get that could careless how hard we work!

The real pain will be felt when inflation goes through the roof, we cannot continue to increase the debt with out that happening at some point! we will all feel it then and those that voted for the free stuff will feel it the most.
2013-10-23 7:20 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 




I think everyone can agree that raising and supporting armies is an expressed responsibility of the federal government and to which I think we all can be rather embarrassed on how poorly a job the feds do at the supporting part.

Perhaps if taxpayer monies were not directed to things the feds should not be doing (like building half billion dollar health insurance websites) they would do a better job at things they are supposed to do.
2013-10-24 3:42 PM
in reply to: Jackemy1

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 

I think everyone can agree that raising and supporting armies is an expressed responsibility of the federal government and to which I think we all can be rather embarrassed on how poorly a job the feds do at the supporting part. Perhaps if taxpayer monies were not directed to things the feds should not be doing (like building half billion dollar health insurance websites) they would do a better job at things they are supposed to do.

(Or fighting for the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in Federal Courts, or forcing a 24 BILLION dollar govt. shutdown)

I also think everyone can agree this countries' homeless/jobless/elderly/sick etc. should not have to rely solely on the generous chairitable handouts of the lucky 48%.

So...If we as a country can't/won't afford to provide them aid and support, and we can't (legally) put them all on a deserted island somewhere out of minds eye.  What SHOULD we do with that bothersome 52%.

2013-10-24 3:47 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 

I think everyone can agree that raising and supporting armies is an expressed responsibility of the federal government and to which I think we all can be rather embarrassed on how poorly a job the feds do at the supporting part. Perhaps if taxpayer monies were not directed to things the feds should not be doing (like building half billion dollar health insurance websites) they would do a better job at things they are supposed to do.

(Or fighting for the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in Federal Courts, or forcing a 24 BILLION dollar govt. shutdown)

I also think everyone can agree this countries' homeless/jobless/elderly/sick etc. should not have to rely solely on the generous chairitable handouts of the lucky 48%.

So...If we as a country can't/won't afford to provide them aid and support, and we can't (legally) put them all on a deserted island somewhere out of minds eye.  What SHOULD we do with that bothersome 52%.




If we put them on a desert island who will work in our shopping malls and make us lunch at McDonald'ss or Jimmy Johns?


2013-10-24 3:53 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 

I think everyone can agree that raising and supporting armies is an expressed responsibility of the federal government and to which I think we all can be rather embarrassed on how poorly a job the feds do at the supporting part. Perhaps if taxpayer monies were not directed to things the feds should not be doing (like building half billion dollar health insurance websites) they would do a better job at things they are supposed to do.

(Or fighting for the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in Federal Courts, or forcing a 24 BILLION dollar govt. shutdown)

I also think everyone can agree this countries' homeless/jobless/elderly/sick etc. should not have to rely solely on the generous chairitable handouts of the lucky 48%.

So...If we as a country can't/won't afford to provide them aid and support, and we can't (legally) put them all on a deserted island somewhere out of minds eye.  What SHOULD we do with that bothersome 52%.

If we put them on a desert island who will work in our shopping malls and make us lunch at McDonald'ss or Jimmy Johns?

RIGHT!  How DARE they, those 52%ers, accept jobs that pay less than minimum wage.  Wait-maybe they could all go to college.  YES!  Get Govt subsidized loans and go to college.....What's that?  Oh, the 48% don't like the Student Loan program, either?  Oh, well.  Deserted Island it IS!

2013-10-24 4:00 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by Aarondb4

The 48% that give more to the government than they get back are the people who are peeved about the spending and debt problems in Washington. The other 52% could care less. The 48% have to work harder and longer to pay for all this so we don't have time to hit the streets and protest, so we gripe on forums and social media instead.

The hundreds of Military Veterans I work with every day who are receiving financial compensation for their service connected disabilities are Sooooo grateful for the sacrifices you're making for our country. 

I think everyone can agree that raising and supporting armies is an expressed responsibility of the federal government and to which I think we all can be rather embarrassed on how poorly a job the feds do at the supporting part. Perhaps if taxpayer monies were not directed to things the feds should not be doing (like building half billion dollar health insurance websites) they would do a better job at things they are supposed to do.

(Or fighting for the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in Federal Courts, or forcing a 24 BILLION dollar govt. shutdown)

I also think everyone can agree this countries' homeless/jobless/elderly/sick etc. should not have to rely solely on the generous chairitable handouts of the lucky 48%.

So...If we as a country can't/won't afford to provide them aid and support, and we can't (legally) put them all on a deserted island somewhere out of minds eye.  What SHOULD we do with that bothersome 52%.

I'm not sure why the democrats decided to fight against DOMA and let the government shut down.  You should talk to them about that.

as for the 48% there are obviously going to be a percentage of that where people can easily agree on supporting them.  For example military retirement/disability, true need based entitlements for people with mental/physical handicaps that aren't capable of working.  Those are easy in my opinion.

The handouts I have issue with are the ones that are handed out to able bodied people without condition for simply holding out their hand.  I have talked about it many times before, but I come from a multi-generational family that do nothing but suck from the system.  Have kids, get on welfare, get a free house, food stamps, and never get a job.  Then fake up a bad back "disability" for when the kids move out so you can get disability/SSI at an early age and retire.

I'm all for a helping hand for anyone who has bad breaks in life, and that includes able bodied people.  However, there have to be limits because there's a fine line between helping a person up and pushing them down.  If you give somebody more than they could get by getting a job you remove all incentive they have to go get a job.  That's not a good thing.

So, for starters I'd say put limits on entitlements as to how long you can get them.  Trust me, if there are people who are able bodied and they don't get a hand out they will go out and find a job, or create a job.  They're not stupid.

The funny part is entitlements is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to wasteful spending.  I am far more ticked off about the government sending Billions of dollars to countries that hate us and blowing Billions of dollars propping up stupid business ideas of buddies that get them into office.

2013-10-24 4:14 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

2013-10-24 5:35 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 




None will. Its much easier to just reduce the future benefits and raise the future taxes on the young who can't vote yet, which is exactly the path we have been on for about the last 20 years. Put it on the national credit card and kick the can down the road until your kids can makes sacrifices to pay for the current/past governmental excesses.
2013-10-25 6:50 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 




Its actually easier than you think. Come join me for a shopping adventure at Wal Mart in my area (hint: not far from where the food stamp shoppers emptied the shelves) and it is quite easy to determine who really needs gov. assistance and who is just living off working folks. By they way, allow 30 extra minutes in the check out line to allow for the cashier to tell them for the 100th time, "that doesn't qualify for WIC".

As for their individual freedoms being intruded on, how about mine? Why are they entitled to a part if my life, the part I spend working to provide a better life for my family? I live in one of the poorest areas in one of the poorest states and I see everyday the abuse by a majority of those living off the government. Quite frankly, I am tired of supporting them at the expense of MY family.


2013-10-25 9:48 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it?

 

2013-10-25 11:06 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it? 

Well!  That's a complex question.  Probably deserves it's own thread....but here's what a center-left leaning person would do....In no order

*  Cut Defense budget (reduce size, scope and mission parameters of each branch-particularly our investments in US troop presence abroad) Civillian contractors can re-task their efforts to Nation Building at home.

*  Improve tax code so there is a fairness for everyone.  Flat tax, sure charge, whatever?  Our fiscal mess won't go away by spending cuts alone.

*  Reinvent a Civilian Workforce program (ala New Deal)-those who need govt. assistance will work re-building the country-roads, bridges, woodlands, agriculture etc.  Everyone works in whatever capacity they can manage.  They will be paid, housed, fed and cared for. But they WILL work.

*  Term limits for elected officials.  If we can't get the money out of Politics, then move the Politics away from the money. 

 

2013-10-25 11:15 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it? 

Well!  That's a complex question.  Probably deserves it's own thread....but here's what a center-left leaning person would do....In no order

*  Cut Defense budget (reduce size, scope and mission parameters of each branch-particularly our investments in US troop presence abroad) Civillian contractors can re-task their efforts to Nation Building at home.

*  Improve tax code so there is a fairness for everyone.  Flat tax, sure charge, whatever?  Our fiscal mess won't go away by spending cuts alone.

*  Reinvent a Civilian Workforce program (ala New Deal)-those who need govt. assistance will work re-building the country-roads, bridges, woodlands, agriculture etc.  Everyone works in whatever capacity they can manage.  They will be paid, housed, fed and cared for. But they WILL work.

*  Term limits for elected officials.  If we can't get the money out of Politics, then move the Politics away from the money. 

 

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I think I agree with you on all of those.  

I'm sure there would be an uproar over people having to "work" for assistance, but I can't think of a better plan other than to set limits on how long an able bodied individual can draw upon certain services.

We also need to figure out a way to get all of the social issues out of washington.  I don't want the Fed's legislating social things I disagree with on me any more than people not wanting my social issues legislated upon them.  (this ones obviously a lot more complicated, so maybe we can just stick to fiscal stuff now, lol)

2013-10-25 11:32 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it? 

Well!  That's a complex question.  Probably deserves it's own thread....but here's what a center-left leaning person would do....In no order

*  Cut Defense budget (reduce size, scope and mission parameters of each branch-particularly our investments in US troop presence abroad) Civillian contractors can re-task their efforts to Nation Building at home.

*  Improve tax code so there is a fairness for everyone.  Flat tax, sure charge, whatever?  Our fiscal mess won't go away by spending cuts alone.

*  Reinvent a Civilian Workforce program (ala New Deal)-those who need govt. assistance will work re-building the country-roads, bridges, woodlands, agriculture etc.  Everyone works in whatever capacity they can manage.  They will be paid, housed, fed and cared for. But they WILL work.

*  Term limits for elected officials.  If we can't get the money out of Politics, then move the Politics away from the money. 

 

Defense spending can certainly be cut. Tax code needs a complete overhaul. 

Civilian work force is a bad idea on so many levels it isn't funny. I do not want a guy that is to lazy to go improve himself or support himself work on a bridge. 

Term limits are lazy. We already have term limits, they are called elections. 

 

Here's the point... Lazy Americans get exactly what they work for... lazy government and a crumbling country. When the American people actually take responsibility for fixing this country and it's government, then maybe things will change.

We don't need term limits, we need voters that will limit terms. We don't need a work force for welfare, we need regulations enforced and limits set on what you will get. It isn't the government's job to take care of those that can take care of themselves. And the only reason money has taken over politics, is because Americans allowed it. We know what the problems are, yet we do nothing about them.

Hence why Americans are not in the streets... because they are too lazy to march. They keep waiting for somebody else to do it. 

2013-10-25 12:08 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it? 

Well!  That's a complex question.  Probably deserves it's own thread....but here's what a center-left leaning person would do....In no order

*  Cut Defense budget (reduce size, scope and mission parameters of each branch-particularly our investments in US troop presence abroad) Civillian contractors can re-task their efforts to Nation Building at home.

*  Improve tax code so there is a fairness for everyone.  Flat tax, sure charge, whatever?  Our fiscal mess won't go away by spending cuts alone.

*  Reinvent a Civilian Workforce program (ala New Deal)-those who need govt. assistance will work re-building the country-roads, bridges, woodlands, agriculture etc.  Everyone works in whatever capacity they can manage.  They will be paid, housed, fed and cared for. But they WILL work.

*  Term limits for elected officials.  If we can't get the money out of Politics, then move the Politics away from the money. 

 

Defense spending can certainly be cut. Tax code needs a complete overhaul. 

Civilian work force is a bad idea on so many levels it isn't funny. I do not want a guy that is to lazy to go improve himself or support himself work on a bridge. 

Term limits are lazy. We already have term limits, they are called elections. 

 

Here's the point... Lazy Americans get exactly what they work for... lazy government and a crumbling country. When the American people actually take responsibility for fixing this country and it's government, then maybe things will change.

We don't need term limits, we need voters that will limit terms. We don't need a work force for welfare, we need regulations enforced and limits set on what you will get. It isn't the government's job to take care of those that can take care of themselves. And the only reason money has taken over politics, is because Americans allowed it. We know what the problems are, yet we do nothing about them.

Hence why Americans are not in the streets... because they are too lazy to march. They keep waiting for somebody else to do it. 

Come on, PM.  Don't tell why things WON'T work.  Tell me what things WILL work.   This country needs ideas. 

Civillian Work force CAN work, because there ARE some smart, able-bodied people out there. 

And I'll double-down on Term Limits, cuz we don't get to choose what America we live in; the one we WANT, where people make smart, informed decisions about who they want in office OR the one we actually live in where money from big business flows freely into the pockets and minds of our elected 'representatives'.   If the culture changes in D.C., then re-address the issue.



2013-10-25 12:15 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
I hate to say it while I agree with powerman on his views term limits I think having term limits is the way to go. The world is not perfect and if it was we would not have in now.

I am for work programs and education programs. It is not so simple. no point educating someone with a skill they can not use. I worry about taking advantage of people in work programs. Solve both those issues and I am all aboard. This from one of those "lazy people".

One of the problems is each year we can produce more and more with fewer and fewer people. Unless we find new things to produce all the profits will sit there and not get reinvested. That is one reason I like triathlons. It helps produce experiences for people as well as promotes good health. I like producing experiences because they take no natural resources and do not end up in landfills. (ok I know its not 100% true but I think you guys get the idea.)
2013-10-25 12:25 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

I think one issue with term limits is that it's a double edged sword.  Here in Nebraska there were some old coots that had made careers in our state legislature and they just mucked up everything at every chance they got.  You'd get a very senior/powerful senator who was bought off that had way too much power.

We enacted term limits, so the old guard ended up getting booted out and a bunch of new blood came into the mix.  Some of the new blood was worse than the old, and some were very very good.  Then two terms later, all the bad, and the good get booted out and the same thing continues.  So, the issues didn't really go away they were just the same issues with different people.

So, in essence it didn't really solve anything and some genuinely very good Senators were getting whacked when most people wanted them to stay in.

That being said, I do loosely support term limits still because there are too many people that get bought off.  It makes it very easy for the lobbyists because they just keep the money flowing.  At the very least term limits forces the lobbyists to work a little harder.  lol

2013-10-25 1:24 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?
Tupuppy I completely agree with you. That is why I am torn. The thing I wonder is how many start out good but the system ends up corrupting them. I am pretty sure everyone slowly get corrupted over time. It would hard not to be at least to a degree. Worse part the person may not even notice it. That is why I am leaning to term limits but at the same time I am not sure.
2013-10-25 3:35 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

But who gets to determine the 'filters' for the fakers and deadbeats.  How much of their individual freedoms must we intrude upon to determine who REALLY needs govt. assistance.  And we can't assume there are 'no risk', 100% absolute, groups who are entitled to these assistance programs.  I work for Dept of Veterans Affairs and I can tell you with CERTAINTY; there are a large (disturbingly large, actually) number of military veterans who are abusing the many VA benefits programs.  What brave/foolish politician is gonna stand up with a microphone in their face and say "I'm going to reduce VA benefits in the interest of our nations economic health."? 

So then let me ask you..... what is your solution? Continue giving out money until we go bankrupt and the global economy collapses? 

If we had the money, then sure, fine... cake for everyone. But when we don't have it, and we haven't had it... to continue on this course is to continue on a course to ruin. When do we stop it? 

Well!  That's a complex question.  Probably deserves it's own thread....but here's what a center-left leaning person would do....In no order

*  Cut Defense budget (reduce size, scope and mission parameters of each branch-particularly our investments in US troop presence abroad) Civillian contractors can re-task their efforts to Nation Building at home.

*  Improve tax code so there is a fairness for everyone.  Flat tax, sure charge, whatever?  Our fiscal mess won't go away by spending cuts alone.

*  Reinvent a Civilian Workforce program (ala New Deal)-those who need govt. assistance will work re-building the country-roads, bridges, woodlands, agriculture etc.  Everyone works in whatever capacity they can manage.  They will be paid, housed, fed and cared for. But they WILL work.

*  Term limits for elected officials.  If we can't get the money out of Politics, then move the Politics away from the money. 

 

Defense spending can certainly be cut. Tax code needs a complete overhaul. 

Civilian work force is a bad idea on so many levels it isn't funny. I do not want a guy that is to lazy to go improve himself or support himself work on a bridge. 

Term limits are lazy. We already have term limits, they are called elections. 

 

Here's the point... Lazy Americans get exactly what they work for... lazy government and a crumbling country. When the American people actually take responsibility for fixing this country and it's government, then maybe things will change.

We don't need term limits, we need voters that will limit terms. We don't need a work force for welfare, we need regulations enforced and limits set on what you will get. It isn't the government's job to take care of those that can take care of themselves. And the only reason money has taken over politics, is because Americans allowed it. We know what the problems are, yet we do nothing about them.

Hence why Americans are not in the streets... because they are too lazy to march. They keep waiting for somebody else to do it. 

Come on, PM.  Don't tell why things WON'T work.  Tell me what things WILL work.   This country needs ideas. 

Civillian Work force CAN work, because there ARE some smart, able-bodied people out there. 

And I'll double-down on Term Limits, cuz we don't get to choose what America we live in; the one we WANT, where people make smart, informed decisions about who they want in office OR the one we actually live in where money from big business flows freely into the pockets and minds of our elected 'representatives'.   If the culture changes in D.C., then re-address the issue.

Tell me one problem term limits solves that elections don't. Seriously. I know you think you get the bums out... so what... more bums after them. If Americans are too lazy to kick them out, and elect those that will clean things up, then what exactly is a revolving door of the same going to do for us?

I did give you solutions.... radically cut defense spending. We no longer need a global military force. Overhaul the tax code... literally throw it out, and empliment new. Fair tax or flat, I don't care. Consumption tax, but it should no longer be tied to income. Sales tax, with repeal of income tax charges all Americans to pay for America.... even illegal ones.

If you have no idea what you are doing... stop voting. If you do vote, stop voting for Rs and Ds... they are the problem. Either vote for another party, or vote one and done, or limit terms. Do some actual work instead of color the dots. Or next "Convention"... bring pitchforks... maybe that will get their attention.

Cut entitlements... PERIOD. ENSURE those that need it are getting it, and those that don't are not. If more people are needed to do that, then you can hire those folks. We don't need slave labor. We don't need needless work being performed so somebody can say they are "working". We don't need millions of Americans "employed" by the government holding up shovels. We actually need real people using shovels to build this country. Ones that actually help pay for it. 

Scavengers are free to scavenge. If you are able bodied, and you can't find work by the time unemployment benefits run out... you are on your own. If you have 5 kids on welfare you can't pay for... then perhaps you need to not be a parent... Since they are fine with the state paying for them, then the state can take them. But you do not get a bigger check for every one you pop out. Sorry... something has to change, or we will be left with none of us being able to feed our kids. 

Pass a balanced budget amendment. Pass a reasonable debt limit amendment.

2013-10-25 4:35 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

^^^Agreed^^^

Tell me one problem term limits solves that elections don't. Seriously. I know you think you get the bums out... so what... more bums after them. If Americans are too lazy to kick them out, and elect those that will clean things up, then what exactly is a revolving door of the same going to do for us?

I did give you solutions.... radically cut defense spending. We no longer need a global military force. Overhaul the tax code... literally throw it out, and empliment new. Fair tax or flat, I don't care. Consumption tax, but it should no longer be tied to income. Sales tax, with repeal of income tax charges all Americans to pay for America.... even illegal ones.

If you have no idea what you are doing... stop voting. If you do vote, stop voting for Rs and Ds... they are the problem. Either vote for another party, or vote one and done, or limit terms. Do some actual work instead of color the dots. Or next "Convention"... bring pitchforks... maybe that will get their attention.

Cut entitlements... PERIOD. ENSURE those that need it are getting it, and those that don't are not. If more people are needed to do that, then you can hire those folks. We don't need slave labor. We don't need needless work being performed so somebody can say they are "working". We don't need millions of Americans "employed" by the government holding up shovels. We actually need real people using shovels to build this country. Ones that actually help pay for it. 

Scavengers are free to scavenge. If you are able bodied, and you can't find work by the time unemployment benefits run out... you are on your own. If you have 5 kids on welfare you can't pay for... then perhaps you need to not be a parent... Since they are fine with the state paying for them, then the state can take them. But you do not get a bigger check for every one you pop out. Sorry... something has to change, or we will be left with none of us being able to feed our kids. 

Pass a balanced budget amendment. Pass a reasonable debt limit amendment.

I agree with many...MANY of those ideas (and, frankly, that scares me a bit). 

I think there is PLENTY of low/no skilled work that could be performed to improve the infrastructure of this country.  Wildlife management and agriculture harvesting to name just a few.  You wanna consider Immigration Reform?  Take away the employment opportunities that drives hundreds of thousands across our borders illegally.  And if even just a small percentage learn a skill or trade-all the better.   Change the culture and the mindset. The effects will multiply. Our social welfare problems are decades in the making and will take equally as long to fully reform.

I even agree that term limits 'should' be a function of the electorate, but MONEY changes the playing field for incumbents, districts are jerrymandered (sp), and appropriations flow to politicians who most 'please' the corporations.  Term limits will remove the influence big-money has over our current crop of politicians.  Industry giants won't invest so much $$ in Sen. Joe Schmo, if they know their useful time with that Senator is limited.  So-remove the money that influences politics or remove the politics/politicians from the money.  

However, there will always be people who want/need assistance. Safety net programs i.e. Planned Parenthood, Headstart, WIC, Medicare/Medicade etc. must continue to be funded at 'appropriate' levels.  Don't aim to reduce the costs of these programs, aim to reduce the PARTICIPATION.  We are, after all, a (mostly) moral country whose founding was based on a premise "Give me your tired, your hungry, your poor....". 



2013-10-25 5:32 PM
in reply to: jeffnboise

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

 

I agree with many...MANY of those ideas (and, frankly, that scares me a bit). 

I think there is PLENTY of low/no skilled work that could be performed to improve the infrastructure of this country.  Wildlife management and agriculture harvesting to name just a few.  You wanna consider Immigration Reform?  Take away the employment opportunities that drives hundreds of thousands across our borders illegally.  And if even just a small percentage learn a skill or trade-all the better.   Change the culture and the mindset. The effects will multiply. Our social welfare problems are decades in the making and will take equally as long to fully reform.

I even agree that term limits 'should' be a function of the electorate, but MONEY changes the playing field for incumbents, districts are jerrymandered (sp), and appropriations flow to politicians who most 'please' the corporations.  Term limits will remove the influence big-money has over our current crop of politicians.  Industry giants won't invest so much $$ in Sen. Joe Schmo, if they know their useful time with that Senator is limited.  So-remove the money that influences politics or remove the politics/politicians from the money.  

However, there will always be people who want/need assistance. Safety net programs i.e. Planned Parenthood, Headstart, WIC, Medicare/Medicade etc. must continue to be funded at 'appropriate' levels.  Don't aim to reduce the costs of these programs, aim to reduce the PARTICIPATION.  We are, after all, a (mostly) moral country whose founding was based on a premise "Give me your tired, your hungry, your poor....". 

You are not getting it.... Senator Dingleberry isn't the problem, his party is. Money does not care about the Senator, money cares about how many seats the party has... the name is completely irrelavent... because the only way Mr. Dingleberry gets elected is if the party backs him. You leave the party enmass, you leave Money with no seats. Term limits does not solve that problem, term limits only changes the name on the door. 

I most certainly agree that a country as rich as ours can have social safety nets. And it certainly will be expensive and it needs to be funded... and the fund can't be pillaged. But you can't just leave them open ended. You can't just have programs that hand out money to anyone that walks up to a window. Safe guarding that money is actually safeguarding the person that actually needs it. We MUST ensure money is there for those that are truly in need. That means we need far more oversight and restrictions than we have now. 

As for the parties... the disfunction is reaching a boiling point. I WISH we could go back to the good old days of "just" gridlock. Nothing was happening quick, as in more damage being done.... but the partisanship on both sides is ridiculous. We do not need a armed revolt, or even a political revolt.... we need a voter revolt. We are the solutions to our problems.

Look Jeff... I am going to go out on a limb here and say you probably support more government control than I do. But we both agree in spirit on many thing. When we have our house in order... finances, immigration, safety nets, national defense and our military role in the world... it all needs to be cut for us to have a sustainable economic future.... when all that gets done, then we can start to nit pick just who needs more and what we should spend money on and what role government plays in all that.... but right now, WE need to get things under control. Why can't all the fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and social safety net folks get together and revolt against the current system at the ballot box? Leave the Rs and Ds in droves. It will cause a lot of pain to cut off the flow of gravy, but why continue to do the same thing and expect different results. I have been independent all my life, and this year I registered Libertarian. I don't care if you join the Green party.... but do something different. Because I can agree to a lot of what you support, I just can't agree to the level it's at. And there are no sacred cows, it all needs to be cut..... we are heading in a dangerous direction of a welfare state and shrinking economy. Our future is not bright. Yes we are still a juggernaut, but so was Rome and England.

2013-10-28 12:24 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Why aren't the people in America in the streets?

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jeffnboise

 

I agree with many...MANY of those ideas (and, frankly, that scares me a bit). 

I think there is PLENTY of low/no skilled work that could be performed to improve the infrastructure of this country.  Wildlife management and agriculture harvesting to name just a few.  You wanna consider Immigration Reform?  Take away the employment opportunities that drives hundreds of thousands across our borders illegally.  And if even just a small percentage learn a skill or trade-all the better.   Change the culture and the mindset. The effects will multiply. Our social welfare problems are decades in the making and will take equally as long to fully reform.

I even agree that term limits 'should' be a function of the electorate, but MONEY changes the playing field for incumbents, districts are jerrymandered (sp), and appropriations flow to politicians who most 'please' the corporations.  Term limits will remove the influence big-money has over our current crop of politicians.  Industry giants won't invest so much $$ in Sen. Joe Schmo, if they know their useful time with that Senator is limited.  So-remove the money that influences politics or remove the politics/politicians from the money.  

However, there will always be people who want/need assistance. Safety net programs i.e. Planned Parenthood, Headstart, WIC, Medicare/Medicade etc. must continue to be funded at 'appropriate' levels.  Don't aim to reduce the costs of these programs, aim to reduce the PARTICIPATION.  We are, after all, a (mostly) moral country whose founding was based on a premise "Give me your tired, your hungry, your poor....". 

You are not getting it.... Senator Dingleberry isn't the problem, his party is. Money does not care about the Senator, money cares about how many seats the party has... the name is completely irrelavent... because the only way Mr. Dingleberry gets elected is if the party backs him. You leave the party enmass, you leave Money with no seats. Term limits does not solve that problem, term limits only changes the name on the door. 

I most certainly agree that a country as rich as ours can have social safety nets. And it certainly will be expensive and it needs to be funded... and the fund can't be pillaged. But you can't just leave them open ended. You can't just have programs that hand out money to anyone that walks up to a window. Safe guarding that money is actually safeguarding the person that actually needs it. We MUST ensure money is there for those that are truly in need. That means we need far more oversight and restrictions than we have now. 

As for the parties... the disfunction is reaching a boiling point. I WISH we could go back to the good old days of "just" gridlock. Nothing was happening quick, as in more damage being done.... but the partisanship on both sides is ridiculous. We do not need a armed revolt, or even a political revolt.... we need a voter revolt. We are the solutions to our problems.

Look Jeff... I am going to go out on a limb here and say you probably support more government control than I do. But we both agree in spirit on many thing. When we have our house in order... finances, immigration, safety nets, national defense and our military role in the world... it all needs to be cut for us to have a sustainable economic future.... when all that gets done, then we can start to nit pick just who needs more and what we should spend money on and what role government plays in all that.... but right now, WE need to get things under control. Why can't all the fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and social safety net folks get together and revolt against the current system at the ballot box? Leave the Rs and Ds in droves. It will cause a lot of pain to cut off the flow of gravy, but why continue to do the same thing and expect different results. I have been independent all my life, and this year I registered Libertarian. I don't care if you join the Green party.... but do something different. Because I can agree to a lot of what you support, I just can't agree to the level it's at. And there are no sacred cows, it all needs to be cut..... we are heading in a dangerous direction of a welfare state and shrinking economy. Our future is not bright. Yes we are still a juggernaut, but so was Rome and England.

We shall agree to disagree on Term Limits. 

But, again, I'm with you on most of your comments.  My issue is...how many election cycles will our team LOSE before our 'rebellion' starts to take root.  I'm guessing 6-10 yrs.  There is alot of damage that be done is that amount of time.  Voting districts gerrymandered, voter restrictions etc. etc. It's too hard to stop the pendelum mid-swing-best to slowly limit it's range of movement L to R. 

But I, as always, appreciate the conversation and i respect your opinions

 

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