The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

66

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Not trying to make you believe anything, this is a highly subjective topic and difficult to get good data on, make good analisis and draw solid conclusions. Maybe I did not make it clear enough, but the data I provided, analaysis done and conclusions drawn are not solid. Are they useless? Maybe, maybe not.

I have my subjective opinion on what is required to KQ. What I guess is a hard fact - but also kinda obvious - is that as the sport matures KQers will become more and more elitist. I know it is not Kona but I have a friend who qualified for 70,3 WC 4-5 years ago and I think he did a 5:30 on an average course. That is not very elitist! How much elite genetics is required as of 2013? My opinion is some genetics are required in one of the sports but not elite genetics in any or all the 3 sports. I believe it is 70% hard work and 30% genetics. You might believe something else which is awesome

489

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by andreasjs Agree that 15 hours per week is not THAT hard but it is a pretty decent amount of volume to fit into most people´s life. Especially, when it is not 15 HPW once in a while but on average week in and week out for several years. Let us say it is a 4h bike, 2h run and 1h swim on the weekends. That leaves 8 hours for M-F. Assume a recovery day or very light day, then we are speaking close to 2 hours on a regular day. That is probably one workout in the morning and one in the evening. Assume 21 hours for mandatory stuff like work, commuting, cooking, showering etc - then once you have done your training you have at best 1 hour left to do other non-try stuff. That means that most of the non-weekend days you are living and breathing triathlon day in and day out - and if someone would ask you what you were doing in the weekend, the first thing that comes to your mind is probably "training" although it was "only" 7 hours.

LOL.....thanks.....I know what a 15-20 hour week looks like for training. What we are down to is that you basically need to AG podium at an IM event in order to KQ. You want me to believe that's not left for the most elite among us? And you want me to believe that the most elite among us don't have some great genetic gifts? I'm not going there.

Not in my age group. 7 places at the last IM I did (Copenhagen) and Kona rolled down to 10.

We can't even agree on a baseline of what we're deciding is or is not attainable for KQ... I reckon that if I was in shape to deliver a 9:40 time on the same course I did in August then I'd KQ (the conditions on the day could alter what that time turns out to be by +/-30mins but that doesn't matter.

There's a ton of analysis on this site and it reckons that closer to 10 hours is enough.

http://www.coachcox.co.uk/ironman-training-by-numbers/

Plenty of qualifiers haven't podiumed due to their being either more than five slots on offer or the roll down. I think top 10 is a more realistic target to aim to expect KQ.

1053

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

That was the point I was trying to make . I agree with LB that genetics is a huge factor, but how fast some 15 year old kid is doesn't have anything to do with a 45-49 age grouper getting a KQ. Unless you are trying to get an OA, how fast these young kids are have nothing to do with it. We know they are fast, that point has been made many times over and over.

How fast they are is less important than the fact that they are there. The sport is growing. I only started last year, and I'm 36, how many other potentially fast 36 year olds are starting this year that I will have to compete with?

Here is a figure from USA Triathlon "...the number of races sanctioned through USA Triathlon continues to climb. Those numbers (which include camps and clinics) have nearly tripled over the last seven years, going from 1,541 in 2004 to 4,310 in 2012" So the point about staying "on the pointy end" is a very good point indeed.

Take the very competitive AGers. There are certainly some outliers, but I am sure that they all work pretty hard to be where they are. Most train smart, and most put in the time.

Good genetics are an edge, and one that you can't modify, just one that you can reach the potential of. Simple logic dictates that with more and more competitors there will be those who work as hard as you, who put in just as much time, and those who WANT it just as much as you.

So what gives you that edge to win (PEDs excluded), the answer is simple. Genetics. Slow twitch muscle fibers, mitochondria, body type, where your ligaments and tendons line up on your skeleton, and countless other physiological adaptations that are positively affected by good genetics are going to give that edge.

That said, taking the current state of the sport, and it is really just an opinion, but I believe that most competitors, if they max out every modifiable factor (training time, training effort, diet, technique, coaching, equipment...etc...) it is not out of reach...yet.

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631	Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ? For those that like charts and graphs. Here are a bunch that shows Q times and the number of qualifiers for each race. http://www.runtri.com/2010/07/ironman-kona-qualifying-times-compari...

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by ImSore

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

That was the point I was trying to make . I agree with LB that genetics is a huge factor, but how fast some 15 year old kid is doesn't have anything to do with a 45-49 age grouper getting a KQ. Unless you are trying to get an OA, how fast these young kids are have nothing to do with it. We know they are fast, that point has been made many times over and over.

How fast they are is less important than the fact that they are there. The sport is growing. I only started last year, and I'm 36, how many other potentially fast 36 year olds are starting this year that I will have to compete with?

Here is a figure from USA Triathlon "...the number of races sanctioned through USA Triathlon continues to climb. Those numbers (which include camps and clinics) have nearly tripled over the last seven years, going from 1,541 in 2004 to 4,310 in 2012" So the point about staying "on the pointy end" is a very good point indeed.

Take the very competitive AGers. There are certainly some outliers, but I am sure that they all work pretty hard to be where they are. Most train smart, and most put in the time.

Good genetics are an edge, and one that you can't modify, just one that you can reach the potential of. Simple logic dictates that with more and more competitors there will be those who work as hard as you, who put in just as much time, and those who WANT it just as much as you.

So what gives you that edge to win (PEDs excluded), the answer is simple. Genetics. Slow twitch muscle fibers, mitochondria, body type, where your ligaments and tendons line up on your skeleton, and countless other physiological adaptations that are positively affected by good genetics are going to give that edge.

That said, taking the current state of the sport, and it is really just an opinion, but I believe that most competitors, if they max out every modifiable factor (training time, training effort, diet, technique, coaching, equipment...etc...) it is not out of reach...yet.

I agree more people are coming into the sport, that is a fact. What I was pointing out is that LB keeps talking about all of these super fast 15-18 year old kids. Those kids don't have now, nor will they in the future, any baring on a 30+ year old getting a KQ. They are not competing against each other. Now if you are saying that a bunch of super fast adults are coming into the sport that is a different thing. They obviously are competing for those same KQ spots. That is all I was pointing out.

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by ImSore

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

That was the point I was trying to make . I agree with LB that genetics is a huge factor, but how fast some 15 year old kid is doesn't have anything to do with a 45-49 age grouper getting a KQ. Unless you are trying to get an OA, how fast these young kids are have nothing to do with it. We know they are fast, that point has been made many times over and over.

How fast they are is less important than the fact that they are there. The sport is growing. I only started last year, and I'm 36, how many other potentially fast 36 year olds are starting this year that I will have to compete with?

Here is a figure from USA Triathlon "...the number of races sanctioned through USA Triathlon continues to climb. Those numbers (which include camps and clinics) have nearly tripled over the last seven years, going from 1,541 in 2004 to 4,310 in 2012" So the point about staying "on the pointy end" is a very good point indeed.

Take the very competitive AGers. There are certainly some outliers, but I am sure that they all work pretty hard to be where they are. Most train smart, and most put in the time.

Good genetics are an edge, and one that you can't modify, just one that you can reach the potential of. Simple logic dictates that with more and more competitors there will be those who work as hard as you, who put in just as much time, and those who WANT it just as much as you.

So what gives you that edge to win (PEDs excluded), the answer is simple. Genetics. Slow twitch muscle fibers, mitochondria, body type, where your ligaments and tendons line up on your skeleton, and countless other physiological adaptations that are positively affected by good genetics are going to give that edge.

That said, taking the current state of the sport, and it is really just an opinion, but I believe that most competitors, if they max out every modifiable factor (training time, training effort, diet, technique, coaching, equipment...etc...) it is not out of reach...yet.

I agree more people are coming into the sport, that is a fact. What I was pointing out is that LB keeps talking about all of these super fast 15-18 year old kids. Those kids don't have now, nor will they in the future, any baring on a 30+ year old getting a KQ. They are not competing against each other. Now if you are saying that a bunch of super fast adults are coming into the sport that is a different thing. They obviously are competing for those same KQ spots. That is all I was pointing out.

About 90% of those super fast 15-18 yr olds will be done before they 25. Beer, money, and women usually take care of that.

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Sidney Porter For those that like charts and graphs. Here are a bunch that shows Q times and the number of qualifiers for each race. http://www.runtri.com/2010/07/ironman-kona-qualifying-times-compari...

Damn 40 year old males. SLOW DOWN!

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Levittown, PA

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by gsmacleod
There is someone who has a signature here that says something along the lines of my floor is someone else's ceiling.

Shane

Its funny how you read something and never fully grasp it. I was taking that person's quote literally. I read it before and was just like Hmmmmmmm, thats pretty random, but OK.

I guess in my case it would be the other way around. I'm sure my ceiling is plenty of people's floors, maybe even there basement

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489

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by AZ_Tri

Originally posted by Sidney Porter For those that like charts and graphs. Here are a bunch that shows Q times and the number of qualifiers for each race. http://www.runtri.com/2010/07/ironman-kona-qualifying-times-compari...

Damn 40 year old males. SLOW DOWN!

That's incomplete data. Loads of IM races missing from there.

And the level of participation might be increasing but that doesn't mean the standard is going to improve at the same rate.

1660

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by andreasjs

Not trying to make you believe anything, this is a highly subjective topic and difficult to get good data on, make good analisis and draw solid conclusions. Maybe I did not make it clear enough, but the data I provided, analaysis done and conclusions drawn are not solid. Are they useless? Maybe, maybe not.

I have my subjective opinion on what is required to KQ. What I guess is a hard fact - but also kinda obvious - is that as the sport matures KQers will become more and more elitist. I know it is not Kona but I have a friend who qualified for 70,3 WC 4-5 years ago and I think he did a 5:30 on an average course. That is not very elitist! How much elite genetics is required as of 2013? My opinion is some genetics are required in one of the sports but not elite genetics in any or all the 3 sports. I believe it is 70% hard work and 30% genetics. You might believe something else which is awesome

5:30 HIM vs KQ are worlds apart.

A 5:30HIM barely even puts you at FOMOP in a regional race. You'll be like in the upper 30-40% of M30-40.

KQ is top 3%.

That's not just worlds apart, actually, that's like three worlds apart. Again, proof of more evidence that people who aren't on the cusp of KQ'ing often greatly underestimate just how hard it is to get there, often by assuming that progress made at the MOP or even FOP level will continue when you're at the FFFOP (KQ zone). Unfortunately, unless you're lucky, that's rarely the case.

Edited by yazmaster 2013-10-16 12:26 PM

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by ImSore

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

That was the point I was trying to make . I agree with LB that genetics is a huge factor, but how fast some 15 year old kid is doesn't have anything to do with a 45-49 age grouper getting a KQ. Unless you are trying to get an OA, how fast these young kids are have nothing to do with it. We know they are fast, that point has been made many times over and over.

How fast they are is less important than the fact that they are there. The sport is growing. I only started last year, and I'm 36, how many other potentially fast 36 year olds are starting this year that I will have to compete with? Here is a figure from USA Triathlon "...the number of races sanctioned through USA Triathlon continues to climb. Those numbers (which include camps and clinics) have nearly tripled over the last seven years, going from 1,541 in 2004 to 4,310 in 2012" So the point about staying "on the pointy end" is a very good point indeed. Take the very competitive AGers. There are certainly some outliers, but I am sure that they all work pretty hard to be where they are. Most train smart, and most put in the time. Good genetics are an edge, and one that you can't modify, just one that you can reach the potential of. Simple logic dictates that with more and more competitors there will be those who work as hard as you, who put in just as much time, and those who WANT it just as much as you. So what gives you that edge to win (PEDs excluded), the answer is simple. Genetics. Slow twitch muscle fibers, mitochondria, body type, where your ligaments and tendons line up on your skeleton, and countless other physiological adaptations that are positively affected by good genetics are going to give that edge. That said, taking the current state of the sport, and it is really just an opinion, but I believe that most competitors, if they max out every modifiable factor (training time, training effort, diet, technique, coaching, equipment...etc...) it is not out of reach...yet.

I agree more people are coming into the sport, that is a fact. What I was pointing out is that LB keeps talking about all of these super fast 15-18 year old kids. Those kids don't have now, nor will they in the future, any baring on a 30+ year old getting a KQ. They are not competing against each other. Now if you are saying that a bunch of super fast adults are coming into the sport that is a different thing. They obviously are competing for those same KQ spots. That is all I was pointing out.

It's not just 15-18 year odl kids coming into the sport....they just happen to be the people I spend alot of time around. My son's biggest local foil is a 28 year old kid who came to the sport just last year. He was an All-American 5K runner at college......crazy fast kid...and learning to swim pretty well. Those stories are happening all over the country, and at every AG level. Watch what happens to women's triathlon in the next 10 years if triathlon becomes a championship NCAA sport for them....and it will. There aren't enough swimming scholarships to go around.....but triathlon coaches will raid the swimming ranks for girls who already swim faster than most of the elites in women's triathlon and will now have an avenue to continue to pursue a sport in college. A 45 year old won a long running sprint here last summer.......no idea where he came from.....:59:25. He said it was his 4th triathlon. Those college kids that make up all of those teeams.....some of them crazy fast kids....they'll be in their 30's in 10 years, with a ton of experience. The gentics argument aside.....if you want to KQ you better get it done now....it gets harder from here on out at every level.

Edited by Left Brain 2013-10-16 12:17 PM

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Would it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Leegoocrap Would it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

Sure.....I'll go run in Hawaii, hard or easy.

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

631

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Watch what happens to women's triathlon in the next 10 years if triathlon becomes a championship NCAA sport for them....and it will.

It is already on the table. Up for votes next year.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+Ne...

Edit:
FAQ
http://www.usatriathlon.org/news/articles/2013/2/021913-collegiate-...

Edited by Sidney Porter 2013-10-16 12:51 PM

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

be grateful you are out of striking distance

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Champion

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Knoxville area

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

be grateful you are out of striking distance

I had to Knit once for a school project... does that make me a knitter?

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5477

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

be grateful you are out of striking distance

I had to Knit once for a school project... does that make me a knitter?

dude, on second thought, give LB your number.

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

be grateful you are out of striking distance

I had to Knit once for a school project... does that make me a knitter?

dude, on second thought, give LB your number.

HAHAHAHA!

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

Run fast!!!

Heck. I could try to slow down as much as I want. They still aren't catching me!

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Exton, PA

Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by LeegoocrapWould it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

No. Leego, walk away from this one. You're arguing with a wall. Just be grateful LB doesn't have your phone number

Don't you have some knitting to do or something?

be grateful you are out of striking distance

I had to Knit once for a school project... does that make me a knitter?

Were you in the top 3% of the knitters at that school? you must be genetically gifted!

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Would it be worth going if it wasn't hard?

I went as a lottery guy. It was worth it. Believe me, it was so worth it.

However, if I ever go back it will be as a qualifier. I figure you should only go through the lottery once and then let someone else be lucky enough to experience it.

But, I know that isn't what you really meant.

ETA. Getting the lottery slot wasn't hard, just lucky. Training for and competing in my first IM in Hawaii; that was hard, and nerve wracking, and again, oh so worth it :)

Edited by wannabefaster 2013-10-16 1:11 PM

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

Run fast!!!

Heck. I could try to slow down as much as I want. They still aren't catching me!

I gave up trying to make that point. Maybe you will have better luck!

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Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by TriBoilermaker

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

My other point is that he's not nearly alone. These folks are just now finding triathlon......the growth of really fast and gifted people into the sport is tremendous. It's going to be very hard to stay close to that pointy end as time goes on. In fact, it will become impossible for most of us.

I'm an AGer. They are never catching me.

Run fast!!!

Heck. I could try to slow down as much as I want. They still aren't catching me!

I gave up trying to make that point. Maybe you will have better luck!

Neither of your age groups are immune....not by a long shot.

The kona goal ? Out of reach ? (Page 9)

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