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2013-10-18 12:54 PM

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Subject: when do I get faster?
I have been in the triathlon game for a couple of years completing everything from a few sprints all the way up to IMLOU this past August. My split times are always FOP for the swim, FMOP for the bike, and BOP on the run for my age group.

I have read all of the information on slow (Z2) running and I understand the idea of running a lot, mostly slow and sometimes fast. My LR pace right now is between a 9 and 9:30 min/mile pace. My marathons usually come out a little over a 4hr race and I did a HM last year in 1:42.

My frustration is that my LR pace has been a 9 min/mile pace since I started triathlons 2 years ago. At what point should I push my LR pace a little faster or will it just naturally "happen" one day when I am not expecting it? I know my body is capable of pushing harder than this pace as evidenced by the HIM I did last year but race day was truely the first time I had pushed an effort that hard for longer than a workout of tempo miles. My HR was obviously a lot higher than a typical LR day but I was able to hold it all together for 13.1. Will my LR pace ever just change or am I going to eventually have to make myself change that pace?

Edited by clemson05 2013-10-18 12:57 PM


2013-10-18 1:01 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Given your HM time, your long runs seem on the slow side of "normal".  But how much do you run?  How often?  How long is your long run relative to the rest of your running?  How much harder running do you do?  How do you arrive at the 9-9:30 pace today? 

2013-10-18 1:04 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Just spitballing...  Do you recheck your LT?  You should do the test a couple times a year.  Your zones may have changed a little, or they could have been a little off in the first place.

2013-10-18 2:57 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
A reply to both questions above. My max HR test when running came to a 194. I did it again about 8 months later on the bike and hit 192. Both of these tests were over a year ago so I guess I probably should do it again but these results were very close to the standard 220-age as well. This leaves my zone 3 starting around 150 bpm. Generally I run 2-3 days per week with biking and swimming mixed in on the other days. My long runs are Sunday and are generally 12-16 miles. They have been shorter after the IM but I am just now starting to get back to a normal workout routine. My midweek runs are usually an hour and they consist of tempo, speed work, fartleks, etc.

I arrive at the 9' pace on the LR because that is where my HR shows I should be. This pace has my HR around 145-150 bpm. I am sure some of the answer is I need to run more and I get that but I guess I am wondering if at some point I need to run my LR at an 8:30-8:45 pace and see what my body does. Otherwise I always settle into the same exact pace on the LR and I feel like my body is almost conditioned to run that pace with that many bpm.
2013-10-18 3:38 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Generally I run 2-3 days per week

Your PRs and pace aren't bad for running this infrequently.

But if you start running 4 - 5 times per week, I'll bet you'd see marked improvements.
2013-10-18 3:41 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

I'd recommend to do the field LT test per this article (http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=633) and use the BT LT HR zone calculator to see how the zones line up.  IMHO you need to reset your RPE/pace based on something better than max HR derived zone references.  Not sure how you determined your max HR for running but FWIW I've "maxed" out at 189 in a 5k and have an LT of 176 which puts my LT based Z2 at 150-160.

 

 

 



2013-10-18 4:02 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

I can really relate to this question.  Like you I choose to do a lot of LHR running (Maffetone approach).  My max HR is 193, so very similar, so that gave me a LSD HR target of 143 a few years ago, and I've stuck with that..  I recently did a threshold test that puts my z2 top end at 150, so can push it harder if I want now but have used the 143 as a benchmark.  I started out doing this for marathons and it took me quite a few months to see the pace start to creep up at the target HR, but it did.  Slowly. 

My experience:  What I didn't realize was that my aerobic capacity had developed deeper than was demonstrated by these runs.  Again like you, my marathon times were around the 4 hour mark and based on my training I set my marathon paces at or near that.  Then, during the Eugene marathon I had a buddy I was going to be running with and we were going to shoot for a 3:50.  He got in GI trouble early on so our pace was not on target.  At about mile 8 or 10 he told me to go on without him as he could see it was going to be a bad day for him, so I mentally calculated (what I thought it would take) to get me in at about a 3:50 and started running to that.  I found that I could maintain that fairly easily so pushed a little harder.  Ended up running a 7 minute negative split on the back half of the course and ended up with a 3:42 and an average pace of 8:29 at an average HR of 155.

The takeaway for me using LHR as a training tool is that it can make you better than the training results demonstrate, because of the constraints you put on yourself using LHR.  It looks like you have demonstrated a similar deeper aerobic capacity with your HM of 1:42.  Using the MacMillan calculator, that time puts you capable of a Marathon time of 3:34 - so I think you are better than you realize.  Your last question of long run pace is a good one, and I think I was guilty of talking myself into the same thing - letting the LHR target dominate.  I did start doing some runs at a target HR of 153 and found I could get down to an 8:30 or so for distances of 10 miles or so, and started doing those runs about once every 2 weeks to give myself some confidence.  Over a few months the I saw my overall pace improve from the 9:00ish I'd be stuck at down to an 8:30 overall - at the target 143.   Sounds like it may be time for you to mix it up a bit pace-wise to see if that can break the cycle you are experiencing. 

 

2013-10-18 4:34 PM
in reply to: Bunsbert Montcroff

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by Bunsbert Montcroff
Generally I run 2-3 days per week
Your PRs and pace aren't bad for running this infrequently. But if you start running 4 - 5 times per week, I'll bet you'd see marked improvements.
x2. Running easy by itself does not make you faster. It allows you to run more. That's what makes you faster.
2013-10-18 4:48 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

I'm very skeptical of using Max HR to set zones.  Generally, people don't accurately determine it (it's VERY hard to get to your max in any kind of test), so you estimate it, and it's typically too low.  If that's the case, you may have been running in Z1 (based on if you determined your LT and set your zones with that).  Z1 running is not bad, but not as effective as Z2.  Also the reason you could maintain a higher HR comfortably (zones too low).

I did the Maffatone method for a while and the 180 - age (plus/minus adjustments) to set your AT/AeT threshold also seemed to be a little low for me.  In fact, if I had to do my training now using that, my max HR to stay aerobic would be 135.  That's REALLY low and just the easiest jog.  My Z2 based on LT for running is 153-163 and I can keep that going all day but it never feels "easy", just a comfortable effort.

2013-10-18 5:50 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
So it looks like your HR zones are screwed up for starters. Read up on how to set those. My LT HR is 175 on the run and top of zone 2 is around 159, top of zone 3 is 165, top of zone 4 is 172 ish. My LT HR is much much lower than yours, so your z2 should probably top out around 165 not 145. So aside from the actual numbers you are not running enough miles, it does not sounld like you are doing any hill work or speed work and are running most of your runs in Z1. First step would be to get your weekly miles up to 40 per week. Then after a month or two at that level, add in half mile repeats and hill repeats as well as a tempo run each week. Given your other abilities your run should come along well within the next 6 months once you get in the proper training. For IMLT my run topped out at 195 ish miles for my big build month. So if you are running 45 to 50 miles a week with 1 day of speedwork, 1 day of tempo one day long and 2 days easy you should see some nice gains.
2013-10-18 6:43 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by clemson05

I have been in the triathlon game for a couple of years completing everything from a few sprints all the way up to IMLOU this past August. My split times are always FOP for the swim, FMOP for the bike, and BOP on the run for my age group.

I have read all of the information on slow (Z2) running and I understand the idea of running a lot, mostly slow and sometimes fast. My LR pace right now is between a 9 and 9:30 min/mile pace. My marathons usually come out a little over a 4hr race and I did a HM last year in 1:42.

My frustration is that my LR pace has been a 9 min/mile pace since I started triathlons 2 years ago. At what point should I push my LR pace a little faster or will it just naturally "happen" one day when I am not expecting it? I know my body is capable of pushing harder than this pace as evidenced by the HIM I did last year but race day was truely the first time I had pushed an effort that hard for longer than a workout of tempo miles. My HR was obviously a lot higher than a typical LR day but I was able to hold it all together for 13.1. Will my LR pace ever just change or am I going to eventually have to make myself change that pace?


Do BarryP's program for at least 3 months this winter. Your running will improve or your money back. 6x per week. If it means cutting in your swim or bike, do it. Dec, Jan, Feb and March. April you will be faster.


2013-10-18 8:56 PM
in reply to: clemson05


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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
A 1:42 standalone HM will definitely NOT put you in BOMOP for your AG.

If you're constantly falling into that range on the run of a triathlon, you need to up your bike training and decrease your bike effort on the bike leg. If you have the ability to run a 1:42 standalone HM, you should minimally be MOP on the run leg (and like closer to FOMOP) in whatever triathlon you do .
2013-10-19 1:42 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
My answer might be a bit unconventional, but so far it has worked for me. I'm a FOP swimmer and runner, and a BOP biker. I've always felt I make the best process in any one of the sports when I try to push harder during training. Going faster just doesn't happen by itself. IMHO you will just feel that you can push yourself a bit harder. Swimming 1:30/100m instead of 1:40/100m doesn't just happen, you know you went faster before looking at the clock, and you sure felt the increased effort while swimming.

I guess I don't run as much as most other triathletes run, and I don't do Z2 running. My pacing is usually about race pace for double the distance. So at a 10k run I'd run at about HM pace, 20k run I run at marathon pace. Haven't done an IM, but this has worked very well for HIM and shorter races. During my two years in the sport my pace for long runs has gone from 8:00/mi to 6:20/mi, and I think it's more about running hard than a lot (at least for me). No bigger injuries so far, but as I said I haven't done an IM yet...

Also if you find that you can't maintain a good pace on the run off the bike, I'd say check your fit on the bike. This helped with my running in races. And I'm a strong supporter of brick workouts. I like doing them on treadmills, if possible with a mirror. Helps my work on posture and pacing, IMO two of the most crucial factors when you get off the bike.And speaking of posture. Make sure you got the core strength to keep your posture for the whole run. If you can't race the way you train your training won't help you on raceday.
2013-10-19 7:22 AM
in reply to: JPanula

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Have you tried running a HM on just RPE?

I suspect that if you put away the monitor for a session and just went for it, you actually would be faster.

Ties with most of what was said above - your zones are likely too low (max HR is pretty much set, but the highest HR you can hold for a given period of time can increase - and you're prolly more fit than the zones you're using and might be holding yourself back).

That, and run more often.

Matt

2013-10-19 11:01 AM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Agreed. I thought my MHR was at 200 during the final kick of a 5k. I felt absolutely gassed. Several months later, I raced 2 miles and actually had to sprint against another runner: 211. When I plugged that number in, the heart rate zones 'felt' how they should according to their descriptions.

So, if you are using MHR to estimate the zones, why not try bumping everything up 10bpm or so?

Also, check this out: http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/running/Alberto-Salazars-Ten-G...
2013-11-13 8:50 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
I know I am bringing an old thread back to the top but I wanted to give a big thanks for the responses and an update for anyone else struggling with my dilemma.

I went out yesterday and did a LT test based on the criteria listed on this site. I did the 30 minute test run on a track and used the average HR for the last 20 minute. My average for this period was a HR of 169. This bumped my hr zone numbers up over 5bpm. It turns out when I would do my long runs at a sustainable LR pace and my HR would drift up to around 160 it was right in line for where it needed to be. I was trying really hard to keep it at 155 and under and that is why I was not making any speed gains. Now I am just going to have to get comfortable seeing my hr around 160 and know that I can sustain that effort for a marathon.


2013-11-13 4:25 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Originally posted by clemson05 I know I am bringing an old thread back to the top but I wanted to give a big thanks for the responses and an update for anyone else struggling with my dilemma. I went out yesterday and did a LT test based on the criteria listed on this site. I did the 30 minute test run on a track and used the average HR for the last 20 minute. My average for this period was a HR of 169. This bumped my hr zone numbers up over 5bpm. It turns out when I would do my long runs at a sustainable LR pace and my HR would drift up to around 160 it was right in line for where it needed to be. I was trying really hard to keep it at 155 and under and that is why I was not making any speed gains. Now I am just going to have to get comfortable seeing my hr around 160 and know that I can sustain that effort for a marathon.

And, as some have mentioned, don't forget the run "lots" part.

 

2013-11-13 6:11 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed


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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by clemson05 I know I am bringing an old thread back to the top but I wanted to give a big thanks for the responses and an update for anyone else struggling with my dilemma. I went out yesterday and did a LT test based on the criteria listed on this site. I did the 30 minute test run on a track and used the average HR for the last 20 minute. My average for this period was a HR of 169. This bumped my hr zone numbers up over 5bpm. It turns out when I would do my long runs at a sustainable LR pace and my HR would drift up to around 160 it was right in line for where it needed to be. I was trying really hard to keep it at 155 and under and that is why I was not making any speed gains. Now I am just going to have to get comfortable seeing my hr around 160 and know that I can sustain that effort for a marathon.

And, as some have mentioned, don't forget the run "lots" part.

 




Yup. The 'run lots' trumps the 'run fast' portion unless you're already running a lot.
2013-11-13 11:16 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Your recent logs have you running 3x per week total 25 miles. It will take running 5x per week running 35-40 miles per week and adding in the intensity that you don't appear to currently have in your workouts. I would start with 1x 1/2 mile repeat and then add one per week until you get u to around 10x. Add in a tempo run and a hill workout and see how that treats you. It should help.
2013-11-14 7:54 AM
in reply to: Baowolf


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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Can anyone tell me how to figure my zones based on my LT which is 159 for running. Thanks.
2013-11-14 10:54 AM
in reply to: Baowolf

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by Baowolf

Your recent logs have you running 3x per week total 25 miles. It will take running 5x per week running 35-40 miles per week and adding in the intensity that you don't appear to currently have in your workouts. I would start with 1x 1/2 mile repeat and then add one per week until you get u to around 10x. Add in a tempo run and a hill workout and see how that treats you. It should help.


I realize runing more often will be required to really show gains in my running but I then run into the problem of neglecting biking and swimming. My offseason workouts (as you can see from my logs) are all run and bike. I am a strong swimmer so I can let that go a few months and get back to a reasonable swim pace much more quickly than the bike or run. I plan to continue alternating biking and running through March when I want to run another marathon. I am sure I could run faster if I ran 5-6 days a week but 6 weeks after the marathon is a HIM I want to do leading into IMCHOO.

My typical run workout load for the week is a tuesday and thursday run with tempo, fartlek, and/or intervals. Hopefully this will gve me the intensity you mention. Sunday is my long run day and I will be adding to my mileage weekly building to the marathon. My run last Sunday was the first "training long run" for the marathon so it will be my shortest LR as well.


2013-11-14 11:22 AM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by clemson05

I realize runing more often will be required to really show gains in my running but I then run into the problem of neglecting biking and swimming. My offseason workouts (as you can see from my logs) are all run and bike. I am a strong swimmer so I can let that go a few months and get back to a reasonable swim pace much more quickly than the bike or run. I plan to continue alternating biking and running through March when I want to run another marathon. I am sure I could run faster if I ran 5-6 days a week but 6 weeks after the marathon is a HIM I want to do leading into IMCHOO.


If you truly want to make gains with running, you will need to commit to running more frequently. If you can even add a short 15-20 minute run off every bike, that will give you about an hour extra of running per week (say 6ish miles).

My typical run workout load for the week is a tuesday and thursday run with tempo, fartlek, and/or intervals. Hopefully this will gve me the intensity you mention. Sunday is my long run day and I will be adding to my mileage weekly building to the marathon. My run last Sunday was the first "training long run" for the marathon so it will be my shortest LR as well.


This appears to be a FIRST type run program which I am not a fan of to begin with and also requires a significant base of run fitness. While these plans often look attractive because of the "run less, run faster" slogans that are associated with them, they are very challenging programs suitable for those who have several years of high mileage running in their legs.

Beyond that, if you are doing any intensity on the bike (which I would assume you would be unless you are doing huge bike volume) then you are very likely trying to do way too much hard training and as a result all sessions end up being somewhere between easy and hard enough. While you can make gains following this approach, you will see much larger gains if you structure your program so you alternate hard and easy days.

Finally, with only three runs I would suggest making your long run no more than 40% of your weekly volume (which is still higher than would be ideal) and your hard efforts of the run should comprise no more than 15% of your total weekly volume (and less would be better).

Shane
2013-11-14 11:37 AM
in reply to: garystan

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Originally posted by garystan Can anyone tell me how to figure my zones based on my LT which is 159 for running. Thanks.

I keep fiddling with my 'zones' because every time I read another article, the percentages are a bit different.  in the end, it probably doesn't matter between a couple of beats here or there.  Here's how Joe Friel (a trusted source) sets up running zones (cycling zones are slightly different):

 

Zone 1 Less than 85% of LTHR     <_____

Zone 2 85% to 89% of LTHR  _____ - _____

Zone 3 90% to 94% of LTHR  _____ - _____

Zone 4 95% to 99% of LTHR  _____ - _____

Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR     _____ - _____

Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR     _____ - _____

Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR    >_____

 So- for your LT of 159, it would come out:

Zone 1    103 to 135

Zone 2    135 to 142

Zone 3    142 to 149

Zone 4    149 to 157

Zone 5A   157 to 162

Zone 5B   162 to 169

Zone 5C   169 to 172

 

2013-11-14 11:41 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?

Originally posted by Jason N . x2. Running easy by itself does not make you faster. It allows you to run more. That's what makes you faster.

The importance of the above statement cannot be emphasized enough.  If we're talking about longer endurance events, HM and above and Oly tri distance and above, the amount of 'speed' work is surprisingly small.  5 to 15% of your total mileage (depending).  If you're running less than 40mpw, it might be even smaller than that.  As the old adage goes; speed work is icing on the cake.  first- you need to make cake.

2013-11-14 11:51 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: when do I get faster?
Originally posted by gsmacleod


This appears to be a FIRST type run program which I am not a fan of to begin with and also requires a significant base of run fitness. While these plans often look attractive because of the "run less, run faster" slogans that are associated with them, they are very challenging programs suitable for those who have several years of high mileage running in their legs.

Beyond that, if you are doing any intensity on the bike (which I would assume you would be unless you are doing huge bike volume) then you are very likely trying to do way too much hard training and as a result all sessions end up being somewhere between easy and hard enough. While you can make gains following this approach, you will see much larger gains if you structure your program so you alternate hard and easy days.

Finally, with only three runs I would suggest making your long run no more than 40% of your weekly volume (which is still higher than would be ideal) and your hard efforts of the run should comprise no more than 15% of your total weekly volume (and less would be better).

Shane


My approach is indeed a FIRST type program. My previous coach used it and it seemed to work well with my schedule.

My bike workouts are actually from trainerroad. I am using the sweet spot training plan right now so it keeps your workout below threshhold. It still gives me a good workout but the intensity is low enough that it does not leave me exhausted. I have been using my run days during the week for the higher intensity workouts and the bikes as a lower intensity (generally high zone 2 to mid zone 3 hr) between running days.
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