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2013-10-21 1:19 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by KathyG

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

I agree with the progress of building into the sport.

Yet some of the deaths in tri swims have been experienced triathletes (last year at AG National for example) not newbies doing a race perhaps over their ability/experience.




I agree with this -- there's not definitive answer as to why each person died, but they did. In other words, you can't point out inexperience as the only cause. That said, after reading this I'm going to go get my heart checked. Yikes!


2013-10-21 2:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by b2run

One tri I did this year was an individual stagger. Everyone lined up according to their bib number and we were started five seconds apart. The bib numbers were assigned based on predicted speeds. The problem with it is at the finish line where you can't really see who you've beaten and who you need to pass. I thought it worked out very well though and it sure was nicer than the melee at most swim starts.


Most pool swim tris are this way. I really don't like pool swim tris for this very reason. twice now I have looked at the age and distance on the leg of another competitor in the final mile, and really suffered to pass/stay ahead of this person who, I was actually way ahead of anyway.... lol

I also relate to roughhousing in the ocean and lakes when I was growing up. I was nervous in my first tri start, but after that, swim starts have been a non-issue for me.

Edited by Bradleykd 2013-10-21 3:06 PM
2013-10-21 3:32 PM
in reply to: badmo77a

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

Originally posted by badmo77a At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. “Comparatively, a study by Dr Donald Redelmeier (University of Toronto, ON) of more than three million marathon runners showed the rate of sudden cardiac death to be 0.8/100 000 participants.” What causes death among marathon runners? Coach Joe English of Portland, Ore., identified four major circumstances, which he discusses in depth on his blog. These are: “heart disease in runners over 35 years; genetic heart defects in runners under 35; hyponatremia or low blood sodium levels; and heat related illnesses, such as heat stroke.” According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Greater risk driving to your event then taking part in it.

I'll copy what I posted in the other thread on this that fell off of the front page. Lot of the same numbers 

"The rate of deaths in triathlon is less than twice the rate for marathoners (~1.5 vs 0.8 per 100,000 participants) Given the survivability of an MI in the water (practically zero if you don't tell someone you're having chest pain before your heart stops), I'm also surprised there aren't more deaths. In a marathon, SOMEONE is going to see you go down and probably respond immediately. In fact, an internal medicine resident that I trained with saw a guy go down in a race and immediately started CPR. EMTs on mountain bike arrived within 3 minutes with a defibrillator. The guy was shocked once with return of pulse, and woke up in the ER after transport. This happened last year in Minneapolis. This probably happens at one in 10 of the larger marathons across the country. There have been deaths in the Twin Cities Marathon in years past, but never a triathlon death (at least that I can recall) Closest call was probably the otter attack north of Duluth last year...

2013-10-21 3:45 PM
in reply to: rdailey1

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

Originally posted by rdailey1

Originally posted by badmo77a At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. “Comparatively, a study by Dr Donald Redelmeier (University of Toronto, ON) of more than three million marathon runners showed the rate of sudden cardiac death to be 0.8/100 000 participants.” What causes death among marathon runners? Coach Joe English of Portland, Ore., identified four major circumstances, which he discusses in depth on his blog. These are: “heart disease in runners over 35 years; genetic heart defects in runners under 35; hyponatremia or low blood sodium levels; and heat related illnesses, such as heat stroke.” According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Greater risk driving to your event then taking part in it.

I'll copy what I posted in the other thread on this that fell off of the front page. Lot of the same numbers 

"The rate of deaths in triathlon is less than twice the rate for marathoners (~1.5 vs 0.8 per 100,000 participants) Given the survivability of an MI in the water (practically zero if you don't tell someone you're having chest pain before your heart stops), I'm also surprised there aren't more deaths. In a marathon, SOMEONE is going to see you go down and probably respond immediately. In fact, an internal medicine resident that I trained with saw a guy go down in a race and immediately started CPR. EMTs on mountain bike arrived within 3 minutes with a defibrillator. The guy was shocked once with return of pulse, and woke up in the ER after transport. This happened last year in Minneapolis. This probably happens at one in 10 of the larger marathons across the country. There have been deaths in the Twin Cities Marathon in years past, but never a triathlon death (at least that I can recall) Closest call was probably the otter attack north of Duluth last year...

Do we have any data on the rate of otter attacks in a marathon?

2013-10-21 3:47 PM
in reply to: rdailey1

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by rdailey1

Originally posted by badmo77a At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. “Comparatively, a study by Dr Donald Redelmeier (University of Toronto, ON) of more than three million marathon runners showed the rate of sudden cardiac death to be 0.8/100 000 participants.” What causes death among marathon runners? Coach Joe English of Portland, Ore., identified four major circumstances, which he discusses in depth on his blog. These are: “heart disease in runners over 35 years; genetic heart defects in runners under 35; hyponatremia or low blood sodium levels; and heat related illnesses, such as heat stroke.” According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Greater risk driving to your event then taking part in it.

I'll copy what I posted in the other thread on this that fell off of the front page. Lot of the same numbers 

"The rate of deaths in triathlon is less than twice the rate for marathoners (~1.5 vs 0.8 per 100,000 participants) Given the survivability of an MI in the water (practically zero if you don't tell someone you're having chest pain before your heart stops), I'm also surprised there aren't more deaths. In a marathon, SOMEONE is going to see you go down and probably respond immediately. In fact, an internal medicine resident that I trained with saw a guy go down in a race and immediately started CPR. EMTs on mountain bike arrived within 3 minutes with a defibrillator. The guy was shocked once with return of pulse, and woke up in the ER after transport. This happened last year in Minneapolis. This probably happens at one in 10 of the larger marathons across the country. There have been deaths in the Twin Cities Marathon in years past, but never a triathlon death (at least that I can recall) Closest call was probably the otter attack north of Duluth last year...




I would add in the untrained state of many triathletes. If you run out of gas in a marathon, you can just sit down or walk. If you run out of gas 1k into a 1.5k swim or a 3k+ swim, there's no relief immediately available, unless you're lucky enough to be right next to a canoe/support. Additionally, you have an unfamiliar environment in conditions that promote panic (Dark, wet, cold, constricting suit, chaos, splashing, etc.)

I think a lot of problems would be solved if you:
1. Required some sort of "swim camp" process before you did your first triathlon. Too many times I have heard "Yeah, I heard stories, but I never expected THAT..."
2. Adequate warmup provided- Let people get into a designated area and swim to warm up, rather than jumping in off of a 1/2 mile run or whatever alternative, hitting the cold water and then surging to start.

John
2013-10-21 6:52 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by rdailey1

Originally posted by badmo77a At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. “Comparatively, a study by Dr Donald Redelmeier (University of Toronto, ON) of more than three million marathon runners showed the rate of sudden cardiac death to be 0.8/100 000 participants.” What causes death among marathon runners? Coach Joe English of Portland, Ore., identified four major circumstances, which he discusses in depth on his blog. These are: “heart disease in runners over 35 years; genetic heart defects in runners under 35; hyponatremia or low blood sodium levels; and heat related illnesses, such as heat stroke.” According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Greater risk driving to your event then taking part in it.

I'll copy what I posted in the other thread on this that fell off of the front page. Lot of the same numbers 

"The rate of deaths in triathlon is less than twice the rate for marathoners (~1.5 vs 0.8 per 100,000 participants) Given the survivability of an MI in the water (practically zero if you don't tell someone you're having chest pain before your heart stops), I'm also surprised there aren't more deaths. In a marathon, SOMEONE is going to see you go down and probably respond immediately. In fact, an internal medicine resident that I trained with saw a guy go down in a race and immediately started CPR. EMTs on mountain bike arrived within 3 minutes with a defibrillator. The guy was shocked once with return of pulse, and woke up in the ER after transport. This happened last year in Minneapolis. This probably happens at one in 10 of the larger marathons across the country. There have been deaths in the Twin Cities Marathon in years past, but never a triathlon death (at least that I can recall) Closest call was probably the otter attack north of Duluth last year...

Do we have any data on the rate of otter attacks in a marathon?

no, but apparently the N of 1 dog to complete a half marathon didn't turn out too well...

Runaway dog that ran Indiana half marathon dies from heart attack

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dog-ran-marathon-dies-heart-attack-article-1.1490945#ixzz2iP5DTXPs



2013-10-22 10:02 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

I agree with you. What is your opinion about athletes who are really strong in one particular sport? An example, I have 3 friends who are strong athletes but each in their own way and they all have their sites set on a HIM next June. One is a very experienced marathon runner - she just ran 3:02 in Chicago. Another is a strong swimmer, swam competitive in college and coaches the local swim team, the other owns a gym and has experience bike racing. All are solid, goal oriented, strong athletes but they have zero experience racing triathlon and have significant weaknesses (swimming being the weakness for 2 of them) in at least one of the other sports. 

They are going to do what they are going to do but I WISH they would see the sport as more than just a distance.

 

 




Assuming all things equal I would say at best, they can combine season 1 & 2.

But like you said, people are going to do what they are going to do.
2013-10-22 10:09 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

In my opinion this is an exceptionally misinformed opinion you have there.

The death at AG nationals, the two deaths at IMNYC a few years ago and on and on were EXPERIENCED swimmers. I remember that at least one of the NYC IM swimmers had decades of high level experience.

Swimming deaths are complex to get to the bottom of, but it certainly is not all inexperience, and quite clearly we would still have deaths in the water even if we followed your elitist approach for 4 years you outlined.

Lastly EKGs are not the answer to catch unrecognized heart disease prior to racing.

Me thinks you need to get some of your facts straight....




My point to the progression is to take away the fear and anxiety of the swim and the sport in general. Along with the physical, mental and family preparation for each increase.

All this 'swim safe' stuff is nothing more than CYA and can easily be accomplished with a swim test and a proper progression.

You are correct that some of the swim deaths are from experienced triathletes,, that may or may NOT have been experienced swimmers. I know plenty of people that have finished many an IM and can even remove their right hand from their bike or barely make the swim cut off. Just like how many swim related deaths were drowning? Or 'over-excitation'?

And I would hardly call my approach elitist. If wanting people to stay in our sport long term because they and their family took the time to get use to the training and time commitment is elitist, then YES...I'm elitist.
2013-10-22 10:12 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
If I die tri-ing, I die happy. I do not want to rot away overweight watching TV.

2013-10-22 10:19 AM
in reply to: Marvarnett

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

Originally posted by Marvarnett
Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

In my opinion this is an exceptionally misinformed opinion you have there.

The death at AG nationals, the two deaths at IMNYC a few years ago and on and on were EXPERIENCED swimmers. I remember that at least one of the NYC IM swimmers had decades of high level experience.

Swimming deaths are complex to get to the bottom of, but it certainly is not all inexperience, and quite clearly we would still have deaths in the water even if we followed your elitist approach for 4 years you outlined.

Lastly EKGs are not the answer to catch unrecognized heart disease prior to racing.

Me thinks you need to get some of your facts straight....

My point to the progression is to take away the fear and anxiety of the swim and the sport in general. Along with the physical, mental and family preparation for each increase. All this 'swim safe' stuff is nothing more than CYA and can easily be accomplished with a swim test and a proper progression. You are correct that some of the swim deaths are from experienced triathletes,, that may or may NOT have been experienced swimmers. I know plenty of people that have finished many an IM and can even remove their right hand from their bike or barely make the swim cut off. Just like how many swim related deaths were drowning? Or 'over-excitation'? And I would hardly call my approach elitist. If wanting people to stay in our sport long term because they and their family took the time to get use to the training and time commitment is elitist, then YES...I'm elitist.

People die in sprints, too.  I don't think your 'solution' does anything at all to fix any of these issues.

2013-10-22 10:19 AM
in reply to: Marvarnett

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

Originally posted by Marvarnett
Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

In my opinion this is an exceptionally misinformed opinion you have there.

The death at AG nationals, the two deaths at IMNYC a few years ago and on and on were EXPERIENCED swimmers. I remember that at least one of the NYC IM swimmers had decades of high level experience.

Swimming deaths are complex to get to the bottom of, but it certainly is not all inexperience, and quite clearly we would still have deaths in the water even if we followed your elitist approach for 4 years you outlined.

Lastly EKGs are not the answer to catch unrecognized heart disease prior to racing.

Me thinks you need to get some of your facts straight....

My point to the progression is to take away the fear and anxiety of the swim and the sport in general. Along with the physical, mental and family preparation for each increase. All this 'swim safe' stuff is nothing more than CYA and can easily be accomplished with a swim test and a proper progression. You are correct that some of the swim deaths are from experienced triathletes,, that may or may NOT have been experienced swimmers. I know plenty of people that have finished many an IM and can even remove their right hand from their bike or barely make the swim cut off. Just like how many swim related deaths were drowning? Or 'over-excitation'? And I would hardly call my approach elitist. If wanting people to stay in our sport long term because they and their family took the time to get use to the training and time commitment is elitist, then YES...I'm elitist.

People die in sprints, too.  I don't think your 'solution' does anything at all to fix any of these issues.



2013-10-22 12:17 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths

I watched the OTL version last night, have yet to read the full article.  Despite host Bob Ley's efforts to dramatize the issue ("there have been dozens of deaths in triathlon," repeated several times), it was underwhelming.  Repeated footage of the same 3-4 swimmers hanging onto a kayak or otherwise looking like they needed some assistance.  Physician in charge of USAT study concluding that athletes need to take responsibility for themselves, despite Ley's prodding of a "gatekeeper" idea.

As above, one death is too many so I don't take it lightly, but life is dangerous.  It does not appear to me as if this is an epidemic. 

As to race/experience  progression, I agree with dan in general, but not really from a safety persepctive, would not have helped many of the decedents, as noted.  Of all my close friends I am one of the more experienced open water swimmers, and I am the only one I know that's had to be pulled from the water in a race with a medical emergency.  You just never know.....

2013-10-22 6:18 PM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.

I agree with you. What is your opinion about athletes who are really strong in one particular sport? An example, I have 3 friends who are strong athletes but each in their own way and they all have their sites set on a HIM next June. One is a very experienced marathon runner - she just ran 3:02 in Chicago. Another is a strong swimmer, swam competitive in college and coaches the local swim team, the other owns a gym and has experience bike racing. All are solid, goal oriented, strong athletes but they have zero experience racing triathlon and have significant weaknesses (swimming being the weakness for 2 of them) in at least one of the other sports. 

They are going to do what they are going to do but I WISH they would see the sport as more than just a distance.

 

 




Sounds like the perfect relay team.
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