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2013-10-29 4:02 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
BQ is a 90th percentile scaled to gener and age. Statistically speaking the demarkation from the pack is 1.5 standard devations above the mean which would put it at around 93rd percentile scaled to age and gender if you want to be more precise. In testing say for a GATES program would be 122. A 3:00:00 marathon is typically a 2 Standard Deviation above the mean performance or 98th Percentile This is more like qualifying for Kona than BQ. So if BQ is the Gold Standard then Kona is the Plantinum Standard for non professional athletes. Typically professional athletes, are at the 99th+ Percentle and your podium profesionalls more like the 99.999999 Percentile (1 in 100,000,000 dpeending on the sport) that would be your 2:20:00 down to your 2:04:00.

So 4:00:00 mary is a solid everman's/woman's decently trained mary, perhapse the Bronze Standard.


2013-10-29 8:20 PM
in reply to: Baowolf

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
4 hour is a target mark for sure, something about it... I am targeting 8:30s miles for my first marathon Saturday. A guy at work just average 8:39 so naturally the slowest average I want is 8:38. If that doesnt hold, I tank, feel wounded or whatever I will fight like hell to keep the 4 hour pacer BEHIND me which I believe would be 9 min miles.

Why? I really dont know and this thread has me thinking...... Why am I so intent on beating 4 hours? For acceptance that I am runner? To prove I have a shot at running the marathon at the end of Ironman? To post I beat 4 hours on here or facebook? Because it is a gold standard?

Not really any of the above.... Not sure why... I will say this though I dont care how many caffeinated gels it takes, that 4 hour pacer will not pass me!!!!!
2013-10-29 9:15 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
This article I just saw on Canadian Running was timely:

http://runningmagazine.ca/study-finds-differences-in-mens-and-women...

Edited by jennifer_runs 2013-10-29 9:23 PM
2013-10-29 10:07 PM
in reply to: #4886152

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
I ran 3:20 at age 51. If I started running marathons when I was in my 30s my "Gold Standard" would be 3:00 at most. 4:00 is better than average for ALL marathoners, but is below average for a male in his 40s that trained for a year. Better than average for a male in his 30s is at most 3:30.
2013-10-30 5:43 AM
in reply to: rick4657

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
Originally posted by rick4657

I ran 3:20 at age 51. If I started running marathons when I was in my 30s my "Gold Standard" would be 3:00 at most. 4:00 is better than average for ALL marathoners, but is below average for a male in his 40s that trained for a year. Better than average for a male in his 30s is at most 3:30.


You just totally shot me off a cliff..... I am about 15 months into running and thought I was doing well to hold 8:30-8:40 a mile. I am 36 so I must be slow I have been thinking though what it would take to get down around 3 hours and/or BQ run. Who knows maybe I will shoot for 3 hours another marathon.
2013-10-30 8:40 AM
in reply to: Paulford8


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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
Originally posted by Paulford8

You just totally shot me off a cliff..... I am about 15 months into running and thought I was doing well to hold 8:30-8:40 a mile. I am 36 so I must be slow I have been thinking though what it would take to get down around 3 hours and/or BQ run. Who knows maybe I will shoot for 3 hours another marathon.


First, to address the OP, the "gold standard" would have to be relative to who is running. I don't think my gold standard should apply to a 55 year old male (not that there are not plenty that can run lots faster). That said, for everyone, you have a bell curve, which I believe peaks in the 4:30-5:00 range.

For what it would take to BQ, it probably varies somewhat on the runner, but for me:

I am 36 now. I started running steady a bit over 2 and a half years ago. I ran a 3:50 first marathon almost 2 years ago (about 9 months of training). I have been very consistent since. I have not BQ'd, yet, but I feel pretty good about my next race. I need 3:10, my goal is 3:08 (I figure that is safe considering needing 1:38 under qualifying this year).

Coming of an IM in late July, I went right into a running program after 2 weeks or so of recovery. I averaged in the 60-70 mpw range, and peaked at 70+ for 3 weeks (max week 76 mi). I followed Pfitzinger mostly, following the recommended paces, but I added hill and trail running to improve strength and durability. Hopefully, this is what it takes to BQ, if not, well I'll just work harder for the next one.


2013-10-30 2:14 PM
in reply to: ImSore


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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
Gold Standard for what, would be my question.

Gold Standard for completing a marathon or Gold Standard for racing a marathon?

4 Hours is a decent standard for somebody completing a marathon, but for anybody somewhat interested in racing, I would move that standard to at least BQ.

4 hour marathon ranks the same, for me, as a 60 Min 10k, or a 30 minute 5k; It takes some effort, but isn't THAT impressive.
2013-10-30 6:00 PM
in reply to: rick4657

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
This question is easier to answer when we clarify the term "gold standard" . A gold standard is something that can be reliably exchanged, or used in place of, another less easy to measure unit.

For example, can your time for a marathon a gold standard for measuring your VO2 max? If not, what is the gold standard for measuring your VO2 max.

The interpretation of a 4 hour marathon depends on the athletes age, experience level, body weight, best times for shorter distances, etc.

"Good or Bad" adds an emotional judgement to what is simply the outcome of a process. Making predictions is easy with enough information about the athlete, and improvements in marathon time can be predicted by improvments in proxy figures (ie losing weight, increasing 5k or 10k time, reducing fatigue rate for longer runs, becoming more efficient).

You might want to look into the concept of VDOT or even TriDot so see how those figures "compare" to other athletes.
2013-10-30 6:57 PM
in reply to: Baowolf

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
Originally posted by Baowolf

BQ is a 90th percentile scaled to gener and age. Statistically speaking the demarkation from the pack is 1.5 standard devations above the mean which would put it at around 93rd percentile scaled to age and gender if you want to be more precise. In testing say for a GATES program would be 122. A 3:00:00 marathon is typically a 2 Standard Deviation above the mean performance or 98th Percentile This is more like qualifying for Kona than BQ. So if BQ is the Gold Standard then Kona is the Plantinum Standard for non professional athletes. Typically professional athletes, are at the 99th+ Percentle and your podium profesionalls more like the 99.999999 Percentile (1 in 100,000,000 dpeending on the sport) that would be your 2:20:00 down to your 2:04:00.

So 4:00:00 mary is a solid everman's/woman's decently trained mary, perhapse the Bronze Standard.


^I like this answer very much. And I'm not sure it's even a 'bronze'...maybe 'tin'.

Well said.
2013-10-31 8:58 AM
in reply to: Paulford8

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
Originally posted by Paulford8

Originally posted by rick4657

I ran 3:20 at age 51. If I started running marathons when I was in my 30s my "Gold Standard" would be 3:00 at most. 4:00 is better than average for ALL marathoners, but is below average for a male in his 40s that trained for a year. Better than average for a male in his 30s is at most 3:30.


You just totally shot me off a cliff..... I am about 15 months into running and thought I was doing well to hold 8:30-8:40 a mile. I am 36 so I must be slow I have been thinking though what it would take to get down around 3 hours and/or BQ run. Who knows maybe I will shoot for 3 hours another marathon.


I just turned 37 (ouch) & PR'd at 3:29 (targeted 3:30). 15 months is one thing, but what matters is really the mileage accumulated in 15, 12, whatever months. I realize this is obvious--especially if you spend time on this website--I just wanted to reply & give you some confidence boosting. IMO, beating 4 hours isn't really that complicated. Often, as in my case, it's comes down to how much time/mental strength you have to put in the miles.

2013-10-31 4:39 PM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?

Originally posted by dtoce
Originally posted by Baowolf BQ is a 90th percentile scaled to gener and age. Statistically speaking the demarkation from the pack is 1.5 standard devations above the mean which would put it at around 93rd percentile scaled to age and gender if you want to be more precise. In testing say for a GATES program would be 122. A 3:00:00 marathon is typically a 2 Standard Deviation above the mean performance or 98th Percentile This is more like qualifying for Kona than BQ. So if BQ is the Gold Standard then Kona is the Plantinum Standard for non professional athletes. Typically professional athletes, are at the 99th+ Percentle and your podium profesionalls more like the 99.999999 Percentile (1 in 100,000,000 dpeending on the sport) that would be your 2:20:00 down to your 2:04:00. So 4:00:00 mary is a solid everman's/woman's decently trained mary, perhapse the Bronze Standard.
^I like this answer very much. And I'm not sure it's even a 'bronze'...maybe 'tin'. Well said.

And sub out Kona. That's not even the same sport. 

Olympic/World Championships

Trials?

NY

BQ

4:00 

lol this is complex!



2013-11-01 3:23 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Sub-4 Hr Marathon "Gold Standard"?
I was simply using Kona as a reference point that people on BT should be familiar with to show how hard that is. I am not sure which actual Marathon you need to be at the 98th percentile to qualify for (2:55 ish mary?).

Edited by Baowolf 2013-11-01 3:24 PM
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