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2013-10-29 2:07 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by trisuppo
Originally posted by Zero2Athlete http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JANhIevk-Ow"In 1985, Chris Hinshaw finished the Ironman in second place, and at the peak of his career, he was one of the best triathletes in the world. But years of endurance training left him brittle and barely functional. Today, at 50 years old, Hinshaw runs a 4:58 mile. “The only thing that I’m doing differently is adding CrossFit. That’s it,” he says. “I’m not only functional, I can do things that I could never have imagined myself doing even back when I was a triathlete, back when I was one of the best in the world at it.”" I'm not suggesting that Crossfit is the only way, but I can tell you that after a year of just endurance training for IMAZ, I felt weak, old, and frail. Contrast to my feeling superhuman before I began...I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free.
I'll bite. Sounds like a veiled attempt at advertising...I think we would all agree that some strength training is beneficial for triathletes, especially as we age. I think most will bristle when it is alleged that crossfit is the better way to train for SBR. Okay, here we go...

Veiled??? where is it veiled????

also, he is wrong.

Who is wrong about what exactly? Hinshaw stated that he feels better than ever. Not sure how you can claim he's wrong about that. 



2013-10-29 2:12 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

2013-10-29 2:18 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

2013-10-29 2:23 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

2013-10-29 2:27 PM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

The next point I was going to get to is that people don't do crossfit in addition to another strength program and almost certainly not while also maximizing their SBR time. Therefore it must be replacing something else. It carries a high injury risk and has dubious correlation to increased performance in the first place. It is inherently subtraction by addition into a triathlete's regimen.

2013-10-29 2:29 PM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

Yeah... I never said or implied that crossfit was better.

And a few of the statements you made are just not correct about crossfit - at least not at a decent gym/with a good trainer.



2013-10-29 2:39 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

The next point I was going to get to is that people don't do crossfit in addition to another strength program and almost certainly not while also maximizing their SBR time. Therefore it must be replacing something else. It carries a high injury risk and has dubious correlation to increased performance in the first place. It is inherently subtraction by addition into a triathlete's regimen.

Hypothetically...

I'm a recreational triathlete. I've plateaued a bit. The idea of adding to my 8 hours/week of SBR with more SBR makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My friend takes me to a Crossfit gym. I learn technique, the workouts are monitored by a competent trainer, and I'm having FUN.

Some of my SBR workouts suffer as a result. But, I find myself able to mentally push through that 2x20' set on the trainer because I've rediscovered my joy of putting myself in the pain cave.

I feel stronger. I push harder. Maybe I even knock a few seconds off my sprint time - or maybe I don't. (is that where the debate lies?)

But this change makes me a happier triathlete. Where as upping it to 10 hours per week of SBR will make me want to throw my bike in the garage and never look at it again.

Is that 100% BAD?

And that's basically the only point I'm attempting to make. It's not ALL BAD for EVERY ATHLETE... because everyone has different goals. 

2013-10-29 2:44 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

The next point I was going to get to is that people don't do crossfit in addition to another strength program and almost certainly not while also maximizing their SBR time. Therefore it must be replacing something else. It carries a high injury risk and has dubious correlation to increased performance in the first place. It is inherently subtraction by addition into a triathlete's regimen.

Hypothetically...

I'm a recreational triathlete. I've plateaued a bit. The idea of adding to my 8 hours/week of SBR with more SBR makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My friend takes me to a Crossfit gym. I learn technique, the workouts are monitored by a competent trainer, and I'm having FUN.

Some of my SBR workouts suffer as a result. But, I find myself able to mentally push through that 2x20' set on the trainer because I've rediscovered my joy of putting myself in the pain cave.

I feel stronger. I push harder. Maybe I even knock a few seconds off my sprint time - or maybe I don't. (is that where the debate lies?)

But this change makes me a happier triathlete. Where as upping it to 10 hours per week of SBR will make me want to throw my bike in the garage and never look at it again.

Is that 100% BAD?

And that's basically the only point I'm attempting to make. It's not ALL BAD for EVERY ATHLETE... because everyone has different goals. 

Having fun and enjoying yourself? That's crazy talk right there. I'll bet you wear earbuds and chit chat during races

2013-10-29 2:46 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

The next point I was going to get to is that people don't do crossfit in addition to another strength program and almost certainly not while also maximizing their SBR time. Therefore it must be replacing something else. It carries a high injury risk and has dubious correlation to increased performance in the first place. It is inherently subtraction by addition into a triathlete's regimen.

Hypothetically...

I'm a recreational triathlete. I've plateaued a bit. The idea of adding to my 8 hours/week of SBR with more SBR makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My friend takes me to a Crossfit gym. I learn technique, the workouts are monitored by a competent trainer, and I'm having FUN.

Some of my SBR workouts suffer as a result. But, I find myself able to mentally push through that 2x20' set on the trainer because I've rediscovered my joy of putting myself in the pain cave.

I feel stronger. I push harder. Maybe I even knock a few seconds off my sprint time - or maybe I don't. (is that where the debate lies?)

But this change makes me a happier triathlete. Where as upping it to 10 hours per week of SBR will make me want to throw my bike in the garage and never look at it again.

Is that 100% BAD?

And that's basically the only point I'm attempting to make. It's not ALL BAD for EVERY ATHLETE... because everyone has different goals. 

I guess where we differ is how we have defined our goals. My point is that it is not the best (or in my opinion an effective) way to get faster. If you think it is fun....what are we discussing? Go have fun. If you want to discuss whether or not crossfit belongs in a triathlete's training plan, I would say no as it carries a high injury risk with little potential benefit.

2013-10-29 2:47 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

I'm trying to follow but I think you took a left turn and lost me.

You stated that Crossfit is 100% bad for triathlon training. People disagreed with you, suggesting that it's not 100% bad. Now you are quoting them and asking them to show how Crossfit is better than a structured program. No one suggested that.

The next point I was going to get to is that people don't do crossfit in addition to another strength program and almost certainly not while also maximizing their SBR time. Therefore it must be replacing something else. It carries a high injury risk and has dubious correlation to increased performance in the first place. It is inherently subtraction by addition into a triathlete's regimen.

Hypothetically...

I'm a recreational triathlete. I've plateaued a bit. The idea of adding to my 8 hours/week of SBR with more SBR makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My friend takes me to a Crossfit gym. I learn technique, the workouts are monitored by a competent trainer, and I'm having FUN.

Some of my SBR workouts suffer as a result. But, I find myself able to mentally push through that 2x20' set on the trainer because I've rediscovered my joy of putting myself in the pain cave.

I feel stronger. I push harder. Maybe I even knock a few seconds off my sprint time - or maybe I don't. (is that where the debate lies?)

But this change makes me a happier triathlete. Where as upping it to 10 hours per week of SBR will make me want to throw my bike in the garage and never look at it again.

Is that 100% BAD?

And that's basically the only point I'm attempting to make. It's not ALL BAD for EVERY ATHLETE... because everyone has different goals. 

Good post.  Especially the part about being a recreational triathlete who has plateaued and would rather have a fork to the eye than add more S/B/R.  I can relate!

2013-10-29 2:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.




You are changing the words that I said...

I think your view of CrossFit is a bit off. What you are referring to is CrossFit's WOD's and like I said before CrossFit is more then just WOD's.

I have been to 12 CrossFit gyms around the country, done some WOD's and also done a bunch more then just that. Actually when I was in San Diego I went to one CrossFit gym and the coach their (Former olympic strength coach) has helped mentor me a bit in.....you guessed it pregoresion theories.

To answer the question you posted. One thing that I love about CrossFit is getting olympic lifting repopularized into the public. Many of these exercises can be beneficial for triathletes across the board and other athletes as well. Proper form with the lifts is extremely important and you need to make sure you have the right instructor to help you with that as most go in with less then basic knowledge. Just like CrossFit has it's good and bad coaches, so do many gyms, strength centers, and even collegiate programs. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to seek out the best resource for them based on their scouting and what results each coach has given.

What have your experiences with CrossFit been?

Edited by bcagle25 2013-10-29 2:58 PM


2013-10-29 3:18 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

You are changing the words that I said... I think your view of CrossFit is a bit off. What you are referring to is CrossFit's WOD's and like I said before CrossFit is more then just WOD's. I have been to 12 CrossFit gyms around the country, done some WOD's and also done a bunch more then just that. Actually when I was in San Diego I went to one CrossFit gym and the coach their (Former olympic strength coach) has helped mentor me a bit in.....you guessed it pregoresion theories. To answer the question you posted. One thing that I love about CrossFit is getting olympic lifting repopularized into the public. Many of these exercises can be beneficial for triathletes across the board and other athletes as well. Proper form with the lifts is extremely important and you need to make sure you have the right instructor to help you with that as most go in with less then basic knowledge. Just like CrossFit has it's good and bad coaches, so do many gyms, strength centers, and even collegiate programs. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to seek out the best resource for them based on their scouting and what results each coach has given. What have your experiences with CrossFit been?

You are right, my experience is limited to WOD, and I was not aware there was more to crossfit. I am a former wrestler and I have experience with lifting, and when I tried crossfit at the request of my friends, I was appalled at what I saw. Poor form, doing everything as fast as possible, to exhaustion. Oh, and within a month all 3 of us had some kind of injury. In the 3 years since then, every single person I know (as in real life know) who has done crossfit has come down with an injury, and most have continued to do crossfit with that injury to be tough and then become seriously injured.

2013-10-29 3:20 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by dmiller5

This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

You are changing the words that I said... I think your view of CrossFit is a bit off. What you are referring to is CrossFit's WOD's and like I said before CrossFit is more then just WOD's. I have been to 12 CrossFit gyms around the country, done some WOD's and also done a bunch more then just that. Actually when I was in San Diego I went to one CrossFit gym and the coach their (Former olympic strength coach) has helped mentor me a bit in.....you guessed it pregoresion theories. To answer the question you posted. One thing that I love about CrossFit is getting olympic lifting repopularized into the public. Many of these exercises can be beneficial for triathletes across the board and other athletes as well. Proper form with the lifts is extremely important and you need to make sure you have the right instructor to help you with that as most go in with less then basic knowledge. Just like CrossFit has it's good and bad coaches, so do many gyms, strength centers, and even collegiate programs. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to seek out the best resource for them based on their scouting and what results each coach has given. What have your experiences with CrossFit been?

You are right, my experience is limited to WOD, and I was not aware there was more to crossfit. I am a former wrestler and I have experience with lifting, and when I tried crossfit at the request of my friends, I was appalled at what I saw. Poor form, doing everything as fast as possible, to exhaustion. Oh, and within a month all 3 of us had some kind of injury. In the 3 years since then, every single person I know (as in real life know) who has done crossfit has come down with an injury, and most have continued to do crossfit with that injury to be tough and then become seriously injured.




That is what happens when all you need is a $3K limit on your CC to be certified and own a gym. No need of a exercise science background required. And that is why I put the disclaimer in my comment as I did above. If it looks dangerous it probably is. But if you have the right coach and instructor that won't happen. Those ill-informed coaches are everywhere, not just CrossFit.
2013-10-29 3:37 PM
in reply to: Zero2Athlete

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Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
Originally posted by Zero2Athlete
  • ..I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free.


  • Cross training no, strength training I'll agree with but I will also add that a a good stretching program is also necessary for the exact same reasons. I have always thought that strength training and stretching as the basics of any good fitness/workout program. I would also say that a fitness/workout program without strength and stretching is incomplete.

    Does strength training have to be done with weights? No.
    2013-10-29 5:11 PM
    in reply to: bcagle25

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

    Originally posted by bcagle25
    Originally posted by dmiller5

    Originally posted by bcagle25
    Originally posted by dmiller5

    Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

    Originally posted by bcagle25
    Originally posted by dmiller5

    Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

    Originally posted by dmiller5

    This is what BT needs to do sometimes. Snake oil peddlers should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of the forum. ST does this well. If you coddle BAD ideas, you lead beginners to think they might be good ideas, and that is how people get hurt doing things like crossfit.

    The OP said "I'm a big proponent of cross training with weights to stay healthy and injury free." What's bad about that?

    Yes, the video was about crossfit - but I see nothing inherently wrong with cross training with weights, even though I tend to lean more towards ST with body weight.

    When you post a crossfit video, and say you like cross training with weights, that means you think crossfit is good cross training with weights. I'm in agreement that strength training to address weaknesses is a good thing. Crossfit  on the other hand is 100% bad for triathlon training.

    well that is a blanket statement that isn't accurate. During race specific build, yes probably not good. In the off-season? Much better time for its place in the training cycle. CrossFit is just not WOD's as many assume it is.

    ...yeah. I disagree that is 100% bad for triathlon training. 

    Ok, then tell me what makes crossfit better for triathlon training than a structured strength training program, tailored to the individual's needs, with good progression over time.  Crossfit incorporates complicated and dangerous lifts while simultaneously taking the crossfitter to exhaustion. It is a generic program not tailored to anyone's needs, and from day to day there is no continuity in the program.

    You are changing the words that I said... I think your view of CrossFit is a bit off. What you are referring to is CrossFit's WOD's and like I said before CrossFit is more then just WOD's. I have been to 12 CrossFit gyms around the country, done some WOD's and also done a bunch more then just that. Actually when I was in San Diego I went to one CrossFit gym and the coach their (Former olympic strength coach) has helped mentor me a bit in.....you guessed it pregoresion theories. To answer the question you posted. One thing that I love about CrossFit is getting olympic lifting repopularized into the public. Many of these exercises can be beneficial for triathletes across the board and other athletes as well. Proper form with the lifts is extremely important and you need to make sure you have the right instructor to help you with that as most go in with less then basic knowledge. Just like CrossFit has it's good and bad coaches, so do many gyms, strength centers, and even collegiate programs. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to seek out the best resource for them based on their scouting and what results each coach has given. What have your experiences with CrossFit been?

    You are right, my experience is limited to WOD, and I was not aware there was more to crossfit. I am a former wrestler and I have experience with lifting, and when I tried crossfit at the request of my friends, I was appalled at what I saw. Poor form, doing everything as fast as possible, to exhaustion. Oh, and within a month all 3 of us had some kind of injury. In the 3 years since then, every single person I know (as in real life know) who has done crossfit has come down with an injury, and most have continued to do crossfit with that injury to be tough and then become seriously injured.

    That is what happens when all you need is a $3K limit on your CC to be certified and own a gym. No need of a exercise science background required. And that is why I put the disclaimer in my comment as I did above. If it looks dangerous it probably is. But if you have the right coach and instructor that won't happen. Those ill-informed coaches are everywhere, not just CrossFit.

    That sure is the truth!

    I'm not a fan of CrossFit for a number of reasons, but I will say that like other types of gyms or training studios, there are good CF trainers, and there are crappy ones.  I personally know some people who have used it safely over the winter months as a fun way to have fun and stay motivated to work out during the cold, dark PA winters.  Whether it was the best use of their time if their sole goal is triathlon performance is debatable.  What isn't debatable is that they didn't get injured, they had fun, and they were much fitter, healthier, and happier than if they had spent the winter months sitting on the couch.  To say that CF is 100% bad for tri training is a huge generalization when we consider that everyone participates for different reasons and has different goals.

     

    2013-10-29 5:20 PM
    in reply to: TriMyBest

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
    I think we have reached enough depth and breadth on this topic for it to close. Lots of good discussions here and my eyes opened to a few new thoughts and I hoped everyone else's did to some degree as well.


    2013-10-29 5:30 PM
    in reply to: dmiller5

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
    Originally posted by dmiller5

    Originally posted by ratherbeswimming]

    Hypothetically...

    I'm a recreational triathlete. I've plateaued a bit. The idea of adding to my 8 hours/week of SBR with more SBR makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork.

    My friend takes me to a Crossfit gym. I learn technique, the workouts are monitored by a competent trainer, and I'm having FUN.

    Some of my SBR workouts suffer as a result. But, I find myself able to mentally push through that 2x20' set on the trainer because I've rediscovered my joy of putting myself in the pain cave.

    I feel stronger. I push harder. Maybe I even knock a few seconds off my sprint time - or maybe I don't. (is that where the debate lies?)

    But this change makes me a happier triathlete. Where as upping it to 10 hours per week of SBR will make me want to throw my bike in the garage and never look at it again.

    Is that 100% BAD?

    And that's basically the only point I'm attempting to make. It's not ALL BAD for EVERY ATHLETE... because everyone has different goals. 

    I guess where we differ is how we have defined our goals. My point is that it is not the best (or in my opinion an effective) way to get faster. If you think it is fun....what are we discussing? Go have fun. If you want to discuss whether or not crossfit belongs in a triathlete's training plan, I would say no as it carries a high injury risk with little potential benefit.




    Food for thought:

    http://www.hokksund-rehab.no/filarkiv/File/Forskningsartikler/Stoer... - 14 weeks of strength training improves running economy

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0741-y- 6 weeks of plyometrics (A large component of many crossfit programs) improves running economy.

    There are a ton more, just go to google scholar and type in "plyometrics endurance running".

    I don't think anyone really believes that substituting crossfit or weightlifting will make you faster. ADDING it, however, may. Both for some of the reasons cited in those studies, and for age related muscle issues or imbalances. People make the claim "Well, does/did weights!" Yes. In addition to all of their other training.

    If you have the time, and want to add more S/B/R, that is the first choice rather than adding weights/plyo. If you are maxed out on SBR either through time or just can't stand more of it, then weights may help.

    It's the claims of "I do a 3:05 marathon on a long run and crossfit!" that raise justified eyebrows.

    John
    2013-10-29 5:38 PM
    in reply to: JohnnyKay

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

    Originally posted by JohnnyKay

    Originally posted by msteiner

    But not everyone has muscle imbalances, and even if they have some imbalances, then their economy can be developed through specificity.  

    I agree with this whole-heartedly.  Most overuse injuries can be traced back to training mistakes (some of which can lead to imbalances that may need some specific redress).  Fix the mistakes and specificity can handle most of what anyone needs to compete in endurance sports.

    That said, I appreciate the sentiment expressed by some that they can help customize a program for specific individuals that can effectively 'pre-hab' and/or be materially addiditive to the rest of their training.  However, personally I'm a bit more suspicious about their ability to put that into practice on a consistent basis.  Not that I am out to stop them from trying...

    John, I agree that most overuse injuries can be traced back to training mistakes that could have easily been avoided.  BUT, I also do see it put into practice on a consistent basis by the best personal trainers who work for me at the gym.  The average trainer who only focuses on weight loss, strength gains, or hypertrophy can't do it, but I have a couple with Bachelor degrees in exercise science or kinesiology and specialized training and experience in evaluation and correction of imbalances and movement dysfunctions can produce some pretty amazing results.  For the average person, this might mean elimination of back pain so they enjoy life more, but for the athlete the elimination of that same back pain can mean the ability to handle increased s/b/r training load, resulting in better performance.  I know you often post that more s/b/r is the way to get faster, and I agree 100%.  I'm just saying that some people have some other issues that can be addressed to enable them to handle more s/b/r training.

    I'm definitely not saying that everyone needs this, but I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of people with imbalances and movement dysfunctions have no idea that they have any issues until after we correct them, and they are amazed at the difference in how they feel.

    All that said, IME, better athletes are less likely to have significant issues to correct in the first place.  I suspect that their tendency to already move well, have fewer imbalances, and have healthy ROM, contributes to the reasons they are better athletes in the first place.

     

    2013-10-29 8:31 PM
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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
    A few thoughts:

    1) I don't think anyone would suggest that training for and racing an Ironman, especially at the elite level, is going to be a recipe for all around fitness. So I'm not surprised a former elite would have some issues as a result.

    2) Being fast, whether then or now, is not a good indicator of exercise physiology knowledge.

    3) There are many reasons to strength train, but except for very limited applications, it is unlikely to directly result in faster race times.

    4) Every CFer I know has suffered at least one major injury, often while doing an ill advised exercise or doing something with poor form.

    5) Almost every CF/CFE coach I've talked to seems to believe that CF is the answer to everything even when the data suggest otherwise. It is this, combined with the fact that the brand doesn't seem to care about the quality of coaches it turns out, that I feel leaves many with a bad taste for CF. If they were upfront and said that it can be great for general fitness and you'll be able to dabble in a wide variety of sports with some success, I believe there would be much less antipathy toward CF.

    Shane

    Edited by gsmacleod 2013-10-29 8:32 PM
    2013-10-29 8:52 PM
    in reply to: gsmacleod

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you

    Originally posted by gsmacleod A few thoughts: 1) I don't think anyone would suggest that training for and racing an Ironman, especially at the elite level, is going to be a recipe for all around fitness. So I'm not surprised a former elite would have some issues as a result. 2) Being fast, whether then or now, is not a good indicator of exercise physiology knowledge. 3) There are many reasons to strength train, but except for very limited applications, it is unlikely to directly result in faster race times. 4) Every CFer I know has suffered at least one major injury, often while doing an ill advised exercise or doing something with poor form. 5) Almost every CF/CFE coach I've talked to seems to believe that CF is the answer to everything even when the data suggest otherwise. It is this, combined with the fact that the brand doesn't seem to care about the quality of coaches it turns out, that I feel leaves many with a bad taste for CF. If they were upfront and said that it can be great for general fitness and you'll be able to dabble in a wide variety of sports with some success, I believe there would be much less antipathy toward CF. Shane

    I should have just said nothing and waited for this response to say x2. Well put.

    2013-10-29 9:06 PM
    in reply to: dmiller5

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    Subject: RE: Endurance only training can break you
    Originally posted by dmiller5

    Originally posted by gsmacleod A few thoughts: 1) I don't think anyone would suggest that training for and racing an Ironman, especially at the elite level, is going to be a recipe for all around fitness. So I'm not surprised a former elite would have some issues as a result. 2) Being fast, whether then or now, is not a good indicator of exercise physiology knowledge. 3) There are many reasons to strength train, but except for very limited applications, it is unlikely to directly result in faster race times. 4) Every CFer I know has suffered at least one major injury, often while doing an ill advised exercise or doing something with poor form. 5) Almost every CF/CFE coach I've talked to seems to believe that CF is the answer to everything even when the data suggest otherwise. It is this, combined with the fact that the brand doesn't seem to care about the quality of coaches it turns out, that I feel leaves many with a bad taste for CF. If they were upfront and said that it can be great for general fitness and you'll be able to dabble in a wide variety of sports with some success, I believe there would be much less antipathy toward CF. Shane

    I should have just said nothing and waited for this response to say x2. Well put.



    me too.


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