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2013-11-01 2:20 PM
in reply to: Jackemy1

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by Jackemy1 ...Now you can't just anecdotally say other countries have figured out how to provide health care at half the cost with better out comes without proving the economic laws behind it...

It's probably not necessary to get deep into the economic laws of healthcare vs commodities- because ultimately it will diverge when we differ on the belief that there is an inherent right to basic health care for everyone, or not.  If a person can't afford to get essential medical care- should someone else pay?

And- I agree with the statement bolded (emboldend?) above.  A person can find an anecdote that supports any hypothesis.  For instance, for an estimated 3 % of the population- their insurance rates are legitimately going to go up under the ACA.  Even 3% is a lot of anecdotes to work with!

But I think that we all agree in this:  In the US we spend way too much money on healthcare, and we get poor outcomes.  

here's a good short summary with some charts that PBS put together:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/10/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries.html

 

The question is- what to do about it.  As is suggested above- just adding the pre-existing conditions requirement would put our insurance companies out of business...or, raise everyone else's rates... without getting more people into the system.  That's the beauty of the Heritage Foundation's plan that they put forward in 1989, and has been the bastion of the GOP position on healthcare right up through the negotiations in 2009 until the moment Obama acquiesced to the GOP.

The ACA is a free market plan where capitalistic insurance companies compete on the open market for business, and the government offers help to those who can least afford it to purchase this insurance.  The costs of this assistance are "paid for" via a variety of means in the bill, that were all agreed to and fought for by the insurance companies.

anyway- I really have other things I should be doing.  I accept that we just don't agree.  Romneycare didn't work perfectly in the first few years.  Took a while for them to adjust the laws and the process. Works now tho'.

 

The ACA is about the furthest thing from a free market system. Because of the existing insurance infrastructure, the simplest way for the government to implement however many thousands of pages of regulations in to the system and control the market is through the current insurance network. Off course you are still talking to a Blue Cross/Blue Shield rep and the rep is getting a BC/BS paycheck but that plan you are getting has every dotted i and crossed t stamped and approved by the federal government. The insurance companies are just the front man for the government. I get that the progressives want to still tag the ACA as a "free-market" system controlled by private insurance companies because they will need a scapegoat when this fails. But in reality, that is just not the case. I just want to add also, many states already had laws requiring coverage of pre-existing conditions and community rating before Obamacare. The rally cry of "pre-existing condition coverage" was just red meat for the people. I mean who could be against little Johnny getting cancer treatement?

That just made me think of something.  My CFO has a heart condition which resulted in her not being able to get a private insurance plan.  However, when she came onto the company we just added her to the group like anybody else.  She's fully covered and her pre-existing condition was irrelevant.  I'm not sure how that plays into the greater discussion, but I hadn't given it any thought until you just mentioned that.



2013-11-03 6:48 PM
in reply to: riltri


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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by riltri

How will it change your life if implemented? This is a gross simplification, but essentially how it will effect you. 100% of Americans will have health care. The providers will be paid by the gov't. The gov't gets it $$$ from those who pay taxes. If you are obese, smoke two packs a day and make < $20k annually, you will be golden because the gov't won't collect any taxes from you. If you make intelligent life style choices and make a good living, you will get to pay for the obese guy's insurance and yours. The AHCA is just a watered down version.

Right, cause we don't pay those costs anyway. When the uninsured go to the ER the hospitals charitably eat those costs and never pass them on to everyone else. When people can't go to Dr's and wind up far sicker and more costly to treat because they waited, they eat those costs too.
Intelligent lifestyle choices? Saying, riding your bike on the road? No chance in getting hit by a car and incur tens of thousands of dollars of healthcare costs.
You're completely right, my mom and sister are just leaches who chose to get skin cancer and now can't get insurance. Your "gross simplification" is just gross.
2013-11-04 6:26 AM
in reply to: TriDadinAsheville

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by riltri How will it change your life if implemented? This is a gross simplification, but essentially how it will effect you. 100% of Americans will have health care. The providers will be paid by the gov't. The gov't gets it $$$ from those who pay taxes. If you are obese, smoke two packs a day and make < $20k annually, you will be golden because the gov't won't collect any taxes from you. If you make intelligent life style choices and make a good living, you will get to pay for the obese guy's insurance and yours. The AHCA is just a watered down version.
Right, cause we don't pay those costs anyway. When the uninsured go to the ER the hospitals charitably eat those costs and never pass them on to everyone else. When people can't go to Dr's and wind up far sicker and more costly to treat because they waited, they eat those costs too. Intelligent lifestyle choices? Saying, riding your bike on the road? No chance in getting hit by a car and incur tens of thousands of dollars of healthcare costs. You're completely right, my mom and sister are just leaches who chose to get skin cancer and now can't get insurance. Your "gross simplification" is just gross.

You're correct that we all pay those costs, but those costs were baked into the previous system.  Now with the ACA these costs are going to shift to the taxpayers via insurance subsidies and there's nothing to say the Hospitals won't just pocket the extra profit.

It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

2013-11-04 9:48 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by tuwood
 Now with the ACA these costs are going to shift to the taxpayers via insurance subsidies and there's nothing to say the Hospitals won't just pocket the extra profit.




especially when so many hospitals are becoming for profit.
2013-11-04 10:30 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by tuwood

...It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

 

If you believe that "everyone's insurance [is]...going up" then you're living withing the right wing bubble.

that said- yes, many people's policies will go up.  here's why.  If you were a well paid individual and were purchasing a good independent plan, you didn't realize it, but you were being 'subsidized'.  i.e the insurance company was allowed to not provide policies to those that would cost them too much, so you were grouped with just the healthy people, at the expense of the 'unhealthy' ones.  Now. you've gotta' pay for a policy that's more inclusive. some of that additional cost is covered by the additional people required now to purchase insurance, and there are other sources of income as well.  The gov't is helping out those who cannot afford it (and those costs are paid for in the bill, not by additional income taxes).

With healthcare, we're balancing Affordability, Coverage and Accessibility.  the healthy wealthy person with the good plan had great coverage at an affordable rate.  they'll be sacrificing some of either their coverage or cost in order to allow the other 30 million people to get coverage.  

I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?

2013-11-04 11:05 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by tuwood

...It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

 

If you believe that "everyone's insurance [is]...going up" then you're living withing the right wing bubble.

that said- yes, many people's policies will go up.  here's why.  If you were a well paid individual and were purchasing a good independent plan, you didn't realize it, but you were being 'subsidized'.  i.e the insurance company was allowed to not provide policies to those that would cost them too much, so you were grouped with just the healthy people, at the expense of the 'unhealthy' ones.  Now. you've gotta' pay for a policy that's more inclusive. some of that additional cost is covered by the additional people required now to purchase insurance, and there are other sources of income as well.  The gov't is helping out those who cannot afford it (and those costs are paid for in the bill, not by additional income taxes).

With healthcare, we're balancing Affordability, Coverage and Accessibility.  the healthy wealthy person with the good plan had great coverage at an affordable rate.  they'll be sacrificing some of either their coverage or cost in order to allow the other 30 million people to get coverage.  

I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?




Can we agree that people have the right to peaceful assembly? I think we can...

Can we agree that people have a right to freely assemble for personal benefit? (like in a union) I think we can...

Then certainly a bunch of people have the right to freely assemble together for the expressed purpose of minimizing or hedging risk for their personal benefit. I think we can both agree on that but your statement contradicts that. Why is that? Why is the right to assemble conditional in your view?





Edited by Jackemy1 2013-11-04 11:08 AM


2013-11-04 11:56 AM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by tuwood

...It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

 

If you believe that "everyone's insurance [is]...going up" then you're living withing the right wing bubble.

that said- yes, many people's policies will go up.  here's why.  If you were a well paid individual and were purchasing a good independent plan, you didn't realize it, but you were being 'subsidized'.  i.e the insurance company was allowed to not provide policies to those that would cost them too much, so you were grouped with just the healthy people, at the expense of the 'unhealthy' ones.  Now. you've gotta' pay for a policy that's more inclusive. some of that additional cost is covered by the additional people required now to purchase insurance, and there are other sources of income as well.  The gov't is helping out those who cannot afford it (and those costs are paid for in the bill, not by additional income taxes).

With healthcare, we're balancing Affordability, Coverage and Accessibility.  the healthy wealthy person with the good plan had great coverage at an affordable rate.  they'll be sacrificing some of either their coverage or cost in order to allow the other 30 million people to get coverage.  

I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?

I guess I can also say that you're living in a left wing bubble pretending that everyone's insurance isn't going up.  The administration is trying to portray the only people getting insurance canceled are the 5% that have individual policies.  This is an outright and blatant lie because we have two real examples in this thread of individual business owners (myself being one of them) that have had our existing group plans canceled and the replacement plans have significant premium increases and/or higher deductible/copays.

I have had conversations with 50+ business owners who are both friends and customers of mine and I have yet to meet a single one who is experiencing a reduction in their corporate insurance premium.  I know a dozen or so people who have personal insurance policies that have all been canceled and they're genuinely worried about what they're going to do next year. (these would be the 5%)

Now there is no question there are good stories of people who didn't have insurance due to pre-existing conditions and such that are now able to get insurance.  There are also stories about people who had no insurance before who, with the subsidies are able to now afford insurance.

So, other than individuals who were buying insurance before and now get full subsidies to help offset their overall out of pocket expense, I'm not really sure there are any people who will have their insurance rates go down.  I'm sure there's probably some plan somewhere with $12k deductibles that has a $200 premium that will result in "monthly rates" going down, but I think you'd have a tough time finding anyone's overall annual expense going down.

You're right about the costs going up due to the pool increasing, but that has nothing to do with plans for "well paid" people, it's more like anyone who had insurance previously (well paid, or not) will have their policies go up due to the increases being added to the pool.  How much money they make is irrelevant.

Also, I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't create a government plan to take money from people (believers and non) by force and have the government redistribute it to people who are in "need".  In pretty much every example I can think of in the bible Jesus was about teaching individuals to go out and take care of the poor.
I have seen several times on facebook about Jesus healing for free, so therefore he supports universal healthcare.  I would say that's more like him encouraging doctors and those with the ability to heal to go out and heal for free as a gift to the poor.  That's quite different then the government taking money and paying the doctor to go out and heal.  
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (NIV, Matthew 6:1-2)

So, WWJD?  He would ask you to surrender your life to him and give to the poor out of obedience vs. compulsion.  IMHO  :-P

2013-11-04 1:07 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by tuwood

...It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

 I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

2013-11-04 1:19 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by tuwood

I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?





Jesus wasn't a statist.
2013-11-04 2:51 PM
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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

 

I did not denigrate, insult or ridicule tony or anyone because of their beliefs (in this thread).  I was, in fact, holding up some of the best values of what Jesus professed as something to think about when considering that yes, some of us might pay a little more so that a lot of us can be cared for.  It's a kind morality.  I have no idea what you might have taken offense with, but I apologize if I offended you or Tony.  

I believe your call of 'foul' was unwarranted.

 

Plus- Tony came back with a pretty good/fair response.



Edited by morey000 2013-11-04 2:57 PM
2013-11-04 3:31 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

 

I did not denigrate, insult or ridicule tony or anyone because of their beliefs (in this thread).  I was, in fact, holding up some of the best values of what Jesus professed as something to think about when considering that yes, some of us might pay a little more so that a lot of us can be cared for.  It's a kind morality.  I have no idea what you might have taken offense with, but I apologize if I offended you or Tony.  

I believe your call of 'foul' was unwarranted.

 

Plus- Tony came back with a pretty good/fair response.

I didn't take any offense at all.  

Maybe we need to have a separate WWJD thread because there are a lot of valid discussions/debates about applying Jesus's teachings to current events.



2013-11-04 4:02 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

 

I did not denigrate, insult or ridicule tony or anyone because of their beliefs (in this thread).  I was, in fact, holding up some of the best values of what Jesus professed as something to think about when considering that yes, some of us might pay a little more so that a lot of us can be cared for.  It's a kind morality.  I have no idea what you might have taken offense with, but I apologize if I offended you or Tony.  

I believe your call of 'foul' was unwarranted.

 

Plus- Tony came back with a pretty good/fair response.

Upon further review, There is a NO CALL! 

Neither side will be charged a time-out.  Please reset the game clock.

2013-11-04 4:19 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

 

I did not denigrate, insult or ridicule tony or anyone because of their beliefs (in this thread).  I was, in fact, holding up some of the best values of what Jesus professed as something to think about when considering that yes, some of us might pay a little more so that a lot of us can be cared for.  It's a kind morality.  I have no idea what you might have taken offense with, but I apologize if I offended you or Tony.  

I believe your call of 'foul' was unwarranted.

 

Plus- Tony came back with a pretty good/fair response.

I didn't take any offense at all.  

Maybe we need to have a separate WWJD thread because there are a lot of valid discussions/debates about applying Jesus's teachings to current events.

Maybe we need to count to ten and all stick a pencil in our eye instead.

2013-11-04 5:35 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by jeffnboise

Morey, I'm gonna call "Foul" on this one.  You got a good thread pulled for bringing up someone's (Tony's) religion.  And when i read your WWJD quote, I couldn't help but notice it was in response to Tony.  If that's just my imagination-I aplogize.   But if that's an attempt to elicit a response?... maybe wanna reconsider. 

Just my .02

 

I did not denigrate, insult or ridicule tony or anyone because of their beliefs (in this thread).  I was, in fact, holding up some of the best values of what Jesus professed as something to think about when considering that yes, some of us might pay a little more so that a lot of us can be cared for.  It's a kind morality.  I have no idea what you might have taken offense with, but I apologize if I offended you or Tony.  

I believe your call of 'foul' was unwarranted.

 

Plus- Tony came back with a pretty good/fair response.

I didn't take any offense at all.  

Maybe we need to have a separate WWJD thread because there are a lot of valid discussions/debates about applying Jesus's teachings to current events.

Maybe we need to count to ten and all stick a pencil in our eye instead.

lol, I wonder how many posts it would last.  That could be the quickest thread lock in BT history.
Ron would probably proactively lock it just because of where it would likely go.  ;-)

2013-11-05 12:56 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by Jackemy1 ...Now you can't just anecdotally say other countries have figured out how to provide health care at half the cost with better out comes without proving the economic laws behind it...

It's probably not necessary to get deep into the economic laws of healthcare vs commodities- because ultimately it will diverge when we differ on the belief that there is an inherent right to basic health care for everyone, or not.  If a person can't afford to get essential medical care- should someone else pay?

And- I agree with the statement bolded (emboldend?) above.  A person can find an anecdote that supports any hypothesis.  For instance, for an estimated 3 % of the population- their insurance rates are legitimately going to go up under the ACA.  Even 3% is a lot of anecdotes to work with!

But I think that we all agree in this:  In the US we spend way too much money on healthcare, and we get poor outcomes.  

here's a good short summary with some charts that PBS put together:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/10/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries.html

 

The question is- what to do about it.  As is suggested above- just adding the pre-existing conditions requirement would put our insurance companies out of business...or, raise everyone else's rates... without getting more people into the system.  That's the beauty of the Heritage Foundation's plan that they put forward in 1989, and has been the bastion of the GOP position on healthcare right up through the negotiations in 2009 until the moment Obama acquiesced to the GOP.

The ACA is a free market plan where capitalistic insurance companies compete on the open market for business, and the government offers help to those who can least afford it to purchase this insurance.  The costs of this assistance are "paid for" via a variety of means in the bill, that were all agreed to and fought for by the insurance companies.

anyway- I really have other things I should be doing.  I accept that we just don't agree.  Romneycare didn't work perfectly in the first few years.  Took a while for them to adjust the laws and the process. Works now tho'.

 

 

Spending on healthcare is why the U.S. leads the way in more healthcare innovation.  This is a textbook example for those silly Libertarians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html?_r=0

 

 

 

2013-11-09 6:42 PM
in reply to: dmiller5


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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by dmiller5

I'm not sure if this is quantifiable, but wouldn't some costs be reduced through people not using emergency rooms as primary care and other things like that? If those prices are built into the system already, wouldn't that reduce health care costs across the board?

How do you address cost in a market model that completely removes price between the supplier and the consumer. When a product is "free" to the consumer how does the supplier control the cost to supply the product?

Well first of all it isn't free to the consumer, the government would be paying for something, and by law it must go to the best bid at the lowest price point.

Also, should healthcare really be something that we let demand dictate the price. You really need that surgery don't you, well in that case its going to really cost ya. Healthcare should be removed from that capitalist system. Just as I believe education should be.


yeah, that's not smart. The profit motive creates advances in medicine. Do you think people spend billions looking for the cure for (insert your least favorite disease name here) just for kicks? They do it to make a profit.


2013-11-09 6:47 PM
in reply to: Jackemy1


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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by dmiller5

I'm not sure if this is quantifiable, but wouldn't some costs be reduced through people not using emergency rooms as primary care and other things like that? If those prices are built into the system already, wouldn't that reduce health care costs across the board?

How do you address cost in a market model that completely removes price between the supplier and the consumer. When a product is "free" to the consumer how does the supplier control the cost to supply the product?

Well first of all it isn't free to the consumer, the government would be paying for something, and by law it must go to the best bid at the lowest price point.

Also, should healthcare really be something that we let demand dictate the price. You really need that surgery don't you, well in that case its going to really cost ya. Healthcare should be removed from that capitalist system. Just as I believe education should be.




Your second point poses an interesting philosophical debate. Is health care a right or a privilege?

I don't know what your occupation is but let's say you are a doctor. You went through years of medical school and worked thousands of hours in residency and all the other sacrifices and investments you had to make to put Dr. in front of your name.

Now say I get sick and I need your expertise to fix me. Is it my right to demand that you fix me without any further obligation to you? Or is it a privilege? meaning that I have to pay you to compensate you for the expertise you developed to fix me? Is your expertise and the investment made in yourself owned by you or me?


It healthcare a right or privilege?

Well, free speech is a right, but the government doesn't buy me pens, papers, internet service, and equipment to print magazines.

Bearing arms is a right, but the government doesnt buy me guns and bullets.

Freedom of assembly is a right, but the government doesn't pay for my cab fare to get to the latest occupy protest.



2013-11-09 6:59 PM
in reply to: purestone


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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by purestone

I was too lazy to read this whole thread but do you mean like what we have (or you think we have) in Canada?

I must say that without "having a dog in the fight" as they say our house has talked about the American system and we really don't get it. We have come to the conclusion for us it is just a completely different mind set. I was raised in NZ and Canada both and we (meaning me and my friends and family) just have a core fundamental believe that everyone in our country should be treated equally in the system and it is a right not a privilege to get adequate health care.

You can argue that "some" will milk the system because of bad health choices. But I can also say that all my family both sides have lived healthy, active, productive lives. I still spent 2 years as a teenager almost dying from something unpreventable, my husband lost is first wife to cancer, my husband has a hereditary heart problem. If you had to pay for even my time in the hospital 30 years ago we will still be paying if we didn't have insurance. That scares me.

Whew there is my 1 cents worth


So, you basic thesis is this: people should not suffer the consequences of the poor choices like drug abuse, alcohol abuse, smoking, violence, overeating, sedentary lifestyles, etc. Moreover, those who make good choices must pay for the consequences of others' poor choices.

Call me crazy, but I can't agree with that.
2013-11-09 7:27 PM
in reply to: SeeVee

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
I could call you all kinds of things right now. Single payer healthcare is why didn't have to sell my home when my daughter spent 7 weeks in hospital. Now she requires additional supports and therapy and its all covered. My 3 year old is not some leach.
2013-11-09 8:43 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Originally posted by simpsonbo I could call you all kinds of things right now. Single payer healthcare is why didn't have to sell my home when my daughter spent 7 weeks in hospital. Now she requires additional supports and therapy and its all covered. My 3 year old is not some leach.

Er... That doesn't require single payer health insurance.  That requires health insurance.

I've lived in both systems (Canadian single-payer, and US employer-provided).  My US health coverage was far better.  Most Americans are actually in the same boat  -- a point that most Canadian politicians and media outlets don't really realize, or admit to.

Though your anger at SeeVee's point is well taken.  Implying that people who use healthcare services are all there due to poor lifestyle choices is beyond ridiculous.

2013-11-09 11:22 PM
in reply to: Hoos

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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?

Our system was not broke...............period.



2013-11-11 4:35 PM
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Subject: RE: What is single payer healthcare?
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by tuwood

...It's one thing if everyone's insurance went down because of this cost reduction, but unfortunately everyone's insurance appears to be going up.  So, how is this better?

 

If you believe that "everyone's insurance [is]...going up" then you're living withing the right wing bubble.

that said- yes, many people's policies will go up.  here's why.  If you were a well paid individual and were purchasing a good independent plan, you didn't realize it, but you were being 'subsidized'.  i.e the insurance company was allowed to not provide policies to those that would cost them too much, so you were grouped with just the healthy people, at the expense of the 'unhealthy' ones.  Now. you've gotta' pay for a policy that's more inclusive. some of that additional cost is covered by the additional people required now to purchase insurance, and there are other sources of income as well.  The gov't is helping out those who cannot afford it (and those costs are paid for in the bill, not by additional income taxes).

With healthcare, we're balancing Affordability, Coverage and Accessibility.  the healthy wealthy person with the good plan had great coverage at an affordable rate.  they'll be sacrificing some of either their coverage or cost in order to allow the other 30 million people to get coverage.  

I realize that conservatives feel this is wrong.  but- WWJD?

I guess I can also say that you're living in a left wing bubble pretending that everyone's insurance isn't going up.  The administration is trying to portray the only people getting insurance canceled are the 5% that have individual policies.  This is an outright and blatant lie because we have two real examples in this thread of individual business owners (myself being one of them) that have had our existing group plans canceled and the replacement plans have significant premium increases and/or higher deductible/copays.

I have had conversations with 50+ business owners who are both friends and customers of mine and I have yet to meet a single one who is experiencing a reduction in their corporate insurance premium.  I know a dozen or so people who have personal insurance policies that have all been canceled and they're genuinely worried about what they're going to do next year. (these would be the 5%)

Now there is no question there are good stories of people who didn't have insurance due to pre-existing conditions and such that are now able to get insurance.  There are also stories about people who had no insurance before who, with the subsidies are able to now afford insurance.

So, other than individuals who were buying insurance before and now get full subsidies to help offset their overall out of pocket expense, I'm not really sure there are any people who will have their insurance rates go down.  I'm sure there's probably some plan somewhere with $12k deductibles that has a $200 premium that will result in "monthly rates" going down, but I think you'd have a tough time finding anyone's overall annual expense going down.

You're right about the costs going up due to the pool increasing, but that has nothing to do with plans for "well paid" people, it's more like anyone who had insurance previously (well paid, or not) will have their policies go up due to the increases being added to the pool.  How much money they make is irrelevant.

Also, I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't create a government plan to take money from people (believers and non) by force and have the government redistribute it to people who are in "need".  In pretty much every example I can think of in the bible Jesus was about teaching individuals to go out and take care of the poor.
I have seen several times on facebook about Jesus healing for free, so therefore he supports universal healthcare.  I would say that's more like him encouraging doctors and those with the ability to heal to go out and heal for free as a gift to the poor.  That's quite different then the government taking money and paying the doctor to go out and heal.  
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (NIV, Matthew 6:1-2)

So, WWJD?  He would ask you to surrender your life to him and give to the poor out of obedience vs. compulsion.  IMHO  :-P




I'm one of those 50+ employers, and not by much.

This will affect us in some way, but we are not totally sure what will happen until our carrier's rates come out in January. We do know that the plan that we offer now will not be renewed This is because of the grandfather status regs, it is no longer available. The whole, you can keep your insurance if you like it. Not true for employers either and is not limited to just the 5% on the individual market..

We are expecting rates to increase and that we will have to offer our employees a sub-par product (60/40) plan to meet the affordability test of the ACA, which most of our employees will pick up, because they will not be able to afford the 80/20 or 90/10 plan, which we can potentially offer as our second option, and which may not meet the affordability test. Our insurance right now is probably between an 80/20 and 90/10 plan in coverage. So, the ACA is potentially forcing us to offer a sub-par insurance to our employees, just to meet the requirements, and not force ourselves into bankruptcy because we cannot afford the increases as an employer to meet the affordability.

It is either that, or drop our coverage all together and send everyone to the exchange and pay the penalty.

Edited by pilotzs 2013-11-11 4:36 PM
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So much for keeping my companies current healthcare plan

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