Swim Fins and Kickboards

I don't have anywhere near your swimming pedigree, with only a few years as a competitive swimmer, a few seasons as a volunteer assistant high school swimming coach, 6 years racing triathlons, and two years coaching endurance sports but, I couldn't agree with you more!

I don't even own a pair of fins, and my kickboard hasn't gone along to the pool in about 6 months.

IMO, these tools, along with others such as pull buoys and snorkels, and drills do tend to be overused by a huge factor.  I'm not certain why they are, but suspect you may be right about them being "crutches", but I don't think it's coaches.  Most of the coaches I know don't use them very much, and have a good understanding that everything we do training needs to have a purpose.  It seems to be more of the individual athletes who become reliant on them to compensate for technique flaws, and they stick with them, because it's easier than doing the hard work necessary to actually improve.

I feel they all have a use, but most athletes don't understand what they are for, and just plug away with them in hopes that something will click and they will become better swimmers.  I see the same thing with drills all the time.  For example, any time someone here posts a thread asking what are the best drills, you will see a dozen people chiming in suggesting various drills rather than asking some questions about what the person is trying to accomplish first so they can suggest the appropriate drills.

Thanks for jumping back in and starting this thread even though you felt you were blown off in another thread about swimming earlier this year.  It's good to have more people contributing here with your level of experience.  Thanks, Scott.

No clue but very interested because I can't stand all that stuff. The fins irritate my feet, kick board is just slow and boring. If I see them in a workout I think I "should" be using them so I do and wonder how it is helping me. If it's ankle flexibility, for me that is way the wrong call because I've spent a couple years and some therapy trying to tighten up the tendons in my feet and ankles!

Thanks for opening up the discussion.

Good topic to bring up! I have questions on the kickboard part and will try to stay coherent.  I'm being taught what's been explained as more of a flatter body position (less rolling from side to side) as compared to awhile ago and that using a board or not for kick sets had less relevance to the body roll, since there is less of it in the actual stroke. What do you know about changes in stroke technique that current swimmers up at your level are using? My coach has done well and seems to explain things well, but is not at the level you have been, so would be curious what differences you see up at the level you were performing at. I don't know what's "right", so trying to get a bunch of the best info I can to put things together.

x2! Great topic to bring up!

Unfortunately ...

I totally agree with the OP, so not much debate here .

To be clear, I don't teach people front crawl from scratch, and I don't know how to. They've got to have something that already could possibly be considered resembling front crawl to begin with, even if it's horrible. Maybe people teaching, and learning, front crawl from scratch have ways of using kickboards and pull buoys (and maybe even fins) that are beneficial. I honestly don't know.

Folks I coach individually or in small (really small! we're growing!) groups, for the ones doing structured swim training for the first time (and some of them are actually decent swimmers but were self-taught with videos and practice, maybe a little feedback, or surfers/other water people), I really prefer they don't use any of the 'toys.' The learning curve might be steeper, but what that means is they catch on to good body position and water feel more quickly.

The ones who have been in a structured program/coaching, or are pretty advanced swimmers, I usually leave it up to them. At this point, their swimming isn't suffering because they occasionally use boards, fins, buoys, paddles, or other toys and they can be useful for swim-specific strength training (kinda like doing hills on the bike or running). But I still wouldn't say they're necessary.

I'm also really interested in hearing the OP's perspective on relatively more recent developments/thought in aspects of swim stroke technique, especially at the higher levels.

I do and have had the privilege of picking some of the best minds in current distance swim training thought and coaching. What I've learned is that while there are elements of a strong, efficient stroke and swim training that are common to all good swimmers, HOW those elements are learned/incorporated and how exactly they are executed can be very different from swimmer to swimmer.

Body roll is an interesting one. From my observations many swim coaches have moved from framing it as your body being a board that rolls from side to side (kind of like, say, a raft with a pole running down the middle of its length) to describing the movement as actually being diagonal across the torso, and yes, originating from the kick. There used to be a lot of emphasis placed on being at nearly a 90-degree angle from water level, on your side.

However, the thing is, one of the commonalities in good distance swimmers is that you DON'T see their shoulders dipping down deep into the water. There's a lot of movement and "roll", but not a straight-board, shoulders-across-from-each-other, in-line-with-hips tipping onto the side. So coaches are using different analogies to describe the ideal motion.

One of the best descriptions (and there are two great videos here, too) comes from Sheila Taormina: serape swimming.

 I like to throw in a few 100s of kicking because it really works my hipflexors which in turn helps my running/biking. I don't do it to help my swimming.

There are so many different styles of swimming and different people promoting their products and swimming styles that in the end its about today's marketing strategies. Back in the 80s, were there swim specific style of fins even available? I only ever remember seeing snorkling/scuba diving fins.

If I'm reading the responses correctly some people seem to be saying something like "I agree with you that fins have no place in a swim workout, but they do have some place in a swim workout if X,Y, or Z".

OP stated they have "NO place in a swim workout".

In the case of young children, while I don't necessarily agree with using fins, I at least understand the rationale.  When I posted my original comments, I wasn't so much talking about kids.  I was thinking more along the lines of reasonably fit triathletes (or swimmers for that matter).

I absolutely agree with the use of paddles, although not for developing strength - you can develop strength more efficiently by adding a targeted program in the weight room than you can in a pool.  However, in my opinion, paddles are an EXCELLENT way to identify and correct flaws in one's stroke.  If your hand position is even fractionally off, paddles will illustrate that improper form immediately and that is true of all of the strokes, not just freestyle (front crawl).  Paddles help to make a stroke efficient and more powerful so I think they should be incorporated early and often in a swimmer's (triathlete's) training and utilized on a somewhat regular basis as an athlete progresses - I typically use paddles during a workout or two in a recovery week to revisit stroke mechanic fundamentals.

I am going to respond to your questions 'backwards' so it makes more sense and hopefully I am actually addressing the question. 

Backstroke has changed in that you can now do a front flip turn as well as dolphin kick off of the wall (or at the start).  Breaststroke has probably changed the most dramatically over years past in that your head can now go below the water line (I was disqualified from more races than I can recall for that), you can now dolphin kick off the wall or start (again, I was disqualified more times than I care to remember) and the recovery is now above water, certainly at the most elite levels.  Freestyle and butterfly are pretty much unchanged although you can dolphin kick off the wall unlike in the past.

As to actual stroke mechanics, there have ALWAYS been a number of schools of thought.  For example, in freestyle, should your pull be straight back or follow a slight 'S' shape?  Should your fingers be tight together or slightly apart?  I counter that for the triathlete, trying to improve from 1:45/100 yards to 1:30/100 yards, it does not matter.  For the swimmer, trying to qualify for his/her first National Championship, those things may translate into hundredths of a second - incredibly important at the most elite level.  For the average triathlete, certainly one for whom swimming was not their first language, the most important thing in swimming is developing a smooth, efficient stroke.  THAT comes from a good body roll, which is partly facilitated by proper kick timing.  Unfortunately, you can't develop that on a kickboard.  My other BIG argument against kickboards is that for the vast majority of triathletes, there is virtually NO forward propulsion from the kick.  Assuming you (not YOU personally, buy YOU metaphorically) have half way decent stroke mechanics and have fairly good swim fitness, you can prove this to yourself.  Next time you are in the pool, time a 100 using a pull buoy, then time a 100 swimming normally.  Compare the times.  You will likely see little or no difference.  In fact, I have actually seen occasions when the time with the pull buoy if actually faster than the time with a kick.

Gonna try not to have this turn into 'Swimming by Scott 101' but to fully answer your question on body roll I have to get a bit technical.  To have the most efficient freestyle stroke there must be some body roll.  Let me illustrate my point.  Lay on the floor, face down, right arm at your side with your hand by your hip.  Now, keeping your shoulders flat, with a high elbow, trace a straight line along the side of your body with your finger in contact with the floor, all the way from your hip to nearly a full arms length in front of your head.  It is nearly impossible to do that unless you are EXTREMELY flexible.  What tends to happen is your arm/hand swing out into an arc instead of tracing a straight line - your hand is moving sideways at entry, not straight forward into the proper position.  Now, do it again, but this time, raise your right shoulder slightly off the floor (your body roll).  Now it is quite easy to trace the straight line along your side.  In the water, no body roll translates into your hand crossing over your centerline at entry because of the 'arc.'  When that happens, your hand is in the wrong entry position and your catch is in the wrong position.  Instead of your first movement being BACK, thus propelling yourself forward, your fist movement is down or to the side - wasted movement, wasted energy.

The second area where body roll is beneficial is also at entry.  I call this 'rolling into the stroke.'  Again using your right arm/hand.  As you recovery, your right shoulder rolls up and allows efficient recovery.  At entry, your right shoulder is now rolling down, into the stroke.  That allows you to achieve full extension in front of you.  THAT allows a longer, more efficient stroke.

So, that is a really long winded way to say that I don't agree with a flatter body position!

If anyone is interested, I have a much more detailed description of the freestyle stroke on my blog at http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/31-freestyle-stroke.

Without getting into a detailed discussion of stroke mechanics, I have always described body roll as the rotation of your shoulders, torso, hips and legs around the long axis of the body.  I include the hips since your hips need to roll up out of the way so your hand can begin the recovery at the end of the stroke.  I have never, nor have I ever heard of anyone advocating nearly a 90 degree angle in the roll.  Seems to me that would be a waste of energy.

I agree that coaches use different analogies and terminology to describe essentially the same thing.

Not trying to start a heated debate, rather, just wondering out loud.  If you have a swimmer that is having difficulty with bi-lateral breathing, why would you give them a snorkel and take breathing away altogether?  My experience is that most swimmers have proper rotation (body roll) to their favored breathing side and poor rotation to their weak breathing side.  Conversely, swimmers that are good bi-lateral breathers tend to have proper rotation to both sides.  More often than not, one workout where the swimmer ONLY breathes to their weak side will correct the poor breathing to the weak side as well as create symmetrical body roll.  Again, just wondering out loud.

I agree that most people get paddles that are too big.  I think from a misunderstanding of the purpose of paddles.

Back when I was swimming competitively, we only used pull bands and I agree that too many athletes rely on pull buoys too much.  I think because they have improper form and the buoys correct dropping legs.  That is the danger of pull bands - legs dropping.  WAY too many triathletes accept a sub-standard swim instead of putting in the time and effort to learn proper stroke mechanics.  The end result is they turn to the toys or attempt to beat the water into submission and end up frustrated and worn out after the swim.

Isn't the body roll really the the end result of using the entire body to generate power through the "pull" by engaging the core, hips and related parts/muscles?

Good post and thanks for your time and expertise on this subject. 

Makes sense.  Too be honest, not sure I agree, however I can agree to disagree.  Thanks you for the clarification.

I would say that instead of the end result, body roll is what makes it possible to use the entire body to generate power through the pull instead of just the muscles of the shoulders and arms.

Great phrasing - "what makes it possible" and that means throughout the stroke cycle (including latter half of pull/sometimes called push, recovery, reach, catch, etc.)

Many names - body roll, body rotation, core drive - same function.

I think that's a great idea. Maybe not in this thread ... earlier in the year before my life blew up I was doing a swim tip of the week (but they were to be in a vaguely logical progression) I really hope you DO do a Scott's 101 in parts and I'm sure it will spawn exactly the kind of healthy debate which makes this place worth being at and contributing to.

They'd also make a really good basis for articles.

If you ever come to IL I'll take a free lesson any day .

And just in case you think no one is listening, personally I am more than happy to never use the fins again!