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2013-11-05 12:00 PM

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Subject: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
For the last several years, I have done Jorge's winter cycling program four days a week down in the basement. A week or so ago, I came across a discussion on another site about their recommended trainer program - which entails 10 minute warm up, 2 times 20 minutes at 90% FTP + 5 minutes recovery) three times (or more if you've got the time) a week + a longer ride (3-5 hours) in the 80% range.

Which is better? Why? Is it better to do the intervals from Jorge's plan vs the two steady-state pushes? What is the benefit?

Thanks for the feedback.


2013-11-05 12:25 PM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Jorge's plan offers much more variation and works all the needed areas. Doing 2x20 three times a week would be good but I would think an athlete would plateau pretty quickly. Plus mentally, those are really tough. I can't imagine performing that workout often.

Did Jorge's plan work for you? That would guide my decision as to whether you should repeat his plan or not.


(in full disclosure, I am coached by Jorge but didnt base my opinion on my relationship with him)
2013-11-05 12:31 PM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Let me start off by saying that you can't answer this question with a broad stroke. Better for one person may not be better for another.

That said, they way I understand it is that the workout you're referencing (I don't know if I saw the thread) is talking about riding a lot at sweet spot, or 88-92% of FTP. The benefit of spending a lot of time here is that it allows you to get a lot of training stimulus with slightly lower recovery costs...hence you may be able to do these workouts 3-4x per week. The more time you spend closer to, at, or above threshold, the recovery costs increase and the chances of you completing these types of workouts frequently are greatly reduced. And if you spend too much time well below threshold, then it takes way more time to create enough training stress. Hence the term sweet spot. It's sort of that nice "in between."

I haven't looked at Jorge's workouts in a while, but my guess is that he focuses on a wide range of intervals. From anerobic, VO2 max, threshold, and some days well below threshold. This type of training will help you become much more well rounded...especially if you already have a weakness. There is an analogy about the relationship between VO2 max and FTP. VO2 max is your roof, and FTP is your ceiling. If you only focus on FTP, then at soon your ceiling will be pushed so high that you're now limited by your roof. Therefore you need to focus on raising your VO2 (roof) in order to make more room for your FTP (ceiling).

So to answer your question...which is "better?" The cop out answer still applies...it depends. What are you trying to work on? Do you have a weakness? How often do you plan to ride? What does the rest of your training look like?

If you're riding 5-6x a week, you're probably going to be better off doing a little more sweet spot work simply to reduce the recovery costs so you can ride at intensity on most days. If you're only riding 2-3 days a week, then probably more focus on threshold or higher may work better since you have more time to recover in between. 3-4x a week and you can probably go either way or mix it up. Of course you also have to figure out how much running and swimming you're doing on top of that to complicate things further. If you're only riding 2x a week but you're in marathon training, then I would opt more towards sweet spot rides so you don't wreck your run training.

Hopefully you at least get the jist of the differences between sweet spot and other types of focus so you can decide for yourself.

2013-11-05 12:33 PM
in reply to: ADollar79

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
I'll disagree, 2 x 20' @ 90% is very repeatable. That is sitting the sweet spot, which you can done for hrs.

You could probably do 2 x 20' 90% daily and be fine assuming you have the appropriate level CTL going into the program.

That said, I prefer my program to have variety, as 2x20 would bore me after a few weeks....

Which is better, can't be determined for the masses would be individualistic.
2013-11-05 12:44 PM
in reply to: running2far

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?

Originally posted by running2far I'll disagree, 2 x 20' @ 90% is very repeatable. That is sitting the sweet spot, which you can done for hrs. You could probably do 2 x 20' 90% daily and be fine assuming you have the appropriate level CTL going into the program. That said, I prefer my program to have variety, as 2x20 would bore me after a few weeks.... Which is better, can't be determined for the masses would be individualistic.

I agree. Because it's at 90% it's more repeatable than 95 or higher that many will often do 2 x 20' at. I actually do this or similar several times a week and also try to add in other intensities & durations at times. And it's not going to be one or the other is "better" all the time. More likely for a period of time.

Jason also covered a lot of things well too.

2013-11-05 1:44 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Try a block of 3 weeks on 1 week recovery with each.

The problem is you won't be able to spearate out the starting point of each. you could do a winter crossover study on yourself and any friends who want to play along...you'd have to allow yourself to decondition to some arbitrary level. Ie no bike riding for 4 weeks. Do a standard test battery to get aerobic function/decoupling point/FTP and MAP all at once. this gives you an idea of yoru abilites at several different energy system targets.

Do Jorge's plan for 3 weeks, then repeat the test battery.

Decondition for 4 weeks. Repeat the assessment tests. Do 2 x 20@90% 3x/week for 3 weeks then repeat test battery.

See what your results are.





2013-11-05 1:46 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Try a block of 3 weeks on 1 week recovery with each.

The problem is you won't be able to spearate out the starting point of each. you could do a winter crossover study on yourself and any friends who want to play along...you'd have to allow yourself to decondition to some arbitrary level. Ie no bike riding for 4 weeks. Do a standard test battery to get aerobic function/decoupling point/FTP and MAP all at once. this gives you an idea of yoru abilites at several different energy system targets.

Do Jorge's plan for 3 weeks, then repeat the test battery.

Decondition for 4 weeks. Repeat the assessment tests. Do 2 x 20@90% 3x/week for 3 weeks then repeat test battery.

See what your results are.






Bottom line is that IM'm being slightly annoying because both will give you improvement Jorge's plan hits a variety of targets. Sweet spot is the same general zone that should generally be a rising tide. Both plans will help raise FTP. Jorge's plan my recruit or retain more high end efforts. Great if you race CX or do group rides over the winter with friends or if you MTB over the winter.

If you're training , youre good. Personally I would get bored with 2 x 20 all winter.
2013-11-05 1:53 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
So - I think I understand....my goal is to raise my V02 so ultimately my FTP can get higher.

How would the shorter intervals (and I'm generalizing a WHOLE lot here) from Jorge's program be better at that than 2 longer intervals? (keep in mind, I'm a V02/FTP neophyte)

What are my goals? Get faster on the bike. Get faster on the run. Get faster at swimming. Don't get injured,

I hadn't thought about the impact of riding on the other sports...I am currently signed up for a HIM in June (I completed two in 2011, took last year off from racing due to injury) and would like to improve my time. I have in mind the following for the winter: Bike 4-5 times a week (either doing Jorge's program, or the 2x20 program - for about 100 mpw), swim 4-5 times a week (about 2500y each time...more distance per session if my schedule allows) and running using BarryP's approximately 35-40 miles a week.

As I mentioned - have been following Jorge's plan(s) for several years and really haven't seen as much improvement as I would like...it is highly possible this is my own fault and no reflection of Jorge's plan. I'm just curious what the two plans impact...it sounds like the 2x20 plan gets you used to riding in the sweet spot (I like that phrase) while Jorge's plan may make you an overall more rounded rider. Does that sound right?

Thanks all...
2013-11-05 2:06 PM
in reply to: jswayland


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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
I'm familiar with that 2 x 20 thread on ST. Read the heck out of it.

I've also done a lot of 2 x 20 @ 90% steady state work on Trainerroad in the last year. Ok, I haven't done 3/week religiously, but I did do them regularly.

Honestly, I think (from direct experience) it is mentally AND physically easier and more effective to have a varied training program. In particular, 2 x 20s don't address the long endurance as well that you get readily from 2+hr aerobic bike rides as well. Yes, there's some spillover, but I do think the gains from those 2 x 20s for all riding were grossly overstated in that thread. (Lots of naturally fast guys who would probably improve on any sort of bike training, in that thread.)


2013-11-05 3:15 PM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?

Doing same workout 3-4x a week for months would bore me to death.

Training at different zones helps you in various ways.

 

2013-11-05 4:32 PM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by jswayland

So - I think I understand....my goal is to raise my V02 so ultimately my FTP can get higher.

How would the shorter intervals (and I'm generalizing a WHOLE lot here) from Jorge's program be better at that than 2 longer intervals? (keep in mind, I'm a V02/FTP neophyte)

What are my goals? Get faster on the bike. Get faster on the run. Get faster at swimming. Don't get injured,

I hadn't thought about the impact of riding on the other sports...I am currently signed up for a HIM in June (I completed two in 2011, took last year off from racing due to injury) and would like to improve my time. I have in mind the following for the winter: Bike 4-5 times a week (either doing Jorge's program, or the 2x20 program - for about 100 mpw), swim 4-5 times a week (about 2500y each time...more distance per session if my schedule allows) and running using BarryP's approximately 35-40 miles a week.

As I mentioned - have been following Jorge's plan(s) for several years and really haven't seen as much improvement as I would like...it is highly possible this is my own fault and no reflection of Jorge's plan. I'm just curious what the two plans impact...it sounds like the 2x20 plan gets you used to riding in the sweet spot (I like that phrase) while Jorge's plan may make you an overall more rounded rider. Does that sound right?

Thanks all...


Speed/Power at Threshold is the money maker no matter your race distance from sprint to IM, and even if you are racing steeplechase, cyclocross, mountainbike, or whatever. Vo2 may or may not be your limiter, I'm curious if you have had it tested or what makes you sggest that it is? Genarally training that raises one aspect if fitness will raise all aspects to some degree.

The idea behind Jorge's plan is that it hits a variety energy durations raising "Global Power", or your ability to produce power across a range of durations, but still primarily aerobic.

i did n't write teh plan, but I was in the same training class that jorge was just prior to him writing this, one of Phil Skiba's periodizaiton classes that I don't think he offers anymore. Jorge's plan is a basic implementation of Phil Skiba's philosophy. Phil Skiba is the creator of RaceDay (a WKO Competor), and was Joanna Zeigler's coach. He also wrote a few great books on training that you may want to get. Visit his website for more info, just google his name.


2013-11-05 5:15 PM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
It sounds like you're trying to do way too much. If you want to make real bike improvements, you have to sacrifice some time on the swim and run training. If you expect to still swim 10-12k per week, and run 30-40 mpw while doing any type of bike focus (Jorge's plan or any other), you're probably going to need to complete those bike workouts at a much lower intensity than prescribed...and you probably won't see the results you're hoping for.

The old saying is if you want to improve your bike, ride like a pure cyclist. Improve on the swim...train like a pure swimmer. Improve on the run...train like a pure runner.

Your winter plan looks like an awful lot of volume.

2013-11-06 5:17 AM
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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by jswayland



I hadn't thought about the impact of riding on the other sports...I am currently signed up for a HIM in June (I completed two in 2011, took last year off from racing due to injury) and would like to improve my time. I have in mind the following for the winter: Bike 4-5 times a week (either doing Jorge's program, or the 2x20 program - for about 100 mpw), swim 4-5 times a week (about 2500y each time...more distance per session if my schedule allows) and running using BarryP's approximately 35-40 miles a week.



I read Jason's comment and he is right, that is a lot of training. But from your logs I see you work very hard. Congratulations. You seem to have the will power. But the above is 14 workouts a week :-)

Back to your original question. I went and looked at Jorge's workouts again. I did them twiice. First year I saw big improvements, second year less.

He basically takes a 16 week period, breaks it in 4 and tests between each section.
First 2 weeks he just gets you on the trainer then tests
He then does a few weeks at 30", 1 min and 2 min, then tests
Then he does what I found the hardest block of 4" intervals, which I remember were brutal. He does this for a few weeks then tests
He then slowly builds up to 2x20' by increasing from 3x12, 2x15...ranging from 85 to 90 to 95%. By the last week he is at 2x20 @95% then a final test.

I think his approach makes a lot of sense. He is developing your CP curve from left to right.
IMO I think he spends a too little time on the left side of the curve and he goes a little easy on people when get gets to the right side of the curve
If someone knows their FTP, I suspect they could test a little less testing and add some more work to each section.
Or stretch out the plan to say 20 weeks and maybe be a little more aggressive on each chunk.

Sounds more balanced that repeating the other workout 3x per week


Edited by marcag 2013-11-06 5:28 AM
2013-11-06 6:26 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter.

As to Jason's comment that I am throwing in a lot of training...yeah. Unfortunately - I'm of the twisted school of "if one is good, two must be better" (It's how I got put on chipotle chili probation at home after too many dinners of chili that were simply too spicy to eat)...but I hadn't considered that I may not be giving myself enough recovery time. A PF flare-up last weekend has made things abundantly clear...I need to dial the volume back so I can work at the intensity levels I need in order to improve.

Many, many thanks for the feedback - much more than I had anticipated. I'll let you all know how it turns out in April!
2013-11-06 6:47 AM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?

Originally posted by jswayland This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter. 
Jenn, modified how?  Added weeks, shortened, etc?  IMHO that's a a long time between tests and you'll be missing out on some benefits the testing baseline provides.  I personally see a lot of the gains from the 1st and 2nd phases and less so on the last phase. I don't do the last test as I'm usually rolling the plan into race taper and the work was been done.

2013-11-06 7:22 AM
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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by jswayland This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter. 
Jenn, modified how?  Added weeks, shortened, etc?  IMHO that's a a long time between tests and you'll be missing out on some benefits the testing baseline provides.  I personally see a lot of the gains from the 1st and 2nd phases and less so on the last phase. I don't do the last test as I'm usually rolling the plan into race taper and the work was been done.




I agree with this. I hate testing. If I were to limit the testing I would say the most important would probably do it just before the block with the 6x4's. You are supposed to do them at your 20'Power and increase the last one and use it as the base for the next week. These were tough sets. I think you only get 45sec rest and you are doing them at probably something like 105% of FTP. The 45 sec is the killer.

Are you going to do it with virtual power, real power or HR ?






Edited by marcag 2013-11-06 7:24 AM


2013-11-06 7:39 AM
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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by jswayland

This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter.


I think Jorge's plan is a good choice because of the variety and will likely lead to bigger gains in FTP than simply doing 2x20's at 90% three times a week.

To the testing, I would recommend more testing as testing is valuable because it allows you to see whether or not you have improved fitness during a block of training and either establish new training levels if you've improved or make changes to your training if you haven't not seen improvement.

Additionally, testing sessions are some of the most vaulable trainign sessions as they generally provide a little extra motivation to push hard through the test and will therefore have a significant training effect.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2013-11-06 7:39 AM
2013-11-06 8:36 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by jswayland This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter. 
Jenn, modified how?  Added weeks, shortened, etc?  IMHO that's a a long time between tests and you'll be missing out on some benefits the testing baseline provides.  I personally see a lot of the gains from the 1st and 2nd phases and less so on the last phase. I don't do the last test as I'm usually rolling the plan into race taper and the work was been done.




I was thinking of adding additional weeks to each phase (1 additional week to phase 1 and 2, 2 additional weeks to phase 3). As to testing...in Jorge's plan - there is a recovery week (essentially) prior to the test - and in my pea brain (which we have shown is not the best), I was thinking by throwing out the recovery week + test, I would improve...but now (based on both Donto's and Gavin's feedback) I'm thinking the recovery/testing will serve a definite purpose for me.

Now that I am reading what I just wrote...I think I just need to follow Jorge's plan as written. He's the expert - not me. I do think that last year in particular, while I "followed" the plan, I wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should have been in terms of pushing myself...if the workout said Z2, I would be on the very low edge of Z2. For the 105% efforts, I touched 100% and flirted with 105%, but certainly not for an entire 4 minutes.

I will be doing the program based on HR (I don't have a power meter, nor a computer that could support TrainerRoad for virtual power). That's next on the big purchase list for triathlon.
2013-11-06 8:52 AM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?

Originally posted by jswayland
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by jswayland This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter. 
Jenn, modified how?  Added weeks, shortened, etc?  IMHO that's a a long time between tests and you'll be missing out on some benefits the testing baseline provides.  I personally see a lot of the gains from the 1st and 2nd phases and less so on the last phase. I don't do the last test as I'm usually rolling the plan into race taper and the work was been done.

I was thinking of adding additional weeks to each phase (1 additional week to phase 1 and 2, 2 additional weeks to phase 3). As to testing...in Jorge's plan - there is a recovery week (essentially) prior to the test - and in my pea brain (which we have shown is not the best), I was thinking by throwing out the recovery week + test, I would improve...but now (based on both Donto's and Gavin's feedback) I'm thinking the recovery/testing will serve a definite purpose for me. Now that I am reading what I just wrote...I think I just need to follow Jorge's plan as written. He's the expert - not me. I do think that last year in particular, while I "followed" the plan, I wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should have been in terms of pushing myself...if the workout said Z2, I would be on the very low edge of Z2. For the 105% efforts, I touched 100% and flirted with 105%, but certainly not for an entire 4 minutes. I will be doing the program based on HR (I don't have a power meter, nor a computer that could support TrainerRoad for virtual power). That's next on the big purchase list for triathlon.

I'm modifying my HIM training plan (race in 20 weeks) by doing the cycling plan and adding weeks to phase 1 and phase 2.  I dig doing phase 1, phase 2 hurts but I can tolerate it, phase 3 I dread (boring) and need to get some active feedback or TV shows/movies going.

Do you have a Kinetic or CycleOps fluid trainer?  If so I have a spreadsheet that will allow you to use the virtual power method.  I tried HR/RPE the very 1st time and abandoned it and developed my spreadsheet.

2013-11-06 9:05 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by jswayland
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by jswayland This is great Marc - thank you. And KathyG - you are right...doing the same workout over and over again (especially on the trainer) is a recipe for burnout...so I"m going to follow Jorge's modified plan (I think just one test at the beginning for a baseline and one test at the end to measure progress - adding in additional work at the end third) this winter. 
Jenn, modified how?  Added weeks, shortened, etc?  IMHO that's a a long time between tests and you'll be missing out on some benefits the testing baseline provides.  I personally see a lot of the gains from the 1st and 2nd phases and less so on the last phase. I don't do the last test as I'm usually rolling the plan into race taper and the work was been done.

I was thinking of adding additional weeks to each phase (1 additional week to phase 1 and 2, 2 additional weeks to phase 3). As to testing...in Jorge's plan - there is a recovery week (essentially) prior to the test - and in my pea brain (which we have shown is not the best), I was thinking by throwing out the recovery week + test, I would improve...but now (based on both Donto's and Gavin's feedback) I'm thinking the recovery/testing will serve a definite purpose for me. Now that I am reading what I just wrote...I think I just need to follow Jorge's plan as written. He's the expert - not me. I do think that last year in particular, while I "followed" the plan, I wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should have been in terms of pushing myself...if the workout said Z2, I would be on the very low edge of Z2. For the 105% efforts, I touched 100% and flirted with 105%, but certainly not for an entire 4 minutes. I will be doing the program based on HR (I don't have a power meter, nor a computer that could support TrainerRoad for virtual power). That's next on the big purchase list for triathlon.

I'm modifying my HIM training plan (race in 20 weeks) by doing the cycling plan and adding weeks to phase 1 and phase 2.  I dig doing phase 1, phase 2 hurts but I can tolerate it, phase 3 I dread (boring) and need to get some active feedback or TV shows/movies going.

Do you have a Kinetic or CycleOps fluid trainer?  If so I have a spreadsheet that will allow you to use the virtual power method.  I tried HR/RPE the very 1st time and abandoned it and developed my spreadsheet.




I have a CycleOps - and a spreadsheet that will help with virtual power would be MUCH appreciated!

How many weeks do you add to phase 1 and phase 2? Do you just repeat a week?
2013-11-06 9:12 AM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by jswayland

I have a CycleOps - and a spreadsheet that will help with virtual power would be MUCH appreciated!

How many weeks do you add to phase 1 and phase 2? Do you just repeat a week?


Is it the Cycleops fluid trainer ? If so, do you have an ANT+ stick and a Garmin speed sensor ? If so, Virtual power is your friend.

You can do the program on TrainerRoad for a slight monthly fee or Golden Cheetah

Definitely worth the investment in an ANT+ stick. Virtual power will get you much more benefit out of this program



2013-11-06 9:17 AM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
[QUOTE
Now that I am reading what I just wrote...I think I just need to follow Jorge's plan as written. He's the expert - not me. I do think that last year in particular, while I "followed" the plan, I wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should have been in terms of pushing myself...if the workout said Z2, I would be on the very low edge of Z2. For the 105% efforts, I touched 100% and flirted with 105%, but certainly not for an entire 4 minutes.

I will be doing the program based on HR (I don't have a power meter, nor a computer that could support TrainerRoad for virtual power). That's next on the big purchase list for triathlon.


Having read this, I think you know what you should probably do. There are lots of plans out there if you are uncomfortable training by feel. If you are going to follow one you might as well follow it as they are created by people with knowledge who have put effort into them. Having said that, I am a firm believer in the 'cycling is a blue collar sport' saying. An honest question: How comfortable are you with your ability to suffer on the bike? Trainer and outside? I ask seriously because most of the people who I've ridden with that struggle seem to not really know what real suffering is on the bike and once they do figure it out they make great progress. For me it happened when I started riding with some roadies in hilly areas. If you are just going by HR and having trouble pushing maybe you are carrying too much fatigue or you need extra motivation. I went through your logs and saw where you made a note about having trouble keeping your HR up...that is common. How do your legs feel when you are doing intervals? Your on the trainer a few times a week? Are they screaming/burning? Do you feel like you might throw up towards the end? I'm asking because if you are inadvertently doing some of these 2x20 at 8x%, next thing you know, your really aren't putting in 'that' much work. It is just something to think about. I know I used to have major issues pushing myself on my trainer until I got a powertap and some sufferfest videos with a couple big fans.
2013-11-06 9:17 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jswayland

I have a CycleOps - and a spreadsheet that will help with virtual power would be MUCH appreciated!

How many weeks do you add to phase 1 and phase 2? Do you just repeat a week?


Is it the Cycleops fluid trainer ? If so, do you have an ANT+ stick and a Garmin speed sensor ? If so, Virtual power is your friend.

You can do the program on TrainerRoad for a slight monthly fee or Golden Cheetah

Definitely worth the investment in an ANT+ stick. Virtual power will get you much more benefit out of this program




It is the Cycleops fluid trainer, and I do have an ANT+ stick and a Garmin speed sensor. Just haven't connected everything up.....the rub here is the only computer I have that is moveable (to the basement where the trainer is) won't support TrainerRoad. A new computer is on the list...but sadly, other things are higher on the list (you know - like wood for the wood stove). I'll take a look for Golden Cheetah.

Are there any tricks to doing the setup for virtual power? I am a bit of a luddite, so use small words
2013-11-06 9:27 AM
in reply to: jswayland

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by jswayland

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jswayland

I have a CycleOps - and a spreadsheet that will help with virtual power would be MUCH appreciated!

How many weeks do you add to phase 1 and phase 2? Do you just repeat a week?


Is it the Cycleops fluid trainer ? If so, do you have an ANT+ stick and a Garmin speed sensor ? If so, Virtual power is your friend.

You can do the program on TrainerRoad for a slight monthly fee or Golden Cheetah

Definitely worth the investment in an ANT+ stick. Virtual power will get you much more benefit out of this program




It is the Cycleops fluid trainer, and I do have an ANT+ stick and a Garmin speed sensor. Just haven't connected everything up.....the rub here is the only computer I have that is moveable (to the basement where the trainer is) won't support TrainerRoad. A new computer is on the list...but sadly, other things are higher on the list (you know - like wood for the wood stove). I'll take a look for Golden Cheetah.

Are there any tricks to doing the setup for virtual power? I am a bit of a luddite, so use small words


If you work hard enough on the bike, wood is not needed in the wood stove :-)
Summary of GC, you need to add the Ant+ device in the Tools->options->Training devices. I believe it is here you say you have a Cycleops as well
Then you go to the training tab, select widgets to display HR, Power.....customize it
You select the Ant+ device you configured above and press start,

it's not that bad, you will figure it out.
2013-11-06 10:04 AM
in reply to: acumenjay

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Subject: RE: 2 x 20 vs. Jorge's Winter Cycling - which is better?
Originally posted by acumenjay

[QUOTE
Now that I am reading what I just wrote...I think I just need to follow Jorge's plan as written. He's the expert - not me. I do think that last year in particular, while I "followed" the plan, I wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should have been in terms of pushing myself...if the workout said Z2, I would be on the very low edge of Z2. For the 105% efforts, I touched 100% and flirted with 105%, but certainly not for an entire 4 minutes.

I will be doing the program based on HR (I don't have a power meter, nor a computer that could support TrainerRoad for virtual power). That's next on the big purchase list for triathlon.


Having read this, I think you know what you should probably do. There are lots of plans out there if you are uncomfortable training by feel. If you are going to follow one you might as well follow it as they are created by people with knowledge who have put effort into them. Having said that, I am a firm believer in the 'cycling is a blue collar sport' saying. An honest question: How comfortable are you with your ability to suffer on the bike? Trainer and outside? I ask seriously because most of the people who I've ridden with that struggle seem to not really know what real suffering is on the bike and once they do figure it out they make great progress. For me it happened when I started riding with some roadies in hilly areas. If you are just going by HR and having trouble pushing maybe you are carrying too much fatigue or you need extra motivation. I went through your logs and saw where you made a note about having trouble keeping your HR up...that is common. How do your legs feel when you are doing intervals? Your on the trainer a few times a week? Are they screaming/burning? Do you feel like you might throw up towards the end? I'm asking because if you are inadvertently doing some of these 2x20 at 8x%, next thing you know, your really aren't putting in 'that' much work. It is just something to think about. I know I used to have major issues pushing myself on my trainer until I got a powertap and some sufferfest videos with a couple big fans.


This is spot on. I have been thinking about this quite a bit in the last couple of weeks - I don't think I suffer much right now on the bike. I think I need to accept this is the new normal and that (in turn) will force me to spend more time recovering (which I don't do right now). I've got the fans, I'll hook up the ANT+ stick and load Golden Cheetah on the laptop and really put some painful effort into it.

Thank you all again for your input/feedback - I got MUCH more out of this thread than I anticipated. Now to suffer.
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