General Discussion Triathlon Talk » No love for Shimano 105? Rss Feed  
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2013-11-08 12:18 PM

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DC
Subject: No love for Shimano 105?
Off another thread, folks overwhelmingly suggest upgrading to Ultegra & not DA. Assuming the bike had an older group or a Tiagra set-up... why not "upgrade" to 105? I guess I don't understand the agmt that the extra $ for DA is not worth it but the extra $ for Ultegra is. Am I missing something?



2013-11-08 12:23 PM
in reply to: #4895195

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
105 works fine. Ultegra has higher resale value.
2013-11-08 12:30 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
If my bike had 105 I would have a hard time convincing myself to upgrade at all.

I'm just so used to having all Ultegra stuff that If I were upgrading, I would go all the way to Ultegra. Easier to sell off if it comes to that.

I know, because I changed out my setup from Tiagra to Ultegra that there is a world of difference in the feel of shifting between the two.

I've had some DA stuff and the only difference between Ultegra and DA that I can tell is weight. They're both great and I'm not that worried about 500 grams here, 300 grams there.

2013-11-08 12:34 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by DanielG



I've had some DA stuff and the only difference between Ultegra and DA that I can tell is weight. They're both great and I'm not that worried about 500 grams here, 300 grams there.




And I have DA and 105 and can't tell the difference... and I'm a one-hour 40K TT guy. Not that that qualifies me as an expert.
2013-11-08 12:37 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
I didn't get that sense.

I think part of the reason someone would suggest going from Tiagra to Ultegra is that the price jump from 105 to Ultegra isn't that much. If you're going to spend the money to upgrade, why just go one level when a little more takes you one more notch up. The price difference between Ultegra and DA is a lot wider. DA is basically double the price of Ultegra and most would agree that it's not twice as good.

Same goes with SRAM and how they price out their Rival/Force/Red lines.

2013-11-08 12:50 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by Porfirio

Originally posted by DanielG



I've had some DA stuff and the only difference between Ultegra and DA that I can tell is weight. They're both great and I'm not that worried about 500 grams here, 300 grams there.




And I have DA and 105 and can't tell the difference... and I'm a one-hour 40K TT guy. Not that that qualifies me as an expert.


Okay, so only upgrade to 105. That was easy.

You asked. I said my reasoning.



2013-11-08 1:04 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
On my road bikes, I've had the following groupsets:

105 7 speed (downtube, indexed)
Tiagra 9 speed STI
105 10 speed STI
Dura Ace 10 speed STI
Ultegra/105 9 speed TT
Dura Ace 10 speed TT

IME these all performed well and as long as the cables/housing was in good condition and the drivetrain was clean, there was very little difference in performance. I've raced on all the groupsets except the 105 7 speed and would not hesitate to race on any of them again; I only went with Dura Ace over 105 on my current road and tribikes because I got a good deal (and because it shiny ).

Shane
2013-11-08 1:19 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

105 front derailleur or brakes aren't a terrible option. Once they break, it's worth stepping up.

The rear derailleur, shifters, and levers get a lot more use. The seals, rivets, and springs are much cleaner (in design) and durable on Ultegra and DuraAce components This will lead to smoother shifting. For the mechanic, this will lead to easier alignment and fine tuning.

Cranks, bottom brackets, chain, rings, and cassette get the most use. A 105 drivetrain won't fall apart, but there is a difference in metal quality and in weight. 105 rings, cassettes, and cranks are a tad more bulky than Ultegra and DuraAce. The chains will look similar, but when you cross gear (not that you should ever do that) you'll notice that Ultegra and DuraAce chains have better sideways flex. Hence no dripped gears of chain suck.

2013-11-08 1:41 PM
in reply to: vertseven

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by vertseven

105 front derailleur or brakes aren't a terrible option. Once they break, it's worth stepping up.

The rear derailleur, shifters, and levers get a lot more use. The seals, rivets, and springs are much cleaner (in design) and durable on Ultegra and DuraAce components This will lead to smoother shifting. For the mechanic, this will lead to easier alignment and fine tuning.

Cranks, bottom brackets, chain, rings, and cassette get the most use. A 105 drivetrain won't fall apart, but there is a difference in metal quality and in weight. 105 rings, cassettes, and cranks are a tad more bulky than Ultegra and DuraAce. The chains will look similar, but when you cross gear (not that you should ever do that) you'll notice that Ultegra and DuraAce chains have better sideways flex. Hence no dripped gears of chain suck.




Jason N: Good point on pricing. And heck, some bling isn't a bad thing.

Vertseven: These are interesting observations. Although, the 105 9 speed components on a circa 2004 bike I just replaced, never failed. Always smooth reliable shifting.

I guess if a newbie were to ask my advice, I'd say 105. Whatever $ saved, even if it's a little, can be better spent elsewhere.
2013-11-08 2:10 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

Originally posted by Porfiriovertseven: These are interesting observations. Although, the 105 9 speed components on a circa 2004 bike I just replaced, never failed. Always smooth reliable shifting. I guess if a newbie were to ask my advice, I'd say 105. Whatever $ saved, even if it's a little, can be better spent elsewhere.

I'm not hating. I raced an entire season on LX/XT (the mountain bike equivalent of 105/Ultegra) with no problems. LX front derailleur, brakes, and BB. The rest was XT. After some abuse the LX did show Shimano's lack of interest in design, but still reliable. THe same is so for 105. As a mechanic, I prefered Ultegra and DuraAce solely because the lock screws weren't as bulky and less likely to bend and the tension adjusters on the rear derailleur, shifters, and brake levers were more incremental than 105/LX. This was a big deal when tuning up a bike for roadies and (ahem) tri geeks. We tend to be extra picky about how much we have to squeeze on the brake lever or pull on a shifter lever. 

When I said "when they break" I was being more general and not expecting 105 to go kaput. It's always better to replace a part with something slightly better in hopes that the new purchase will last longer. For the record, my road bike (I've owned it since 1995) has yet to be "upgraded" to DuraAce.

2013-11-08 2:31 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by DanielG

If my bike had 105 I would have a hard time convincing myself to upgrade at all.

I'm just so used to having all Ultegra stuff that If I were upgrading, I would go all the way to Ultegra. Easier to sell off if it comes to that.

I know, because I changed out my setup from Tiagra to Ultegra that there is a world of difference in the feel of shifting between the two.

I've had some DA stuff and the only difference between Ultegra and DA that I can tell is weight. They're both great and I'm not that worried about 500 grams here, 300 grams there.




I had so many issues with my Tiagra gearing, I refused to do anything but Ultegra. I'm sure 105 would have been fine, but I was so over the constant annoyance of cr@ppy gearing I wanted the best I felt comfortable buying (Durace was more expensive than I wanted to go).

My boyfriend had a bike with 105 components and was more than happy with it.



2013-11-08 3:10 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by Porfirio

Vertseven: These are interesting observations. Although, the 105 9 speed components on a circa 2004 bike I just replaced, never failed. Always smooth reliable shifting.


Interestingly, the two bikes I put the most miles on (road bike turned commuter with Tiagra) and ride in the roughest conditions (cross bike with 105) have the lowest level groupsets and I've not had a failure with either.

It is my experience that the reliability issues with the lower level groupsets are grossly overstated.

Shane
2013-11-08 3:15 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Originally posted by Porfirio

Off another thread, folks overwhelmingly suggest upgrading to Ultegra & not DA. Assuming the bike had an older group or a Tiagra set-up... why not "upgrade" to 105? I guess I don't understand the agmt that the extra $ for DA is not worth it but the extra $ for Ultegra is. Am I missing something?




I have actually replaced an older Ultegra drivetrain with a new 105 set on one bike, and build my other bike up from scratch with 105 everything except the bar end shifters. I find the derailleurs to be significantly less finicky to set up with 105. that said, once it's set, it's set, and I never touch it again. I have much love for 105.
2013-11-08 3:30 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by Porfirio Off another thread, folks overwhelmingly suggest upgrading to Ultegra & not DA. Assuming the bike had an older group or a Tiagra set-up... why not "upgrade" to 105? I guess I don't understand the agmt that the extra $ for DA is not worth it but the extra $ for Ultegra is. Am I missing something?
I have actually replaced an older Ultegra drivetrain with a new 105 set on one bike, and build my other bike up from scratch with 105 everything except the bar end shifters. I find the derailleurs to be significantly less finicky to set up with 105. that said, once it's set, it's set, and I never touch it again. I have much love for 105.

The difference in the rear derailleur from 5700 and 6700 (105 and Ultegra) is as follows.

Upper pulley: Ultegra uses the very durable ceramic bushing, 105 uses steel.
Supposedly the ceramic lasts longer and works better.

Lower pulley: Ultegra uses a sealed cartridge bearing, 105 uses a steel bushing.
Whenever possible, you want a bearing rather than a bushing. Less energy loss, more durability.

Parallelogram: Ultegra has two forged aluminum links with brass bushings, 105 uses a stamped-steel rear link.
Forged links are more durable than stamped links, and the aluminum is lighter than the steel. 


Pulley cage: Ultegra uses aluminum inner and outer plates. 105 uses a steel rear plate.
I think basically the ultegra cage can be taken apart, not sure if it matters.

I think these are really the biggest differences. Do they matter? I guess that is up to you. 

 

 

2013-11-08 4:08 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Great help so far from others. I find there are about three groups of riders. One is really frugal and takes a lot of pride in riding on the most affordable equipment. The second group wants top of the line and feels more confident when they know they have the best available. The final group does the research and buys based careful study of the product as well as their needs. They may buy top of line for one part and buy basic for another.

I tend to fall in the frugal side but do try to make educated purchases without falling head over heals for marketing hype.

However, just for full disclosure, if I could afford it, I would be a total label .
2013-11-08 5:29 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

I buy mostly on price point and DA is usually out as it is to expensive. Depending on the bike, which groups are available and at what cost. Often 105 isn't an option on the bikes I buy so I get Ultegra.

On my cross bike I had built up I put 105 on it .

I agree that with another poster that the price difference between 105 and Ultegra is much smaller then Ultegra and DA.



2013-11-08 5:40 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
I love 105. Tough, durable, cheap. I like Ultegra and Dura-ace also when I want frosting on the cake.
2013-11-08 5:48 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

Originally posted by dmiller5

The difference in the rear derailleur from 5700 and 6700 (105 and Ultegra) is as follows.

Upper pulley: Ultegra uses the very durable ceramic bushing, 105 uses steel.
Supposedly the ceramic lasts longer and works better.

Lower pulley: Ultegra uses a sealed cartridge bearing, 105 uses a steel bushing.
Whenever possible, you want a bearing rather than a bushing. Less energy loss, more durability.

Parallelogram: Ultegra has two forged aluminum links with brass bushings, 105 uses a stamped-steel rear link.
Forged links are more durable than stamped links, and the aluminum is lighter than the steel. 


Pulley cage: Ultegra uses aluminum inner and outer plates. 105 uses a steel rear plate.
I think basically the ultegra cage can be taken apart, not sure if it matters.

I think these are really the biggest differences. Do they matter? I guess that is up to you. 

 

cool list.  I read on another forum that a DA rear derailleur has a 1 watt savings over an Ultegra RD due to the pulleys.  not sure what the design reason is.

So, that's about $100/watt.  seems fair.  

2013-11-08 6:20 PM
in reply to: Porfirio


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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
Plenty of love for 105 here and elsewhere. It's really all you need.

Heck, even Sora works fine for triathlon.
2013-11-08 6:28 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

We have a Specialized Allez with tiagra.....we ride it whenever the weather is bad, etc.  I've had it for 5 years..........no problems.  Our race bikes all have Ultegra, but I wouldn't have any problem racing the Specialized if that was all I had.  Keep it clean and adjusted......it works great.

2013-11-08 7:04 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
105 Shifters are not as good as Ultegra. Other than that the only real difference is weight.


2013-11-08 7:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?
105 Shifters are not as good as Ultegra. Other than that the only real difference is weight.
2013-11-08 9:26 PM
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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

Originally posted by guppie58 105 Shifters are not as good as Ultegra. Other than that the only real difference is weight.

It's hard to quantify "not as good".  There are many differences between 105 and Ultegra besides weight.....see DMiller's post above.  If you want real weight differences, that comes with Dura Ace.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-11-08 9:27 PM
2013-11-09 7:07 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: No love for Shimano 105?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by guppie58 105 Shifters are not as good as Ultegra. Other than that the only real difference is weight.

It's hard to quantify "not as good".  There are many differences between 105 and Ultegra besides weight.....see DMiller's post above.  If you want real weight differences, that comes with Dura Ace.

My road bike has Sora shifters, 105 crank with a Suntour (I think) left crank arm.  105 FD, 105 RD (both of unknown vintage) and a mountain bike rear cassette from 1996.  The newest part is the SRAM chain.

Never misses a shift. Smooth as silk.  And I usually didn't have trouble keeping up with my buddy on his Madone/Ultegra.   I really wish I had a compact crank, though!  (The MTB cassette was an attempt to correct for the 53/42 crank that came on the bike!)

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