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2013-11-12 10:23 AM

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Subject: Fast Marathon on tri training?
I'd like to run an open marathon in the spring, but my legs hate marathon mileage. I ran XC in college and got seriously hurt and since then they really just dont like the pounding. I'm trying to decided if I can realistically run a decent marathon off of 3 days a week of running with obviously plenty of swimming and biking in there as well.

Anyone have any experience with this? I'd like to keep mileage down to ~30mpw and do most of my intertval work on the bike. I've run a 1:22 HM, so I'm a decent runner, i'm just trying to do a marathon sans injury.


2013-11-12 10:46 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

I ran my marathon PR after doing nothing but 70.3 training for about 7 months, although I did have a decent marathon base over the previous years.

My general time line looked like this.  Mar: ran a marathon, Mar-July: 70.3 training (long run of about 15 miles), July-Sept: Oly training (long run of about 10 miles, but lots of intensity), Sept-Nov: ramp up volume doing a couple 18-20 milers for an early Nov marathon.

2013-11-12 10:55 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I'd like to run an open marathon in the spring, but my legs hate marathon mileage. I ran XC in college and got seriously hurt and since then they really just dont like the pounding. I'm trying to decided if I can realistically run a decent marathon off of 3 days a week of running with obviously plenty of swimming and biking in there as well. Anyone have any experience with this? I'd like to keep mileage down to ~30mpw and do most of my intertval work on the bike. I've run a 1:22 HM, so I'm a decent runner, i'm just trying to do a marathon sans injury.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster unless you have some huge running base.  What has your mileage been up until now?  What's your purpose for even running a marathon and where's your priorities lie?  

2013-11-12 11:03 AM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I'd like to run an open marathon in the spring, but my legs hate marathon mileage. I ran XC in college and got seriously hurt and since then they really just dont like the pounding. I'm trying to decided if I can realistically run a decent marathon off of 3 days a week of running with obviously plenty of swimming and biking in there as well. Anyone have any experience with this? I'd like to keep mileage down to ~30mpw and do most of my intertval work on the bike. I've run a 1:22 HM, so I'm a decent runner, i'm just trying to do a marathon sans injury.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster unless you have some huge running base.  What has your mileage been up until now?  What's your purpose for even running a marathon and where's your priorities lie?  

I agree to a degree.  Working on a few assumptions... the OP is running HM in 1:22 so there has got to be a pretty solid base there, 1:22 is no Sunday jogger time in the half.  That said, I think that finishing a full on an average of 30 mpw is doable.  Granted, I'd think that there would be a few longer weeks in there just to support some 18-20 milers, but easy running is the key.  I wouldn't suggest that I'd expect a sub-3 time, but getting though the distance injury free and in a respectable time is doable (IMHO).

2013-11-12 11:12 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest


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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
I ran my first marathon last December and I only ran 3-4 times a week and biked 1-2 times. I did a long run, a recovery run (maybe 2 rec runs), and an interval run. My time was 4:18 and I wasn't even that sore the next day. I have tried to run marathons for several years, but I kept getting hurt and burned out, the cross training definitely helped me!
2013-11-12 11:30 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

I signed up for Boston and IM Lake Placid this year. I would never do that again. I peaked at 45mpw but I never felt like I trained well for the run, and I pulled a hamstring around mile 14 of Boston. I ran 4:08, thought I'd run around 3:30, but I walked a lot of the second half of the race.

I never really healed, and did a HIM 3 weeks later that was pure torture. Didn't do LP. My lessons were:

1. At 51 I'm not going to recover like I used to.

2. Train properly. I didn't and I'm pretty sure that made me injury prone.

3. Either do a late fall marathon after the Ironman, or vice versa. Don't stack too many long course events that close together.



2013-11-12 11:50 AM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
I'm doing IMCHOO but not until late September, so the marathon and IM are pretty far apart. I have no desire to go out and try to run sub 3:00 on 30mpw, i'm a realistic person. Honestly I just love running and want to get in a spring full. My expectations would be to cruise like a 3:20-3:30. I know i can run that kind of pace without doing serious speedwork and risking getting hurt.

I know it wont be a marathon I'd be ready to run fast at, I really just want to go out and enjoy the day. I think that's feasible on 30mpw plus tri training.
2013-11-12 12:15 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I'm doing IMCHOO but not until late September, so the marathon and IM are pretty far apart. I have no desire to go out and try to run sub 3:00 on 30mpw, i'm a realistic person. Honestly I just love running and want to get in a spring full. My expectations would be to cruise like a 3:20-3:30. I know i can run that kind of pace without doing serious speedwork and risking getting hurt. I know it wont be a marathon I'd be ready to run fast at, I really just want to go out and enjoy the day. I think that's feasible on 30mpw plus tri training.

Ahhh... perspective!  I'm jesting of course, but it is funny how one person's "easy day" is another person's "blistering speed"!

I'd think that with running ~ 6:15 for a half, you should surely be able to manage a ~8:00 for a full with just some increased volume.

2013-11-12 12:29 PM
in reply to: Sous

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

Originally posted by Sous

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I'm doing IMCHOO but not until late September, so the marathon and IM are pretty far apart. I have no desire to go out and try to run sub 3:00 on 30mpw, i'm a realistic person. Honestly I just love running and want to get in a spring full. My expectations would be to cruise like a 3:20-3:30. I know i can run that kind of pace without doing serious speedwork and risking getting hurt. I know it wont be a marathon I'd be ready to run fast at, I really just want to go out and enjoy the day. I think that's feasible on 30mpw plus tri training.

Ahhh... perspective!  I'm jesting of course, but it is funny how one person's "easy day" is another person's "blistering speed"!

I'd think that with running ~ 6:15 for a half, you should surely be able to manage a ~8:00 for a full with just some increased volume.

 

Yep, completely changes everything.  I think given your HM time and your approach to an easy, fun, slow (relative to the OP) marathon then yes, you can certainly do it then.  Just don't try and race it

2013-11-12 1:49 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by Sous

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I'm doing IMCHOO but not until late September, so the marathon and IM are pretty far apart. I have no desire to go out and try to run sub 3:00 on 30mpw, i'm a realistic person. Honestly I just love running and want to get in a spring full. My expectations would be to cruise like a 3:20-3:30. I know i can run that kind of pace without doing serious speedwork and risking getting hurt. I know it wont be a marathon I'd be ready to run fast at, I really just want to go out and enjoy the day. I think that's feasible on 30mpw plus tri training.

Ahhh... perspective!  I'm jesting of course, but it is funny how one person's "easy day" is another person's "blistering speed"!

I'd think that with running ~ 6:15 for a half, you should surely be able to manage a ~8:00 for a full with just some increased volume.

 

Yep, completely changes everything.  I think given your HM time and your approach to an easy, fun, slow (relative to the OP) marathon then yes, you can certainly do it then.  Just don't try and race it




^^^ just dont try and race it, therein lies the problem. haha
2013-11-12 2:21 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
I think I am in a similar situation. I ran a 1:21 HM in March and did a 3:03 in July with about 30-35MPW.
The last 10k was terrible and is certainly due to a lack of training mile.
I will actually ramp up my running for Boston. Honestly, I don't see myself doing more than 40MPW consistently, but will still shoot for sub-3.

If you want to hold back out of fear for injury...solid choice. But if you want to actually race it, start conservative, perhaps 7:15. If you feel great at the mid point, push it a bit. If you still feel good at mile 20 (congrats!) then go for it.


2013-11-12 3:07 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest


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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
High level triathletes can run extremely close to their standalone HM times in pure running races.

They typically are off their equivalent "Mcmillan" estimate time by a fair amount, though. Don't underestimate the marathon - it's a bear - even if you can hammer a half in 1:22, if you don't put in the right training miles, you won't come close to your 'potential' as guesstimates by the aggressive Mcmillan calculator. The marathon really punishes lack of leg endurance - you can be a rock star for 23 miles, but it's all for naught if you walk the last 3 (extremely common.)

I do agree above though, if you're running a 1:22 half, a 3:30 should be eminently doable for you even on lower volume (<35mpw) training. Just prepare for serious postrace hurt if you go that route.
2013-11-12 4:37 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?

I have been following the Furman Institute (FIRST) plan for a couple years now and have PR'd at literally every distance I've run, all the way up to marathon. I wanted to do it because I love running and wanted to get faster, but I also wanted to have time for tri training.

Three days of running per week with cross training the other three days, one rest day.

Run #1: Interval workout, work up to about 5k total of "fast" intervals

Run #2: Tempo run, anything from 3 to 10 miles

Run #3: Long run, run at significantly faster than most other plans say you should run your long run at (usually MP + :30 - :45 per mile)

Cross train: Hard.

Full disclosure: I'm not a super fast runner to begin with (marathon PR: 3:33:49, HM PR: 1:37:28) and I may have peaked in as far as this training plan can take me and am looking at a more traditional high volume plan for my next marathon, BUT -- yes, you can do it. It can take a toll on your body, so proceed with caution, but I liked it -- it did the job.

This is the basic plan I found years ago on Runner's World, but there's a more detailed one on the FIRST site, I think:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/less-more-marathon-plan?page=single

2013-11-13 10:12 AM
in reply to: swishyskirt

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
Originally posted by swishyskirt

I have been following the Furman Institute (FIRST) plan for a couple years now and have PR'd at literally every distance I've run, all the way up to marathon. I wanted to do it because I love running and wanted to get faster, but I also wanted to have time for tri training.

Three days of running per week with cross training the other three days, one rest day.

Run #1: Interval workout, work up to about 5k total of "fast" intervals

Run #2: Tempo run, anything from 3 to 10 miles

Run #3: Long run, run at significantly faster than most other plans say you should run your long run at (usually MP + :30 - :45 per mile)

Cross train: Hard.

Full disclosure: I'm not a super fast runner to begin with (marathon PR: 3:33:49, HM PR: 1:37:28) and I may have peaked in as far as this training plan can take me and am looking at a more traditional high volume plan for my next marathon, BUT -- yes, you can do it. It can take a toll on your body, so proceed with caution, but I liked it -- it did the job.

This is the basic plan I found years ago on Runner's World, but there's a more detailed one on the FIRST site, I think:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/less-more-marathon-plan?page=single




just did some research into this and it looks perfect for me. thanks so much for the link!
2013-11-13 10:58 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
I did a better marathon after my 70.3 training than I did after my marathon training. There were lots of factors of course, but still
2013-11-13 2:14 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest


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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
It depends what your goals are. Do you just want to finish? Then yes, you can easily complete a marathon on 3x a week of running. My first experience in endurance sports was training for a marathon and I had a solid base of 3 miles. We trained 3 days a week, and we probably maxed out at 35ish by the peak weeks.

Given the fact that you obviously have a very solid base evidenced by your HM time, you can easily finish with minimal training. If you're trying to break 3 hours, no, that won't happen. Sounds like you just want to go out and run a marathon, you'll be able to do it on 3x a week.

I'm not sure why so many are saying it's not possible when you typically run 3x a week for IM training with a max run of 18 miles and 30 mpw(give or take based on your speed).


2013-11-13 4:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
In my experience I've never been able to progress with any sort of speed or efficiency unless I'm running at least five times per week. Six is better. I love doing triathlon but I know the swimming and cycling holds back my running performance. At least at the level I'm at now.

The FIRST plan might be good for some, but the intensities are much too high for me; I get injured unless I keep the intense running a very low percentage of my overall running.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2013-11-13 4:30 PM
2013-11-13 4:58 PM
in reply to: TriDadinAsheville


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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville

It depends what your goals are. Do you just want to finish? Then yes, you can easily complete a marathon on 3x a week of running. My first experience in endurance sports was training for a marathon and I had a solid base of 3 miles. We trained 3 days a week, and we probably maxed out at 35ish by the peak weeks.

Given the fact that you obviously have a very solid base evidenced by your HM time, you can easily finish with minimal training. If you're trying to break 3 hours, no, that won't happen. Sounds like you just want to go out and run a marathon, you'll be able to do it on 3x a week.

I'm not sure why so many are saying it's not possible when you typically run 3x a week for IM training with a max run of 18 miles and 30 mpw(give or take based on your speed).


The key distinction is OP's title thread said "FAST marathon."

Granted, he then changed his tune to a not-so-fast-for-him (3:30 is still fast for most!) marathon, but if you're a 1:22 HM runner, your typical marathon time is sub-3 if you're running near potential. (As per Mcmillan.)

For those who are PRing their marathon on triathlon training, I can guarantee they aren't comparing to a training block as a pure runner where they'll would log up to 70mpw or more as a pure marathon runner. In half marathons, you can get really close to your open HM with tri training, but it doesn't pan out like that for the marathon.

2013-11-13 8:01 PM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
2013-11-13 9:11 PM
in reply to: tedjohn


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Subject: RE: Fast Marathon on tri training?
On 30 mpw, you just won't have the muscular endurance. Us triathletes have all the endurance base in the world, but when you get beyond mile 21, that doesn't mean much. You're going to suffer. Taking it slow and not racing aggressively will help a lot, but if I had to guess, that last 6-8k is going to be real ugly. Doable, but ugly. If you can get it up to 40 mpw, I think your looking a lot better. I did my last marathon on mid 40 peak mpw and was able to push through fairly well at the end.

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