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2013-11-20 4:10 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!

Originally posted by yazmaster
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by cartman1966
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest Dont forget about Trainerroad either. awesome website. You can train with virtual power for the $59 worth of equipment you need and a $10/month fee. You can use an HDMI/Apple TV to pull up the power on your TV and you can have it horizantal along the bottom while you watch whatever you want on the computer. plus it comes with training plans and a boatload of workouts. it makes riding the trainer FAR more bearable and productive.

I've been considering Trainerroad and wondered about hardware.  What would be the ideal setup?  With Xmas coming I have to put a list together.

I assume you have a trainer? You just need an ANT+ stick and a cadence/speed sensor. And a large fan and plenty of towels. I use a laptop right near my bike and then have my TV tuned to whatever I feel like watching. I have seen some neat setups where people have side-by-side 40" flat screens; one running TR, the other as a TV. TR is the best money I spend on training. Once you do your FTP test, the workouts appear in a nice GUI. It holds you "accountable" in that your pwoer targets for the workout are displayed and at the end of each interval, a quick summary appears on how close to target your were and how consistent you held that power. There are alos videos you can buy that match workouts, such as Sufferfest. Nate from TR is on BT and is pretty good about responding to TR threads. I have been using TR for almost three years now (beta tester) and it has imporved my cycling immensly. I actually look forward to going to the basement for pain.

I have a Cycleops Fluid 2.  From what I could gather on the TR website, they can approximate your power based on your particular trainer but was wondering about getting a Powertap.  I'm assuming that would be much more accurate.  I guess you'd still need a cadence/speed sensor?  What about display for power output, etc.?  That would just be on a laptop? 

I have a Cycleops FLuid2. I also purchased a powertap after enjoying virtualpower. Unfortunately, virtualpower does NOT match closely with powertap power per the power curve used by TR. Mine was off by over 70 watts (Fluid 2 virtual power was 70watts higher than powertap.) On the bright side, the Fluid2 is extremely precise. The readings between workouts for a given powertap power were precise down to the 0.1mph with a speed sensor, meaning that using virtualpower was every bit as good as using realpower for TR training. In fact, my indoor training hasn't changed one bit since I got the powertap on trainerroad - just gives me numbers that I can correlate to outdoor racing/riding (which is very helpful.) As long as you're going all out on that FTP test, it doesn't matter what number the virtualpower is - it'll be ok for power-based training with the Fluid2.

I was wondering about the accuracy of TrainerRoad and the beta formula for the Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer.  I don't have a powertap to be able to test it, but I had read a few experiences where it was the other way around and that TrainerRoad under-estimated power (at least at the harder efforts).

Anyone else with a powertap have the same experience as yazmaster?

 



2013-11-20 4:19 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by axteraa

A Powertap will give you speed and cadence on the trainer on it's own without a separate sensor.

Sorry for the dumb questions but does the powertap transmit the data directly to the laptop or would you still need an ANT+ stick?  Also, how does the powertap give you cadence?  With the powertap, if I'm riding on the road, will it synch up to my 910xt so I could use that to read my data?

If you want to use Trainerroad, you need the ANT+ stick as it is the receiver for the signal from the PT (and/or speed/cadence sensor).

I'm not sure how exactly the PT does cadence, I suspect its a calculation of some sort.  Your 910 will get the data from a PT, assuming it's not an older model that isn't ANT+.

2013-11-20 4:23 PM
in reply to: Scott71

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Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!

Originally posted by Scott71

I was wondering about the accuracy of TrainerRoad and the beta formula for the Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer.  I don't have a powertap to be able to test it, but I had read a few experiences where it was the other way around and that TrainerRoad under-estimated power (at least at the harder efforts).

Anyone else with a powertap have the same experience as yazmaster?

 

I've never compared directly but I see significant differences in the "speed" of my workouts with my PT depending on a few factors like tire pressure and how much pressure is put on the wheel from the roller.  The biggest thing I have noticed though it what tire I have on the wheel.  An old training tire is slower than a good tire like a GP4000s (I know - dumb to use on the trainer but I am lazy sometimes...).  Since TR is estimating power from speed, simply changing the tire could have a big effect on the power numbers reported.

2013-11-20 4:40 PM
in reply to: Scott71


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Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!
Originally posted by Scott71

Originally posted by yazmaster
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by cartman1966
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest Dont forget about Trainerroad either. awesome website. You can train with virtual power for the $59 worth of equipment you need and a $10/month fee. You can use an HDMI/Apple TV to pull up the power on your TV and you can have it horizantal along the bottom while you watch whatever you want on the computer. plus it comes with training plans and a boatload of workouts. it makes riding the trainer FAR more bearable and productive.

I've been considering Trainerroad and wondered about hardware.  What would be the ideal setup?  With Xmas coming I have to put a list together.

I assume you have a trainer? You just need an ANT+ stick and a cadence/speed sensor. And a large fan and plenty of towels. I use a laptop right near my bike and then have my TV tuned to whatever I feel like watching. I have seen some neat setups where people have side-by-side 40" flat screens; one running TR, the other as a TV. TR is the best money I spend on training. Once you do your FTP test, the workouts appear in a nice GUI. It holds you "accountable" in that your pwoer targets for the workout are displayed and at the end of each interval, a quick summary appears on how close to target your were and how consistent you held that power. There are alos videos you can buy that match workouts, such as Sufferfest. Nate from TR is on BT and is pretty good about responding to TR threads. I have been using TR for almost three years now (beta tester) and it has imporved my cycling immensly. I actually look forward to going to the basement for pain.

I have a Cycleops Fluid 2.  From what I could gather on the TR website, they can approximate your power based on your particular trainer but was wondering about getting a Powertap.  I'm assuming that would be much more accurate.  I guess you'd still need a cadence/speed sensor?  What about display for power output, etc.?  That would just be on a laptop? 

I have a Cycleops FLuid2. I also purchased a powertap after enjoying virtualpower. Unfortunately, virtualpower does NOT match closely with powertap power per the power curve used by TR. Mine was off by over 70 watts (Fluid 2 virtual power was 70watts higher than powertap.) On the bright side, the Fluid2 is extremely precise. The readings between workouts for a given powertap power were precise down to the 0.1mph with a speed sensor, meaning that using virtualpower was every bit as good as using realpower for TR training. In fact, my indoor training hasn't changed one bit since I got the powertap on trainerroad - just gives me numbers that I can correlate to outdoor racing/riding (which is very helpful.) As long as you're going all out on that FTP test, it doesn't matter what number the virtualpower is - it'll be ok for power-based training with the Fluid2.

I was wondering about the accuracy of TrainerRoad and the beta formula for the Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer.  I don't have a powertap to be able to test it, but I had read a few experiences where it was the other way around and that TrainerRoad under-estimated power (at least at the harder efforts).

Anyone else with a powertap have the same experience as yazmaster?

 




Ive been following TR users with FLuid2 on various forums (Here included) since day one of TR launch.

Reality is that there is significant variability between units with reagrds to the Fluid2. Some units will read higher and some will read lower than a powertap. (I've seen more reports of higher than lower, but I don't have hard numbers to prove it - just my memory.) I think the power curve formula TR uses is generous for Fluid2.

Anyway, the takehome is that all bets are off with regards to your actual power on a Fluid if going by virtualpower until you can compare it to a powertap on YOUR unit.

You get get a rough estimate to see if your Fluid2 virtualpower is wildly off reality as well by comparing your most recent TT result to the following power guidelines on this website:
http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/CyclingPowerOutput.aspx

If your virtualpower is reading an FTP of 300 watts, but your Oly 40k TT is 1:10, odds are high that your virtualpower is too optimistic.
2013-11-20 7:05 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by Scott71

Originally posted by yazmaster
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by cartman1966
Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest Dont forget about Trainerroad either. awesome website. You can train with virtual power for the $59 worth of equipment you need and a $10/month fee. You can use an HDMI/Apple TV to pull up the power on your TV and you can have it horizantal along the bottom while you watch whatever you want on the computer. plus it comes with training plans and a boatload of workouts. it makes riding the trainer FAR more bearable and productive.

I've been considering Trainerroad and wondered about hardware.  What would be the ideal setup?  With Xmas coming I have to put a list together.

I assume you have a trainer? You just need an ANT+ stick and a cadence/speed sensor. And a large fan and plenty of towels. I use a laptop right near my bike and then have my TV tuned to whatever I feel like watching. I have seen some neat setups where people have side-by-side 40" flat screens; one running TR, the other as a TV. TR is the best money I spend on training. Once you do your FTP test, the workouts appear in a nice GUI. It holds you "accountable" in that your pwoer targets for the workout are displayed and at the end of each interval, a quick summary appears on how close to target your were and how consistent you held that power. There are alos videos you can buy that match workouts, such as Sufferfest. Nate from TR is on BT and is pretty good about responding to TR threads. I have been using TR for almost three years now (beta tester) and it has imporved my cycling immensly. I actually look forward to going to the basement for pain.

I have a Cycleops Fluid 2.  From what I could gather on the TR website, they can approximate your power based on your particular trainer but was wondering about getting a Powertap.  I'm assuming that would be much more accurate.  I guess you'd still need a cadence/speed sensor?  What about display for power output, etc.?  That would just be on a laptop? 

I have a Cycleops FLuid2. I also purchased a powertap after enjoying virtualpower. Unfortunately, virtualpower does NOT match closely with powertap power per the power curve used by TR. Mine was off by over 70 watts (Fluid 2 virtual power was 70watts higher than powertap.) On the bright side, the Fluid2 is extremely precise. The readings between workouts for a given powertap power were precise down to the 0.1mph with a speed sensor, meaning that using virtualpower was every bit as good as using realpower for TR training. In fact, my indoor training hasn't changed one bit since I got the powertap on trainerroad - just gives me numbers that I can correlate to outdoor racing/riding (which is very helpful.) As long as you're going all out on that FTP test, it doesn't matter what number the virtualpower is - it'll be ok for power-based training with the Fluid2.

I was wondering about the accuracy of TrainerRoad and the beta formula for the Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer.  I don't have a powertap to be able to test it, but I had read a few experiences where it was the other way around and that TrainerRoad under-estimated power (at least at the harder efforts).

Anyone else with a powertap have the same experience as yazmaster?

 




Ive been following TR users with FLuid2 on various forums (Here included) since day one of TR launch.

Reality is that there is significant variability between units with reagrds to the Fluid2. Some units will read higher and some will read lower than a powertap. (I've seen more reports of higher than lower, but I don't have hard numbers to prove it - just my memory.) I think the power curve formula TR uses is generous for Fluid2.

Anyway, the takehome is that all bets are off with regards to your actual power on a Fluid if going by virtualpower until you can compare it to a powertap on YOUR unit.

You get get a rough estimate to see if your Fluid2 virtualpower is wildly off reality as well by comparing your most recent TT result to the following power guidelines on this website:
http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/CyclingPowerOutput.aspx

If your virtualpower is reading an FTP of 300 watts, but your Oly 40k TT is 1:10, odds are high that your virtualpower is too optimistic.



I agree, having said that, TR is still an incredible training tool. If you have a power tap it may be excessive but for those of us who don't want to spend the money, it works fine. Keep in mind that *In most Cases* the power curve is correct on the Fluid, it's just that the FTP is not correct. if thats true, then who cares? you can still measure gains in fitness and workouts because you are only using the one variable: trainer road and a fluid2. I don't use power outside, so this works for me.

For all of you who's virtual power FTP seems high: make sure you're cranking down the tire. The suggestion on TR is 3 twists once it is touching the tire. thats ALOT. before i started using TR, i never cranked it down that much.

Consistancy is key: same tires, same tire pressure, same number of cranks.
2013-11-21 7:18 AM
in reply to: Iwannarunlikeforrest

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Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I agree, having said that, TR is still an incredible training tool. If you have a power tap it may be excessive but for those of us who don't want to spend the money, it works fine. Keep in mind that *In most Cases* the power curve is correct on the Fluid, it's just that the FTP is not correct. if thats true, then who cares? you can still measure gains in fitness and workouts because you are only using the one variable: trainer road and a fluid2. I don't use power outside, so this works for me. For all of you who's virtual power FTP seems high: make sure you're cranking down the tire. The suggestion on TR is 3 twists once it is touching the tire. thats ALOT. before i started using TR, i never cranked it down that much. Consistancy is key: same tires, same tire pressure, same number of cranks.

And doing a simple spin down check, because if you accidentally bump rear brake while setting up your bike it doesn't matter how consistent your are with the setup!

It's been stated on forums that the KK fluid trainer when warmed up should have a spin down from 20mph (to stop) of ~14 sec (13.8 to be exact) to correlate power most accurately. When cold at ~ 75F it's ~11 sec for a spin down. For my setup with a trainer tire at 110psi that's about 2.75 turns.  I haven't heard what a COF2 spin down should be since I don't have one but it should be somewhat similar.



2013-11-21 7:37 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Training with Power, I love it!
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by Iwannarunlikeforrest I agree, having said that, TR is still an incredible training tool. If you have a power tap it may be excessive but for those of us who don't want to spend the money, it works fine. Keep in mind that *In most Cases* the power curve is correct on the Fluid, it's just that the FTP is not correct. if thats true, then who cares? you can still measure gains in fitness and workouts because you are only using the one variable: trainer road and a fluid2. I don't use power outside, so this works for me. For all of you who's virtual power FTP seems high: make sure you're cranking down the tire. The suggestion on TR is 3 twists once it is touching the tire. thats ALOT. before i started using TR, i never cranked it down that much. Consistancy is key: same tires, same tire pressure, same number of cranks.

And doing a simple spin down check, because if you accidentally bump rear brake while setting up your bike it doesn't matter how consistent your are with the setup!

It's been stated on forums that the KK fluid trainer when warmed up should have a spin down from 20mph (to stop) of ~14 sec (13.8 to be exact) to correlate power most accurately. When cold at ~ 75F it's ~11 sec for a spin down. For my setup with a trainer tire at 110psi that's about 2.75 turns.  I haven't heard what a COF2 spin down should be since I don't have one but it should be somewhat similar.


The Inride on the KK has you do a spin down from 21 MPH after a 10 minute warm up and it calibrates from that spin down. So I think your suggestion for those not using the Inride is right on.

I can't speak to the "accuracy" of the KK with Inride because I don't have an actual power meter to compare with. However, it is very consistent from workout to workout and as others have said that is all that matters when just using it for trainer workouts. I have had it for 2 weeks now and I love it more each time I use it. I have about 15 Spinervals and each time I do a different one now that I'm using power I can see where I'm getting a better workout than before.

Thanks to everyone for their input on this thread. There is so much good info on training with power and I'm in that stage where I'm trying to absorb it all!
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