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2013-11-21 12:27 PM

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Subject: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

I’m going to divide the 18 weeks that I have into three 6 week blocks.  The second block will be capped with a tune-up HM then I will build to peak volume at 16 weeks followed by a two week taper.

Quality: I am kind of at the whim of our coach for quality, but he will take us through (pretty much a Daniel's cycle) where we do some form of I and Rs on our Q1 and then some form of a T for our Q2. Slowly that progresses and we do less stressing of V02 max and a lot more things geared towards T. Sometimes a week will happen where Q1 is T and Q2 is a long run with a block of M pace. Other than the M pace long runs, I generally always double up Q2 on a Saturday and the long run on a Sunday.

Long Runs: will more or less be 16, 18, 20 because that is what has worked in the past. But I am flexible on this. And don't worry. I don't get too caught up in the numbers. If I am on tough terrain I am totally alright with defaulting to time. Or if I finish at 21.87999 miles I won't flip my lid.  Also, as I mentioned above, some long runs (usually on the shorter 16 mile side) will have a block of M pace. That block gets bigger as the plan progresses. Race simulation (nutrition/clothing etc. is usually integrated in these as the race approaches.) I've gotten some feedback on maybe doing a variety of styles of long runs cycling progressive, fast finish, M pace blocks and LSD.

 Everything Else: will pretty much be easy. I try and change up the terrain and do a slower recovery type pace when needed. I'll try and do at least one of these in the 9-13 mile range.

 Mileage: will probably go from 70-80/90? Not sure yet. I think I just have to play that by ear. Open to input.

 

A typical week might look something like this:

Monday- Recovery

Tuesday-  Double (Both sessions easy)

Wednesday – Quality

Thursday- Double (first session recovery, second session medium long run)

Friday –  Double (both sessions easy)

Saturday- Quality

Sunday- Long Run

 

*A final note, most of my weekly easy mileage will be done with a backpack as I am run-commuting. The pack is generally between 6-8 lbs but sometimes more.

 

 



2013-11-21 12:43 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

What exactly Is your Monday "recovery?"

2013-11-21 12:44 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by dmiller5

What exactly Is your Monday "recovery?"

Recovery pace

2013-11-21 12:55 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

does that differ from "easy" pace?

2013-11-21 12:59 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by dmiller5

does that differ from "easy" pace?

Sometimes, yeah. I would be more diligent at keeping my easy pace within a certain range (because I can tend to run exceptionally slow when running easy) On a recovery day, I allow myself to do whatever I feel.

2013-11-21 1:01 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

I think your basic plan looks good, my only concern would be stacking that quality day and the long run. Might consider putting the 2-easy run day in between them,



2013-11-21 1:07 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by dmiller5

I think your basic plan looks good, my only concern would be stacking that quality day and the long run. Might consider putting the 2-easy run day in between them,

Our coach is a big proponent of that, actually.

I have experience doing it (did it last year on my marathon build up) and I felt was really effective. But I will say, it was the expectation that the long run was strictly easy. And on the occasion we were doing M pace blocks, we wouldn't double up and the long run would serve as the quality. 

So, that might be something to think about.

2013-11-21 1:39 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by Asalzwed

I’m going to divide the 18 weeks that I have into three 6 week blocks.  The second block will be capped with a tune-up HM then I will build to peak volume at 16 weeks followed by a two week taper.

Quality: I am kind of at the whim of our coach for quality, but he will take us through (pretty much a Daniel's cycle) where we do some form of I and Rs on our Q1 and then some form of a T for our Q2. Slowly that progresses and we do less stressing of V02 max and a lot more things geared towards T. Sometimes a week will happen where Q1 is T and Q2 is a long run with a block of M pace. Other than the M pace long runs, I generally always double up Q2 on a Saturday and the long run on a Sunday.

Long Runs: will more or less be 16, 18, 20 because that is what has worked in the past. But I am flexible on this. And don't worry. I don't get too caught up in the numbers. If I am on tough terrain I am totally alright with defaulting to time. Or if I finish at 21.87999 miles I won't flip my lid.  Also, as I mentioned above, some long runs (usually on the shorter 16 mile side) will have a block of M pace. That block gets bigger as the plan progresses. Race simulation (nutrition/clothing etc. is usually integrated in these as the race approaches.) I've gotten some feedback on maybe doing a variety of styles of long runs cycling progressive, fast finish, M pace blocks and LSD.

 Everything Else: will pretty much be easy. I try and change up the terrain and do a slower recovery type pace when needed. I'll try and do at least one of these in the 9-13 mile range.

 Mileage: will probably go from 70-80/90? Not sure yet. I think I just have to play that by ear. Open to input.

 

A typical week might look something like this:

Monday- Recovery

Tuesday-  Double (Both sessions easy)

Wednesday – Quality

Thursday- Double (first session recovery, second session medium long run)

Friday –  Double (both sessions easy)

Saturday- Quality

Sunday- Long Run

 

*A final note, most of my weekly easy mileage will be done with a backpack as I am run-commuting. The pack is generally between 6-8 lbs but sometimes more.

 

 




How can I not offer up at this? I like the plan. Your coach seems to know his stuff.

Your coach has you doing fairly standard 'high mileage' training with embedded Q sessions. LR's on Sunday after Saturday Q sessions with tempo is common and not going to break you. And, you've handled it well in the past, so no worries. And, remember to keep recovery very easy-too easy. You've got a lot of volume and a lot of quality in these blocks, but your legs have handled it in the past.

I think you will get close to a ~3hr Marathon, if you get a solid training block in with no injuries and just do the training. Ironically, running with added weight is something many do as strength training. (I have a former pt with multiple superbowl rings who used weight vests on the track during interval training yrs after he 'retired').

Your progression has been impressive in running this year. The speed block has helped you but as you know M training is a different beast. It is still important to do your coach's Q sessions, but for you getting a steady diet of medLR's with tempo and LR's with some speed will help a lot. Getting your overall mileage up into the 100's will help, if you can do it early in the block. Then back off into 90's during the second 6 weeks, followed by an appropriate taper prior to your race.

Is this targeting a Boston M again or an early May Marathon elsewhere? If it's a hilly course, and your 3:13 (vdot of 49) at Boston certainly had a few hills, then it will be more challenging to break 3hrs. I don't think you're there yet...but getting closer...

You may need a few more seasons of 90-100mpw, and you will be sub3 easily. This could be the breakout year for you, though, and I wouldn't say anything to hold you back. I think you will run 2:59-3:04.
2013-11-21 2:15 PM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Thanks Dale. HA! I'm not even thinking about times yet!

Yes, this is Boston I am talking about so it's a tough course. I'll just need to execute well.

 

I wouldn't mind building to 100 in that first 6 week block. I  should mention, I will be coming straight from XC season right into marathon training and due to time constraints I won't have any downtime in between seasons. That being said, I'll essentially come from race taper then my "A" race then straight into marathon build. Do you think in this specific case, it would be alright to built volume quickly?

 

Also, regarding that damn backpack ... You mentioned doing some tempo in the middle of my medium runs. Do you think it will be a problem doing this with my pack but maybe just adjusting my pace a little? If so, how should I go about a "fair" adjustment? 

2013-11-21 2:20 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

I'm confused....you say you already have a coach?

2013-11-21 2:22 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by Birkierunner

I'm confused....you say you already have a coach?

I run with a club. Our club has a coach that runs 2 workouts a week. 



2013-11-21 4:03 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed


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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Looks great. Nice balance of workouts, and you could probably judge what volume you can handle best.


Additional things I would consider outside of the actual schedule of workouts and volume:

Some form of strength program. Core, and perhaps hill sprints or traditional resistance training in the gym.

Work on flexibility. This is something that I am looking into now.

Nutrition during training. Not sure for you, but I went into my last race probably 10 pounds over what I could have been. I would try to hit my next race at a goal weight. Again that's just me, but in addition to getting to "race weight" I would focus on post training recovery, and good fueling practices between workouts.

I would do most of my mid long and long runs on a route with similar terrain/elevation change to the course.



2013-11-21 5:12 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by ImSore Looks great. Nice balance of workouts, and you could probably judge what volume you can handle best. Additional things I would consider outside of the actual schedule of workouts and volume: Some form of strength program. Core, and perhaps hill sprints or traditional resistance training in the gym. Work on flexibility. This is something that I am looking into now. Nutrition during training. Not sure for you, but I went into my last race probably 10 pounds over what I could have been. I would try to hit my next race at a goal weight. Again that's just me, but in addition to getting to "race weight" I would focus on post training recovery, and good fueling practices between workouts. I would do most of my mid long and long runs on a route with similar terrain/elevation change to the course.

I do already do a strength program. It's a series of compound exercises. I also do preventative self massage (and sometimes see a therapist.)

I'm on the fence about flexibility. I haven't really read anything that had convinced me to start stretching other than some dynamic stuff I do before my quality workouts. What do you do?

I'm already 3 or 4 pounds lighter than I was for my last marathon so I will probably just let that happen naturally.

 

Those are great comments though. I forgot to mention that.



Edited by Asalzwed 2013-11-21 5:22 PM
2013-11-21 7:11 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed


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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by ImSore Looks great. Nice balance of workouts, and you could probably judge what volume you can handle best. Additional things I would consider outside of the actual schedule of workouts and volume: Some form of strength program. Core, and perhaps hill sprints or traditional resistance training in the gym. Work on flexibility. This is something that I am looking into now. Nutrition during training. Not sure for you, but I went into my last race probably 10 pounds over what I could have been. I would try to hit my next race at a goal weight. Again that's just me, but in addition to getting to "race weight" I would focus on post training recovery, and good fueling practices between workouts. I would do most of my mid long and long runs on a route with similar terrain/elevation change to the course.

I do already do a strength program. It's a series of compound exercises. I also do preventative self massage (and sometimes see a therapist.)

I'm on the fence about flexibility. I haven't really read anything that had convinced me to start stretching other than some dynamic stuff I do before my quality workouts. What do you do?

I'm already 3 or 4 pounds lighter than I was for my last marathon so I will probably just let that happen naturally.

 

Those are great comments though. I forgot to mention that.




I haven't been doing anything, but I want to start.

Intuitively and by what I've read, tight muscles and tendons can limit stride length, and thereby limit speed. Also, they are more prone to injury.

I've looked at yoga, but I don't have the patience/personality for that. Lately, I've considered putting together a routine of dynamic stretches combined with form drills. I am inspired by the African runners, and their routines. High knees, butt kicks, skips, kickouts, some lateral movement, not really sure on the details yet, its just something I was considering starting. I figured I would add the routine when I was nice and warmed up, I already do strides, so I figure I can add it in on those days, or after a warm up before I run my tempo pace.
2013-11-21 8:09 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Thanks Dale. HA! I'm not even thinking about times yet!




I want to see you do the best you can, but shouldn't you have a goal before you have a plan?
2013-11-21 10:23 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
I think the basic plan looks good but....that is a lot of mileage, even for someone aiming to break 3 hours. Personally, I think as long as the long runs and quality (particularly longer tempo runs or tempo runs within the long run) are there, consistently hitting 70-75 is enough and carries less risk of injury than many weeks at 90-100 mpw, for most women runners below the elite level. I would take a look at the Monday recovery day and maybe one of the double easies and think about whether the time might be better used for rest. Mileage for the sake of mileage isn't necessarily useful once one gets to a certain level of it; sometimes rest is more useful.

Speaking from experience, which I think you know. My PB is 2:43 on a hot, hilly course; judging from the women I finished near, probably would have been just under 2:40 with a flat course/cooler day/ better paced race. While I did have a few weeks in the 90-100 range, I don't think I was averaging much more than 70-80 mpw. And I'm not a "speed" runner. My strength was my ability to hold a steady pace for a long time, and not fade at the end. I think my coach (who had coached lots of elite marathoners and other distance runners, and worked with some of the African runners and their coaches) held me back a bit on mileage due to my young age (I was 17 when I qualified with a 2:44, 18 when I raced Trials), but some of the other female runners who were close to my speed did even less mileage.

We didn't do strength training per se, but we had one session a week (only the elite and sub-elite runners) where we worked with a trainer and the coach on core strength, stride drills, and some weird yoga poses and (I remember these really clearly) wall sits, which were supposed to help make our strides more efficient and fluid. Also some running on sand dunes. I did a lot of my long and tempo runs on hills as well. I think the rationale was to build strength for the hilly Trials course, as well as maximize the effectiveness of the relatively low mileage I was doing.

Best of luck--you obviously have the dedication to go far (I think I know what your REAL goal is LOL). But be sensible and stay healthy.


2013-11-22 10:03 AM
in reply to: ImSore

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
"Intuitively and by what I've read, tight muscles and tendons can limit stride length, and thereby limit speed. Also, they are more prone to injury."


I think that a lot of data out there now suggests that tight muscles have more elastic recoil and actually make you faster. Prone to injury? Maybe but I'm not sure I am willing to concede that either.

To the OP. Plan looks good to me. Volume. Some speed. Get to the start line healthy. Sounds like a good recipe. Wish I were running Boston with you this year. It is going to be an EVENT!
2013-11-22 10:33 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster


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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by wannabefaster

"Intuitively and by what I've read, tight muscles and tendons can limit stride length, and thereby limit speed. Also, they are more prone to injury."


I think that a lot of data out there now suggests that tight muscles have more elastic recoil and actually make you faster. Prone to injury? Maybe but I'm not sure I am willing to concede that either.

To the OP. Plan looks good to me. Volume. Some speed. Get to the start line healthy. Sounds like a good recipe. Wish I were running Boston with you this year. It is going to be an EVENT!



Perhaps, tightness is not the right word. What I believe can be beneficial to a training program is specific running drills to increase range of motion. And drills not only increase range of motion, but the plyometric nature of some drills may also have an impact on power. I will concede though, that I am in no way a coach, but merely basing my suggestion on books, articles, and routines of more successful runners.

I agree its all pretty controversial when it comes to flexibility, so I will rescind my original suggestion, and rephrase it.

"You may consider working on flexibility, despite its controversial nature, in the form of adding specific running drills, that may increase range of motion and power, and may also aid in injury prevention."
2013-11-22 11:42 AM
in reply to: KIELBASA

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by KIELBASA
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Thanks Dale. HA! I'm not even thinking about times yet!

I want to see you do the best you can, but shouldn't you have a goal before you have a plan?
My goal is to continue to run faster, stronger are more intelligently while remaining injury free. Specific time goals aren't really the center of my focus but once I get into my training and execute some key workouts and tune up races to get a ballpark of my goal pace for that specific race. While I can take an educated guess at what my estimated finish time will be now, it would just be a guess and I don't think that would be helpful for a whole lot. There are a ton of variables that are out of my control.
2013-11-22 11:48 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by Hot RunnerI think the basic plan looks good but....that is a lot of mileage, even for someone aiming to break 3 hours. Personally, I think as long as the long runs and quality (particularly longer tempo runs or tempo runs within the long run) are there, consistently hitting 70-75 is enough and carries less risk of injury than many weeks at 90-100 mpw, for most women runners below the elite level. I would take a look at the Monday recovery day and maybe one of the double easies and think about whether the time might be better used for rest. Mileage for the sake of mileage isn't necessarily useful once one gets to a certain level of it; sometimes rest is more useful.Speaking from experience, which I think you know. My PB is 2:43 on a hot, hilly course; judging from the women I finished near, probably would have been just under 2:40 with a flat course/cooler day/ better paced race. While I did have a few weeks in the 90-100 range, I don't think I was averaging much more than 70-80 mpw. And I'm not a "speed" runner. My strength was my ability to hold a steady pace for a long time, and not fade at the end. I think my coach (who had coached lots of elite marathoners and other distance runners, and worked with some of the African runners and their coaches) held me back a bit on mileage due to my young age (I was 17 when I qualified with a 2:44, 18 when I raced Trials), but some of the other female runners who were close to my speed did even less mileage.We didn't do strength training per se, but we had one session a week (only the elite and sub-elite runners) where we worked with a trainer and the coach on core strength, stride drills, and some weird yoga poses and (I remember these really clearly) wall sits, which were supposed to help make our strides more efficient and fluid. Also some running on sand dunes. I did a lot of my long and tempo runs on hills as well. I think the rationale was to build strength for the hilly Trials course, as well as maximize the effectiveness of the relatively low mileage I was doing.Best of luck--you obviously have the dedication to go far (I think I know what your REAL goal is LOL). But be sensible and stay healthy.
Thanks for the feedback, as always. I hear you on not wanting to run high mileage for the sake of high mileage. Once you get towards the high 80s there seems to be greatly diminishing returns. But I will say, I seem to manage high mileage well and would do it conservatively. I just won't do it at the expense of quality. I think I'll use that as my guide. Speed isn't my strength either but I plan to continue to work on that as well. I think a lot of this will just be a matter of patience, consistency and remaining injury free. Unfortunately I don't have the level of talent you did coming into this but I'm hoping my relentless work ethic will at least help with compensating for my deficiencies
2013-11-22 11:50 AM
in reply to: ImSore

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by ImSore
Originally posted by wannabefaster"Intuitively and by what I've read, tight muscles and tendons can limit stride length, and thereby limit speed. Also, they are more prone to injury."I think that a lot of data out there now suggests that tight muscles have more elastic recoil and actually make you faster. Prone to injury? Maybe but I'm not sure I am willing to concede that either.To the OP. Plan looks good to me. Volume. Some speed. Get to the start line healthy. Sounds like a good recipe. Wish I were running Boston with you this year. It is going to be an EVENT!
Perhaps, tightness is not the right word. What I believe can be beneficial to a training program is specific running drills to increase range of motion. And drills not only increase range of motion, but the plyometric nature of some drills may also have an impact on power. I will concede though, that I am in no way a coach, but merely basing my suggestion on books, articles, and routines of more successful runners.I agree its all pretty controversial when it comes to flexibility, so I will rescind my original suggestion, and rephrase it. "You may consider working on flexibility, despite its controversial nature, in the form of adding specific running drills, that may increase range of motion and power, and may also aid in injury prevention."
I definitely see value in drills. Do you have some you can recommend?


2013-11-22 12:19 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?

Originally posted by Asalzwed
Originally posted by KIELBASA
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Thanks Dale. HA! I'm not even thinking about times yet!

I want to see you do the best you can, but shouldn't you have a goal before you have a plan?
My goal is to continue to run faster, stronger are more intelligently while remaining injury free. Specific time goals aren't really the center of my focus but once I get into my training and execute some key workouts and tune up races to get a ballpark of my goal pace for that specific race. While I can take an educated guess at what my estimated finish time will be now, it would just be a guess and I don't think that would be helpful for a whole lot. There are a ton of variables that are out of my control.

I think this is a great attitude to have. Too often people can get hung up on pre-season speed goals that aren't based in reality, they are based in what they wish they could do. Setting those speed goals based on key workouts/races is definitely the way to go.

2013-11-22 12:35 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed


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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by ImSore
Originally posted by wannabefaster"Intuitively and by what I've read, tight muscles and tendons can limit stride length, and thereby limit speed. Also, they are more prone to injury."I think that a lot of data out there now suggests that tight muscles have more elastic recoil and actually make you faster. Prone to injury? Maybe but I'm not sure I am willing to concede that either.To the OP. Plan looks good to me. Volume. Some speed. Get to the start line healthy. Sounds like a good recipe. Wish I were running Boston with you this year. It is going to be an EVENT!
Perhaps, tightness is not the right word. What I believe can be beneficial to a training program is specific running drills to increase range of motion. And drills not only increase range of motion, but the plyometric nature of some drills may also have an impact on power. I will concede though, that I am in no way a coach, but merely basing my suggestion on books, articles, and routines of more successful runners.I agree its all pretty controversial when it comes to flexibility, so I will rescind my original suggestion, and rephrase it. "You may consider working on flexibility, despite its controversial nature, in the form of adding specific running drills, that may increase range of motion and power, and may also aid in injury prevention."
I definitely see value in drills. Do you have some you can recommend?


Here are a few videos of a good drill series:

Side steps- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY0S1y-HEZs
Cross overs- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chY5YBKipTQ
Skips- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gE7N_PSjoI
Butt kicks, high knees, backwards- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjNAt708Ykc

This video has some good stuff too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcH97Dx8VCk
2013-11-22 5:00 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
Yes.....if you knew me better, you would realize that "relentless work ethic" counts for a whole lot more than speed or talent! I lost track of how many times I was teased/berated by my college coach and teammates for my inability to break 70 seconds in a 400m. At the level we were at, that was like being unable to tie my shoes. I was told many times that it wasn't possible for me to run the times I did, because it was too high a % of my max, yadayada. Speed--being able to run a 65 second quarter. Relentless work ethic--being able to run an 80-second quarter after 22 miles. Work ethic will get you a long way for the long stuff, IF you can stay healthy.
2013-11-22 9:08 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: Anyone care to give me feedback on my marathon plan?
This looks like a demanding program. But if your body can handle it, then go for it. The one thing that stood out to me was the long/medium runs. If the long runs are 16-18-20, how long is the medium-long run that you plan for once per week?

At the level where you are, I'm not sure that there's any secret sauce in the exact design of the workouts. The more important thing is that you avoid injury, and recover well from the training that you're doing. It may be what you do with the non-running hours that makes the most difference, for better or for worse.

Looking forward to reading about how it goes.
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author : kanoelani
comments : 0
My first experience as a triathlete and my post-season plan.
 
date : November 28, 2004
author : sekhmet
comments : 1
I challenge all BT readers who want to shed the pounds to stay committed to their training during the colder months. Share this commitment with others.