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2013-12-03 12:49 AM

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Subject: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Just thought I'd share this here, some folks may learn something from it, or you may teach me something by commenting.

David is a 1:08 IM swimmer, we are working on getting that down to 1:00 for Kona next year. he's got some low hanging fruit to pick which should shave off some time pretty easily. It's about 20 minutes long in all, but the really interesting part I think is around 16 minutes in. Well, it's all interesting, it just depends what kind of a swimmer you are.

There are certainly many other things I didn't comment about in this video..I didn't want to overwhelm him. But feel free to share if you are seeing things I did not mention or if you have other comments. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VakvjErKsnQ&feature=youtu.be

Edited by AdventureBear 2013-12-03 12:50 AM


2013-12-03 5:45 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Hard to disagree with the low hanging fruit which is the right arm entry vs the left arm pull, that's too easy. Surprising that he's so much better positioned on his non breathing side, that's not typical. Speaks volumes about his position, which is excellent.

However, if that is the lowest fruit, the next pomegranate branch up has got to be the overall arm position during the pull. The poor guy is leaving a lot of energy out there pulling as much from the shoulder as he is. That arm is straight down on both sides midway through the pull. I think he's listened to the "reach to the other side of the table" advice a little more than the "roll your arm over the barrel" advice. If he rolls his shoulder up onto his ear ever so slightly at the catch, the rest of his problems might just sort themselves out, including the right arm entry issue. If he focuses on driving his shoulder with his hip timing, he'll have a great starting position to push, rather than pull the water. He has great athleticism, a good kick (ever so slightly lazy with the left foot on the right side recovery, but it's peanuts), great balance, great timing...if he can find that push power as opposed to pulling the water towards him, I think he'll gain that feel he's lacking for the catch and finish the rest of the detail himself.

In my personal experience, not emphasizing the EVF and strong catch enough is a big pitfall, specifically when discussing open water vs pool swimming. Open water swimming dictates a lot of "poor" head position if it's in pool terms, simply because at least (if not more) 10% of the time you're sighting. You lose a lot more time swimming off course than you do with mechanics (after a point of course...but this guy is past that point). Getting a peek as you begin a catch with a vertical forearm vs getting a peek with one that is angled down is night and day. The former loses almost no propulsion and the latter pushes your head up, feet down, and nearly stops you. This isn't another TI vs the world conversation btw, just an observation of what does more good to emphasize and work on in OWS technique, and how it translates to pool practice. Some of the conventional wisdom from a pool point of view just doesn't hold in the big blue.
2013-12-03 6:42 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis

Nice video, thanks for sharing Suzanne.

#1 problem is clearly that right hand entry.  I also agree with fisherman that after that the catch/EVF is happening too late, he's half way through the pull before his forearm is vertical.  

I'd say you've got the potential for a 1:00 IM swim there for sure if you get those sorted out.

2013-12-03 4:12 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Agreed, right hand entry and needs much more EVF.

Also, I think that he is rolling way more than he needs to, especially on strokes where he is not breathing. This is causing his legs to splay way wide on some kicks for balance, which is both ineffective and robs forward momentum.

It also causes a bit of a snake in the water, not too much though.

John
2013-12-03 4:53 PM
in reply to: tkd.teacher

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
yeah, like I said there is a lot to comment on. The interesting thing is that he has been told 10000 times if not more all about "EVF" in many different ways by both myself and other swimmers. He thinks he is doing it...or at least he did until he saw these videos.

Getting to EVF for him is going ot be a stepwise process...obviously first just gaining awareness. He HONESTLY thought his elbow was high....
2013-12-04 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
When I was perusing this site, I saw this. Hmmm. A 20 min video. I don't have that long of an attention span to simply watch 20 mins of swimming.

But I clicked on it anyway. Wow! Simply Wow! I thoroughly enjoyed the analytical breakdown. Particularly the cause/effect aspects. I am a visual learner so I like to video my swims, particularly from the underwater view. What I think I do and what I see that I do ... well, that is what I work on.

Thank you.

Edited by CPA_PFS 2013-12-04 11:40 AM


2013-12-04 12:27 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis

Originally posted by AdventureBear yeah, like I said there is a lot to comment on. The interesting thing is that he has been told 10000 times if not more all about "EVF" in many different ways by both myself and other swimmers. He thinks he is doing it...or at least he did until he saw these videos. Getting to EVF for him is going ot be a stepwise process...obviously first just gaining awareness. He HONESTLY thought his elbow was high....

 

I found the same - a video, even a blurry, not great one, of your stroke underwater will be totally eye-opening to all non FFFOP swimmers as to how lousy one's EVF is, even if you literally tell yourself to do it perfectly while doing the video, and even super-exaggerate the high elbow position - it'll still look shocking low or clumsy on the pull on the video. 

 

Takes a ton of practice and conditioning, no doubt.

2013-12-04 1:03 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Originally posted by yazmaster
Takes a ton of practice and conditioning, no doubt.


x100.

One gets very tired of reading lots of posts about 'what am I doing wrong'. (this is not such a thread, just sayin...they're out there....) The diagnosis is fairly simple, and the answer is always work harder and smarter and longer. If you know your stroke needs work, how do you propose to work on it? Just by thinking about it or posting online? Of course - you need either a video or a coach or both to SHOW you what you're doing. But even when you see it, it's not like you can just magically start DOING it. You can see a better cyclist shift into a bigger gear and hold a higher cadence, doesn't mean you can do it. You can see the great runner taking short strides at the same cadence you do, but he's travelling 3 minutes faster per mile than you, and you know its economy of motion, strength, and conditioning, doesn't mean you can do it. As you develop as an ATHLETE, you learn to do EVERYTHING you can to improve...videos, tools, drills, diet, books, coaches...it truly never ends. And that's part of the fun!

2013-12-04 1:32 PM
in reply to: fisherman76


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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Originally posted by fisherman76

You can see the great runner taking short strides at the same cadence you do, but he's travelling 3 minutes faster per mile than you, and you know its economy of motion, strength, and conditioning, doesn't mean you can do it.




You may be right about everything else you said, but this statement just jumped out at me. There are 2 basic variables in running that determine pace. Stride Rate (cadence) and Stride Length. You cannot have the same cadence and a shorter stride ... and be faster than someone who has the same cadence and a longer stride.

I hope this does not hijack this thread, but that statement is just too inaccurate to not address.
2013-12-04 3:08 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Originally posted by fisherman76

As you develop as an ATHLETE, you learn to do EVERYTHING you can to improve...videos, tools, drills, diet, books, coaches...it truly never ends. And that's part of the fun!




Exactly! Always room for improvement
2013-12-04 3:10 PM
in reply to: CPA_PFS

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Originally posted by CPA_PFS

When I was perusing this site, I saw this. Hmmm. A 20 min video. I don't have that long of an attention span to simply watch 20 mins of swimming.

But I clicked on it anyway. Wow! Simply Wow! I thoroughly enjoyed the analytical breakdown. Particularly the cause/effect aspects. I am a visual learner so I like to video my swims, particularly from the underwater view. What I think I do and what I see that I do ... well, that is what I work on.

Thank you.


Thanks, I felt the same after I'd finished. I had NO idea I had been talking for 20 minutes. But there it was so I just uploaded it as is...I wasn't going to spend another 20 minute redoing a shorter one, lol. Besides..>I have 3 other videos of his from that same night, 2 showing a drill correction and 1 showing after...which is MUCH better...but you can still tell it's a very "fresh" thought as it looks a bit stifled.


2013-12-05 7:02 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by CPA_PFS When I was perusing this site, I saw this. Hmmm. A 20 min video. I don't have that long of an attention span to simply watch 20 mins of swimming. But I clicked on it anyway. Wow! Simply Wow! I thoroughly enjoyed the analytical breakdown. Particularly the cause/effect aspects. I am a visual learner so I like to video my swims, particularly from the underwater view. What I think I do and what I see that I do ... well, that is what I work on. Thank you.
Thanks, I felt the same after I'd finished. I had NO idea I had been talking for 20 minutes. But there it was so I just uploaded it as is...I wasn't going to spend another 20 minute redoing a shorter one, lol. Besides..>I have 3 other videos of his from that same night, 2 showing a drill correction and 1 showing after...which is MUCH better...but you can still tell it's a very "fresh" thought as it looks a bit stifled.

I'm SO glad to hear that, Suzanne, because when I watched yours, I felt like my 5 minute analysis videos were severely lacking.  lol!

The learning never stops!

 

2013-12-05 7:56 AM
in reply to: CPA_PFS

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
It's already a hijack, but I'll apologize anyway.


You may be right about everything else you said, but this statement just jumped out at me. There are 2 basic variables in running that determine pace. Stride Rate (cadence) and Stride Length. You cannot have the same cadence and a shorter stride ... and be faster than someone who has the same cadence and a longer stride.


Sorry, I'll stand by what I said, because you're not understanding me. There's two ways to define 'stride length'. One is how far you extend forward and back with your legs, and is how most people commonly refer to stride length. In other words, if someone says 'shorten your stride', you would bring your steps closer together. The other way - the way you're referring to the equation - is to define stride length based on how far you *travel* with each stride. That's based on power and mechanics. If you generate more power than me when pushing off to propel yourself forward, you will cover more ground than me with your stride, even if we both the same angles between our legs when we do that pushoff and hold the same cadence. So you're right - cadence and stride length are the only parts of the equation...but you're wrong that stride length is limited solely to how far apart your legs move.

Try it, measure a stride of one foot and vary how hard you spring off the back foot, you'll change how far you travel. You can alter your trajectory up or forward, and vary how high you lift the leading leg to accommodate a higher or lower arc, but all of this is done without changing how far apart you move your legs.
2013-12-05 11:25 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis
Originally posted by fisherman76


You may be right about everything else you said, but this statement just jumped out at me. There are 2 basic variables in running that determine pace. Stride Rate (cadence) and Stride Length. You cannot have the same cadence and a shorter stride ... and be faster than someone who has the same cadence and a longer stride.

I think it's just a misreading of the original post, not worth arguing over.
2013-12-05 1:38 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Here's a Swim Video Analysis

THIS!  IS!  FANTASTIC!!  OMG!  I learned SOOOOO much from this video analysis!

Thank YOU!!!

And on the joking side, I learned a new word, too - "bubbliness".

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