Help a non-believer understand

I'll just reference your very last question....

For me it is pretty simple. My faith was instilled in me as a child. It never waivers and it never goes away. That is pretty much it.

I don't think my religion or beliefs are better than anyone elses.   I just go about my life, believing my thing and trying to be a decent human being.

I'm simple like that.

Here's a line from a poem called "I looked Up" by Mary Oliver.

What misery to be afraid of death.
What wretchedness, to believe only in what can be proven.

To see the universe as something higher than a great thermodynamic unwinding gives life meaning and perhaps a glimpse of how it came to be.

TW

Tech Geezer,

Thank you for sharing those words.  I am totally in line with this thinking.

The motivation for my question is that I drive a lot for my job & end up listening to all kinds of radio.  I heard a minister spout creationism and then talk about carbon-dating different ancient religious texts to determine their ages.  He explained which scrolls (papyrus) were first hand or observer accounts and which were recollections done 100's of years later.

I have read the Torah and the King James Bible.  The experience of reading them from cover to cover had the effect of pushing me farther from my Judeo-Christian beliefs and toward my own version of spirituality.

For me there is no justification or validation necessary. It is belief, plain and simple. There are tons of things in this world that may not be tangible, but I believe they are true. As for reading the books, I believe there is a lot of truth in there, and a lot of other stuff as well. Which parts I choose to believe are up to me, because my creator made me to have free will.  My guess would be that if you are wanting to expand your knowledge, then much like triathlon, you should start with training. Maybe read on your own, maybe get a coach, maybe work in a group setting, listen and observe what is around you, and figure it out what works for you. It seems that your question is a step in that direction, and I wish you the best in your search.

And I think the answer to your question "Why does ANYTHING EXIST?" is simply that we were made to love and be loved. 

WOW.... so if you believe you are less intelligent. Nice. So it wasn't just me that thought the OP was pretty condescending.

History itself is anecdotal and interpreted many different ways. It's a story told by an observer with all their biases and perceptions. I myself have never ever seen the Bible as a historical text book, though many do. So what? I think it get's silly when you try to make it one... however, the Bible as a spiritual text is not hard to understand at all.

Budisim is not a "religion" as in a monotheist. It it probably the most concise source of the human condition which strives to see what is through observation. It probably has the least clashes with science of all of them.... but have you ever even bothered to look into what the actual "point" is... ya, it totally looses me on some 6th level existence in some other trapped body trying to find nirvana. I mean it's pretty far out there. Incredible wisdom, but what happens "next" is an exercise of FAITH.

Now we can go on and on for another 100 pages... and probably will... on the difference between fact and faith.... and it won't be any different than the last 100 times we have done this here... which isn't any different than the last 100 times it was done by another group 1000 years ago.

Either you believe or you don't. Many have been converted, many have rejected. Many have their faith strengthened, many have had it broken. Some find it again. What is totally AWESOME is when one person helps another person strengthen theirs, or helps them find some sort of peace in their life.

Yet what most usually happens is crap like this that is yet another long drawn out endeavor in tearing others down. You find what ever you look for. If you want to find reasons not to believe, there are millions. If you want to find reasons to believe, they are all around you.

Nobody has to validate anything to you. It is YOUR job to validate YOUR beliefs to YOU.

Here is what I have found on my travels... you are either self centered, or you are self less centered. Those that depend on intellect, are self centered.... there is no other possible answer other than the one you yourself has come to. Those that are self less centered see that their power comes from something else.That has a whole range of impacts. Some on each side are very beneficial, and some on each side are very destructive.

If you want to find your spirituality, then you have to make room. If self is all you have, you will never get it. I am much less self centered that I have ever been, but I am certainly no model of selflessness. But it is remarkable what happens if you actual clear a spot. Selfcenteredness, and selflessness can't occupy the same space. Fear and Faith can't either. And one can not exist without the other.

There are so many stories in the Bible that are contrary to either common sense or .  Creationism for example. Or the immaculate conception.  So many believe blindly because it is in a book.  The level of trust that ANY book is right and all others are wrong is beyond me.  Why do you accept the book as real?

My point is that there is little difference on an academic level between the Christian and Aztec belief system.  God calls for us to follow His Law.  Human sacrifice aside, the Aztec and Judeo-Christian God asks for sacrifice in His name

I find your statement pretty insulting.  I don't think that I have the answers; all I have are questions.  I don't base my questions about religion on my thinking alone.  Rather it is from a life of interacting with teachers, family, friends and clergy.  I have met clergy who cannot see beyond the words that are written in a book, and those who give themselves to their communities with love.

Furthermore, I have chosen a life in service of others, forgoing my own wealth and career.  I hope that faith and intellect are not mutually exclusive, but that self-reflection and inclusion will lead me to a truly righteous path.  I just am not sure that going to church and following commandments from a book will lead me to a better life.

I never said anything of the sort that I had you figured out... I simply gave you MY experience, and advice that might be able to help. You free to take it, leave it, or argue it. But my experience isn't right or wrong, it's just mine. Another thing I learned about advise... if it pi$$es you off... you might want to look at it... or not.

OK... here's your answer. God, the Creator, chooses to reveal himself to his many different children how ever he sees fit. He meets them where they are. Some seem to be able to accept Buddhism better, some like Christianity. Some are good with a walk in the park or the smile on a dog. What ever works for you is where he is at.

Or this one... God, the Creator of all is found in every single culture. Each culture has it's own history and it's own story telling unique to them that they have been raised with through their own experiences and perceptions. God so loves each of them and is tickled pink to see the incredible diversity grow from each just as a parent is with their own group of children. All world religions are the same with the same God. Your job isn't to find the differences, your job is to seek the similarities and find the connectives of having the same last name.... not focus on why there is a different first name. Religion is nothing more than a game to play with the Creator... it isn't the point. And nobody has to believe what someone else does.

Or.... God is nothing more than gene 12-5683 on branch AB47 of our DNA. Nothing more than a mere chemical process to help us carry on. It has evolved as a survival strategy. And as all survival strategies... opposites seem to work. Male, female. Hunter, scavenger. God centered, self centered. Remain in place, migrate. Apparently, you do not have the God gene. And you can no more understand those that do than you can understand what it is like to be pregnant and have a period.

Take your pick. Which one seems right to you? My guess is the answers I have found for myself are not going to work for you. I found my own set of beliefs that feel right to me. They work because I do not need anyone else's approval for them to be valid for me.

I believe there is one true God and that Jesus Christ is his Holy Son, that He is the living word and that by Him and thru Him all things were made.

I believed He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind and brought the dead back to life.  I believe in the cross.  That Jesus, God's sacrificial lamb, shedding his blood was crucified as an atonement for the sins of all the world and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

I believe in the resurrection. That on the third day He arose from the tomb conquering death, hell and the grave and today He sits at the right hand of the Father and that because He lives, we shall also live.

I believe in church. A harbor for souls where God is glorified, saints are edified, grace is multiplied, mercy is magnified. I believe in the Hoily Spirit who lives within all who are saved by grace by faith. He is our comforter, our friend, and our guide.  I believe that one day Jesus will come again to claim his own and prove once and for all that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

This is my statement of Faith.

I believe in a power much greater than me because I don't control anything but my own behavior. I believe in evil because I've seen it firsthand.  I believe that this life is only part of a journey and there are those among us who are old souls. There is no other way to explain their unwavering kindness toward others, even at their own peril.  I have no faith in religion.  After the hell I have seen rained on people in the name of religion, I will not hitch my horses to that wagon.....ever.  I believe in my conscience, even when I fail and don't follow it, because I believe it's the part of my soul that already knows what is good and right because of it's journey.  I am still searching......and trying......and I don't fear anything in this life or the next one.

Maybe I'm not a "thinking person", but I'll chime in with my own... feelings? I hesitate to call it experience. Anywho...

I feel there is a HUGE difference between religion and spirituality. And I think you'd agree with me. When it comes to reconciling my beliefs with another religion, I simply don't -- I don't identify my beliefs as any religion. I believe that all religion is man's (very error-prone) interpretation of that divine back-of-the-conscience itching saying "hey, I'm here", then institutionalized. I have to laugh at the born-again Christian who in one breath tells me I have to have a "personal relationship with God, and in the next proceeds to tell me exactly how that "personal" relationship should be and feel. Um... maybe that's YOU'RE personal relationship, but it's not mine.

But I also don't need a religion to tell me that human sacrifice is wrong.

You've done a lot of research and reading, and that's good. My thought is that now to put those things aside for a while and look inside, get in touch with that itch, that small still voice, and open up to it.

And there's nothing saying your relationship with God (or whatever name He is called) can't be intellectual.

God vs. Science

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by powerman What does intelligence or thinking have to do with spirituality? Why must they be contradictory? Spirituality is not a intellectual exercise.

Perhaps what he's describing is the fact there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions, faiths, holy books, etc. that all put forth stories that have little basis in science...yet are accepted as truth by many. He may be working on the assumption that it's easier to convince less intelligent people that myths passed down generation to generation are truth, even when evidence is anecdotal and interpreted 50 million different ways.. Intelligence, the ability to discern fact from fiction, the ability to weigh merits of tens, if not hundreds of different religions, can heavily influence the likelihood of a person to "buy into" any given religion. That's just how I interpreted it.

WOW.... so if you believe you are less intelligent. Nice. So it wasn't just me that thought the OP was pretty condescending.

Let me borrow your shouted, "wow." I never said "if you believe you are less intelligent." And personally, I didn't find the OP condescending at all. I gave you my interpretation of what he was getting at. I apologize if you took offense. Then again, I guess I should apologize to myself too as I do believe in something after this existence. I can't prove it, but I believe it. And, like lots of folks around here (who are believers and non-believers) I'm an intelligent guy...at least that's what the tests have shown. Oh well, other than to say I often ask the same questions the OP asks in this thread, I guess I don't have too much else to offer. Take care.

I guess I really do not understand how you read those words bolded above on the screen and come away with anything except "if you believe in myths you are less intelligent." Maybe it's just me.

Never the less, I apologize if I took the conversation somewhere it was never intended. But on this particular subject, care should be taken when asking such questions posed with intelligence or a "thinking person" as context. I'm not offended though because I'm not religious. I like to think I am spiritual ... even though most times I am a poor example. Right now I'm in a funk and not real happy with life... which always seems to happen around the holidays, go figure.... so perhaps I'm a little more argumentative than usual. Peace to all and Happy Birthday Jesus.

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by powerman What does intelligence or thinking have to do with spirituality? Why must they be contradictory? Spirituality is not a intellectual exercise.

Perhaps what he's describing is the fact there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions, faiths, holy books, etc. that all put forth stories that have little basis in science...yet are accepted as truth by many. He may be working on the assumption that it's easier to convince less intelligent people that myths passed down generation to generation are truth, even when evidence is anecdotal and interpreted 50 million different ways.. Intelligence, the ability to discern fact from fiction, the ability to weigh merits of tens, if not hundreds of different religions, can heavily influence the likelihood of a person to "buy into" any given religion. That's just how I interpreted it.

WOW.... so if you believe you are less intelligent. Nice. So it wasn't just me that thought the OP was pretty condescending.

Let me borrow your shouted, "wow." I never said "if you believe you are less intelligent." And personally, I didn't find the OP condescending at all. I gave you my interpretation of what he was getting at. I apologize if you took offense. Then again, I guess I should apologize to myself too as I do believe in something after this existence. I can't prove it, but I believe it. And, like lots of folks around here (who are believers and non-believers) I'm an intelligent guy...at least that's what the tests have shown. Oh well, other than to say I often ask the same questions the OP asks in this thread, I guess I don't have too much else to offer. Take care.

I guess I really do not understand how you read those words bolded above on the screen and come away with anything except "if you believe in myths you are less intelligent." Maybe it's just me.

Never the less, I apologize if I took the conversation somewhere it was never intended. But on this particular subject, care should be taken when asking such questions posed with intelligence or a "thinking person" as context. I'm not offended though because I'm not religious. I like to think I am spiritual ... even though most times I am a poor example. Right now I'm in a funk and not real happy with life... which always seems to happen around the holidays, go figure.... so perhaps I'm a little more argumentative than usual. Peace to all and Happy Birthday Jesus, pass the eggnog, holy chit!!

Fixed it for you.

Dude, you openly questions people's intelligence then are insulted when they respond to that? Wow.

Mr Brad, I didn't ask "How in the blazes can an seemingly intelligent person possibly believe in religion?"  I apologize if you heard that tone.  I did not type the question thinking that.  I want to know how to do it myself.

Of course, it is easier to convince less intelligent people that myths are true.  It is also easier to convince them that evolution exists, or that the world is flat, or that 1+1=2.

Maybe I am unable to compartmentalize my need for doubt, investigation and resolution.  When someone makes a statement, I immediately try to make sense of it.  To solve the problem.  When someone says the BIG BANG started the universe and that is all the answer that they need, my BS meter goes bezerk in the same way that it responds to the rituals and books of modern religions.

Is it possible for one to explain why they went from non-believer to believer?  Not to join a community, because I totally get that.  I belonged to a Catholic Community (Vatican 2.5 hippies) but not because I believed in the Resurrection or their rituals, but because I liked the people and the time to "unwind".  I ignored the rote-recited prayers, but enjoyed the homily.  And they took 10 minutes for the sign of peace.  Basically everyone (about 40) hugged everyone.

It sounds like there is not a route to become a religious person through an intellectual, scientific approach.  However, I am able to find my way to God through my curiousity and inquiry about the universe.  In a nutshell, I don't believe that the world is random, but I also don't think that any religion has come close to explaining it.

Technically, the immaculate conception is not in the Bible, hence the divergence of Catholic vs Protestant views on it. Probably a better example of one group's beliefs vs another group's rather than believing something because it is in a book (well I guess that still works too, but in a different way).

I'm in Colorado... it's pass the bong.