Help a non-believer understand (Page 2)

science and religion, if that's your thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_PBPn7qy9o

<wades into thread cautiously>

First off Mike, I think this is cool and I love that your'e trying to understand this stuff.

I apologize for the long response, but I feel the only way to really explain the way I feel is to give you my personal experience.  

I grew up with little to zero religious exposure and if somebody asked me if I believed in god I'd say yes, but I really didn't know why.  It was mostly because I was just told there was a god, so I left it at that.  However, as I progressed through school and was taught evolution and began to see all of the different "religions" and such I began to somewhat question things in my mind, but I wasn't really outspoken about it.  I guess you could call me an Agnostic at that point in time.  I kind of figured there was something, but I wasn't really sure.  I believed in evolution because it's what I was "told" was scientific fact so I believed it.

fast forward several years and I had a friend who was giving me the full court press on Christianity and I kind of stiff armed him for a long time.  At one point in time he gave me a "christian science" book that refuted evolution in a purported scientific way and for the first time that I can remember I felt that I was duped by the scientists.  I then took this as a referendum on Christianity being "the way" and got my bible and started going to church.  However, my entire "faith" was based on this supposed "scientific proof" that creation was real and evolution was fake.  I had no relationship with God, I was simply trying to go through the motions.

Fast forward a few years later and I was very involved in a christian church and began to see how the church itself operated.  It wasn't very good and many of the elders had some serious issues in their personal lives.  I began to question things again and ultimately dove in very deep on the science side again because that's where my brain always goes.  I try to understand things, I don't just accept them.  Sure enough I discovered that several of the "scientific facts" that were touted in the "christian science" book were not facts at all.  In fact several of them were proven outright hoaxes after the fact.  At this time, my entire faith was based on a lie that was disguised as "scientific proof".  My faith completely collapsed and fell to the point that I became very angry at the church "duping" me into believing in a false god.  I lashed out and became a very outspoken and proud Atheist for several years and until somebody could scientifically prove that God was real I was going to have nothing of it.  I would often say that until he shakes my hand and introduces himself I wouldn't believe in God.

Fast forward several years later to 2006 and I was on top of the world from a worldly standpoint.  I was making big bucks at my dream job, I had a wife of 13 years, three kids, big house, new cars.  Everything was perfect, except in reality I was miserable on the inside.  I was so driven to be successful that I treated my family like crap and I turned to pretty much everything else to fill the void in my life.  I had so many addictions it wasn't even funny and no matter what it was it still didn't satisfy me.  Looking back, I had discarded one God but simply replaced him with many other gods including; Money, Work, Golf, Women, etc...
So anyways, during this time when my life was "perfect" on the outside it was a complete shipwreck on the inside.  

In the summer of 2006 I was at a friends wedding in a church and I remember sitting there mocking God endlessly while sitting in church.  I was calling him the most vile and hateful things because of my anger inside towards being duped by religion.  It's hard to explain, but I was really angry towards religion. Anyways in a matter of weeks after that event I basically found myself being arrested and charged with an offense related to one of my addictions.  I don't want to go into the details here, but the net of it was I found myself sitting in jail while my wife and three children drained all the bank accounts and left me to rot in jail.  I thought at the time that I had lost my job, my house, and my friends.  I didn't realize it at the time, but my entire self worth was derived from others.  I was nothing but an empty shell inside and when my God "money" and "success" was being stripped away from me It was so bad that I was seriously contemplating how I was going to kill myself in the jail cell that night.  I had lost everything.

Later that day I was starting to get roughed up by several of the inmates and I really didn't care.  I was a rich white boy and didn't belong in jail, so they targeted me, but I really didn't care.  I wanted to die anyways so I figured why not go this way.  When the physical beating started there were two of the scariest looking type cast prisoners you could ever imagine that fought through the crowd and started fighting them back.  As they were fighting they began to recite John 8 from the Bible about "he who is without sin, cast the first stone".  Everyone scattered at that moment and one of the guys turned to me and held his hand out to help me up.  It was at this moment that I heard a voice in my head saying "I would like to introduce myself to you".  I felt a rush of adrenalin flow through my body like I never have in my life.  It was at that second that I became a believer in Jesus Christ.  Not because of what some book told me, but because of getting to meet him through one of his angels placed on this earth to protect me in that Jail.

From that moment forward, everything in my life changed.  My wife and I reconciled and our marriage (now of 21 years) is stronger than it ever has been.  The legal issues were greatly minimized, and most importantly I became a great father.  I began to look outward towards others and stopped being so selfish and greedy.  Since that day there have been literally hundreds of things that have happened in my life that are unexplainable.  There is absolutely no worldly explanation for them.  I could write 100 pages of things that have happened to me since that day that would just blow your mind.  Heck, even my business was brought on through prayer.   I was praying about starting a business and an old acquaintance from 4 years prior kept coming into my head.  I called him the next day and he had also been praying for God to bring him a business opportunity and said that he knew I was going to call.  He agreed to fund my business with $4M based on faith and nothing more.  Seriously, who does that?

So, to answer your question about how do I reconcile Christianity over the other religions?  The simple answer is that I don't because it doesn't matter and I could give two hoots about religion.  I don't believe in religion, i believe in Jesus.  God chose to reveal himself to me personally through his son Jesus Christ.  I was pointed to the Bible as his truth to be understood and that's what I try to do.  Half the time when I read the bible I get confused and even conflicted, but my faith is not in the Bible or religion my faith is in my relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit that lives in side of me.  I know it doesn't make sense, but I don't care because it makes sense to me.  

Still to this day I have HUGE issues with religion in America and around the world, but my faith is not in religion, it is in Jesus.  Religion is man, man is flawed, therefore religion is flawed.  Jesus > Religion

If you want to know what I truly feel about religion I would say this sums it up very well:
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus

Every man, woman, and child in this world has a god.  It may be work, drugs, alcohol, family, self, or a hobby. Everybody's different, but everyone puts their faith in something and it becomes their god whether they believe it or not.

Woah.  That's an incredible post, Tony.  Thanks for sharing that.

Hugs, man.

For the record, I took no offense whatsoever to your original post and I think exactly the way you do.  

I also agree that there is no possible way I can intellectually or scientifically prove that God is real because it doesn't fit within any scientific method.  Sure, I can say things are complex and unexplainable so therefore it had to be an intelligent being that started things, but that could just as easily be a flying spaghetti monster middle school project several billion years ago that got things going too.

It is good that you are searching.  I would ask you to try something for a few weeks and it's not specific to any particular religion.  Simply close your eyes in the shower and say this simple prayer.  "God, I'm trying to understand who you are and if you're real.  Will you please reveal yourself to me today?"  That's it

Then just sit back and see what happens.  He's not going to come riding in on a white horse, but you'll start noticing weird things going on around you that you've never seen before.  I can't explain it, but it's just the way it works.  Even as a believer I constantly pray for God to reveal himself because I love seeing him at work. 

we live in a world stuffed full of suffering.  and the last thing i want to hear is "it's my fault cause i'm an imperfect human and i sin (or some version of this - people sin - we create the evil -etc)"  but if i close my eyes and wish really hard to god amazing things happen?  nope.  don't buy it one bit.

if god is real - he either has other stuff to worry about or his priorities are completely out of whack.

Why is there no "Like" button under Tony's post?

lol, thanks.  Yeah, there's a whole lot more in there for sure.

My signature below is Romans 8:28 which is my life verse.  It states:  "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, and who have been called according to his purpose."

I was a total wreck, but God used the crap of my life as compost to grow me into what I was supposed to be.  Going to jail was the worst thing that ever happened to me, but God used it for the good.  My business partner even laughs at me every time I face adversity because he knows something unbelievable is going to happen as a result of the adversity.

Even my whole Triathlon journey ties into this, but that's a whole other thread.  

I get it, and I didn't say there would be world peace or anything.  I simply said to ask him to reveal himself to you, nothing more.
Also, anyone telling you that world suffering is your fault is flat out wrong unless you're the one directly causing somebody to suffer.  ;-)

We live in a fallen world.  Even from a secular standpoint there are bad people that do bad things and there are people suffering all over the world as a result.

Biblically it's referred to as our sinful nature and free choice.  I have the ability to harm others, as does anyone else in this thread and I believe it's Satan that wants this to happen, but I have the free will to chose not to do this harm.  Heck, even if it's just bad parenting or whatever that is the cause, it obviously still happens.  I don't feel that God wants bad things to happen, but he does allow them to happen because if he didn't we wouldn't have free will.

I never believed in a "Puppet Master" God... but that does not mean I have to not believe in "God". If anything, I'm technically agnostic because I really don't know... but I know there is something... even if it isn't "everlasting life in heaven"... or maybe it is... I have no clue.

i believe the exact opposite.  ill go ahead and admit im and atheist so we can get that part out of the way.  when i do a good deed or something nice for someone or go out of my way to help others then i am being self less. i don't expect reward or compensation, i do it because i respect people.  when religious people do this its the same as getting a dog to sit or obey any other command.  they do it for hope of reward and fear of punishment.  i don't need to be frightened of burning for eternity to respect others and do the right thing, but apparently religious people do because they feel their morals come from a book which tells them they must or they will be condemned for eternity. 

you do things because you want an eternal cookie. i do them because they are the right thing to do. one of us is self centered and it sure isn't me.

Did it ever dawn on you that religious people do it because they feel better about themselves after ward? That to live in Gods will means to live as he would have them... and that when they do right by their fellow man, they just feel better living in harmony with those around them? Do you think it is in any way possible that a religious person is just kind hearted and enjoys being of service to his fellow man?

Did it ever dawn on you that you do the exact same thing... that when you respect your fellow man that you feel better about your self... and that when you don't you don't feel so hot and probably avoid mirrors... and that indeed you too are nothing more than a pet doing a trick for a reward... I mean it psych 101... people do things that make them feel good, and avoid things that don't . Pretty simple basic human response.

Oh... and by the way, I'm not religious. I'm self centered, just ask my wife.... And I had no idea an eternal cookie was waiting for me.... But I LOVE cookies! However, for somebody that likes to show respect to his fellow man because it is the right thing to do... you sure are bad at it. You might want to step down from the pedestal.

i don't do it to feel good about myself afterwards and bathe in the afterglow. it just comes natural and i don't ponder on it at all.  i honestly don't trust anything "kind" a religious person does because i can never really tell if it is honest kindness or complete selfishness for like you said "they feel better about themselves after ward".

i thought you were religious based on the black/white view you created of intellect vs just assuming there is a higher power.

i show respect to people, not their ideas or beliefs. those are completely open to criticism. 

Then may I suggest, you still have a lot to learn about yourself... or not. I don't know everything... but I have a hard time imaging you as a dead robot that has no feeling at all doing nice things for people. That is something I would not trust. People most certainly are capable of selfless acts, regardless of their world view on religion... but nobody does anything for NO reason at all. You would be the first I ever met. Even if it is just because "it's the right thing to do". We all have our reasons for what we do.

What ever code you live by, you have your reasons. And how ever you decide to conduct your self, it is most certainly for reward. Even if it is nothing more than you adhering to your code....  so you can proclaim your self superior to religious folks because you are so selfless for no reason at all. See, you win.

Oh, and I do not have as black and white view as you may think, that's probably my fault. I did not feel like going into a long explanation.

It was not meant as an insult in any way... and it was most certainly not meant as a winner to the moral high ground for either side. Like I said, many good attribute to be found on both sides, and many destructive ones too.

All I know is that I used to be 100% self centered, and my world view went accordingly. I was an atheist, and I was more than willing to tell you why you were wrong. But at some point, self was not enough. And the more self less I got, the more spiritual I became. As I have said, I don't have a clue about anything, I'm agnostic, but I am open minded to possibilities. I'm about 80% self centered now... but wow, that 20%... holy chit... that's some good stuff.

Obviously I will not be getting my PHD on the subject for such a well thought out researched subject. These are just some of my rambling thoughts on the subject to this point in my life. Perhaps there is more to learn... I would like to think so. I was not trying to offend you or anyone with somehow linking our negative opinion of selfishness to any group.

Fair enough, I can agree with those statements.  When I was studying philosophy for a short term, not academic required, I found a lot of the writings from religious figures to be the most intriguing and less condescending; more of a "why can't it be both" way of thought.  There is always more to learn and an open mind is best, and I am open... to evidence/structured reasoning.

I just initially took your whole intellect vs faith view as us vs them kind of mentality.  I understand we can all be time constrained and not have time to delve into the details.

Thank you Tony, that really hit home.

Yes wow - very moving account. Thanks for sharing.

Got it. Understood. Just a misunderstanding.

Thanks for sharing that, Tony.  The bolded lines were particularly powerful when I read them.

I am a Catholic, raised that way.  I don't try to justify my religion over anyone else's.  I am more concerned how you are as a person then what religion you belong to.

To me most religions are somewhat similiar.  I have seen shows and read books on the similarites between religions and the correlations between the foundations of many diferent faiths.  I take a lot of what is in the bible, tora, coran et all as teachings that hoped to keep society civilized.  Although at times those teachings have and are used in a very uncivilized way.

Thanks for sharing, and I can really relate to your point of view because it used to be my point of view as well.  

I can say with certainty that I don't do anything for reward or compensation.  In fact, it's quite the opposite, I do good things because I simply want to do good things.  I don't believe in works based salvation, nor do I feel compelled to do good deeds out of fear or condemnation.

What you are describing is a common misconception about the Bible and Christianity, because you do not get into heaven through good deeds and you don't get punished for not doing them.

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:9-10, and 13

There's no mention of doing good deeds and I've yet to hear about this eternal cookie.  I hope it's oatmeal raisin though because I love those.

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.