General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update*** Rss Feed  
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2013-12-11 7:18 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Left Brain

Interesting.  I watch club swimming, and most of the kids I watch are high school age but don't swim for their high school team.  Most of the reasons I've heard surround poor coaching in high school. (that's not meant as a knock on anyone here who coaches high school)  I don't hear anyone complaining during the workouts.  I've never had a conversation with any of the coaches in this regard, but my guess is that wouldn't go very far with them.

Back when I was swimming, nearly 90% of our High School team were also members of our club team.  To say our HS coach was terrible would be an incredible understatement.  Not only was he the HS Varsity Swim coach, he was also the JV Water Polo coach.  I remember one time he got so angry he threw a wooden chair into the pool at one of the players during a practice.  Another day, he threw his car keys at a player - that was a good one because at some point, he realized his way home was on the bottom of a 15' deep pool and all the players, after being told they didn't know how to swim, said they didn't know how to swim underwater and refused to dive down and get the keys.  Fortunately he was smart enough to know that he knew NOTHING about swimming and allowed Jim Montrella, our club (Lakewood Aquatic Club) coach to design the workouts.  They were basically an extension of our club workout - during HS swim season we basically got to do 4-a-days.  5:00-7:00 a.m. with the club team, 7:30-8:30 a.m. with the HS team, 2:45-4:00 p.m. with the HS team, and finally 4:30-8:00 p.m. with the club team.  For those of us privileged enough to be a LAC member, the HS team was just another pool to workout in and the meets were just practice for our "real meets."  The HS team also provided a pretty good ego boost.

As to the complaining, there was virtually none.  We were all there by choice.  To become a member of LAC you had to be invited to try out, then you actually had to try out, After a successful tryout, you had to workout with the team for a month.  Then, IF you were accepted onto the team, you were on probation for six months during which a sneeze could be enough to show you the exit.  Every year you had to "re-qualify" which was a combination of coaches evaluations and times.  Jim's answer to the RARE complaining was thousands of meters of butterfly.  I remember one workout where the entire workout, nearly 8,000 meters, was butterfly.  You learned pretty quickly that you were swimming in a dictatorship and there was simply no future in complaining.



2013-12-11 7:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by wannabefaster 

Parents are not even allowed on the pool deck at her club practices.

That was how it was when I was swimming.  There was a 10' block wall around the long course pool and the short course pool was indoors.  Parents were NOT welcome inside and anything that happened at a workout, stayed at a workout.

Edited to correct spelling.



Edited by k9car363 2013-12-11 7:27 PM
2013-12-11 7:42 PM
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2013-12-11 7:55 PM
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Edited by Fred D 2013-12-11 7:57 PM
2013-12-11 8:00 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
We had closed practices as well.
2013-12-11 9:20 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Fred D
Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by wannabefasterParents are not even allowed on the pool deck at her club practices.
Same here. We're sequestered in the observation room.
. That is a USA swimming rule. No parents on deck during practice. I doubt I have to explain why, but the rule exists for good reason.

I may have actually witnessed one of the reasons why. Swim parents are CRAZY!



2013-12-11 9:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by jhouse4

Originally posted by Fred D
Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by wannabefasterParents are not even allowed on the pool deck at her club practices.
Same here. We're sequestered in the observation room.
. That is a USA swimming rule. No parents on deck during practice. I doubt I have to explain why, but the rule exists for good reason.

I may have actually witnessed one of the reasons why. Swim parents are CRAZY!

Naw, they're just convinced little Jane and Johnny are either going to college on an all expense paid trip, or they're off to the Olympics....It messes with their common sense.  I would say that mindset seems pretty unique to swimming as far as I've seen.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-11 9:25 PM
2013-12-11 9:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

I am a former competitive swimmer and currently a coach. I had a swim mom and I have seen and currently see all types of swim parent crazy. Chairs thrown at coaches, kids grounded for not swimming up to their parents standards, fights between parents, bribes to get their parents old records back. The list goes on and on.  C R A Z Y! The best part is the kids are not that fast. A lot of drama for nothing.

 

 

 



Edited by jhouse4 2013-12-11 9:45 PM
2013-12-12 3:14 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jhouse4

Originally posted by Fred D
Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by wannabefasterParents are not even allowed on the pool deck at her club practices.
Same here. We're sequestered in the observation room.
. That is a USA swimming rule. No parents on deck during practice. I doubt I have to explain why, but the rule exists for good reason.

I may have actually witnessed one of the reasons why. Swim parents are CRAZY!

Naw, they're just convinced little Jane and Johnny are either going to college on an all expense paid trip, or they're off to the Olympics....It messes with their common sense.  I would say that mindset seems pretty unique to swimming as far as I've seen.

add Canadian hockey parents to the list....

2013-12-12 5:47 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by Left Brain

Interesting.  I watch club swimming, and most of the kids I watch are high school age but don't swim for their high school team.  Most of the reasons I've heard surround poor coaching in high school. (that's not meant as a knock on anyone here who coaches high school)  I don't hear anyone complaining during the workouts.  I've never had a conversation with any of the coaches in this regard, but my guess is that wouldn't go very far with them.

Its interesting to watch infold and here is my real simple take. Club teams: They want to swim, they want to be seen, they want to advance past high school. It's the athletes choice to be on the club HS: It's more of a check the box, add in parents pressure and trying to find what they want to do. It's not their choice as much as it is them being put on the team. I actually talked to the coach about the club vs HS team, he says that people go to the club to be seen rather then the HS, but not everyone has made the jump. The HS teams comprised of all different talent levels and motivation/desire to be on the team.

 

I dunno...

Maybe my view was skewed but, from where I come from it seemed they were ready to get on the HS team when the opportunity arose.  I hadn't swam in probably a few years when I became a freshman.  The HS coach came and pulled me out of class one day during the fall when it was getting close to the start of swim practice.  He had found out from the local team coach that I used to swim pretty good and could do all four strokes.  He "recruited" me so to say and got me into some of the best times of my life.  Before he asked I had no plans whatsoever of doing any sport other than maybe going out for baseball.  Our team that year I was a freshman consisted of 8 guys.  It was a step up from the previous year of about 6 or 7 I think.  We had a decent year due in fact to a guy I was friends with was an awesome swimmer and the same age as me.  We had a core group of friends.  Lets just say by the time we were seniors we won our conference meet setting new scoring records, won sectionals setting many pool/sectional records and a new scoring record, and sent a lot of us guys to state in relays and other individual events.  There were 8 of us on the team when I was a freshman.  By the time we left as seniors we had close to 40 guys.  The coach always had a saying on some of the shirts we would were.  "Warrior swimming:  For the best times of your' life"  It really was some of the greatest times of my life.  I will always cherish that HS experience until the day I die. 

You could be right about how it is now.  I was talking to some local coaches and it seems only a small handful of kids swim year round.  Most of them high school aged don't  do the club when HS is done for the season.  Sad really.

2013-12-12 6:13 AM
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2013-12-12 6:57 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
None of this is unique to swimming.

I have seen it in both Travel baseball and AAU basketball. Mom or Dad always think Johnny or Susie are going to be the next big thing. It's often not a pretty thing to watch.
2013-12-12 7:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
LOL that was close to my own time for the 200 at 12 (I'm converting from meters) and I can't even keep up with my 11-12 year old self now. (I think I might have broken 3:00 for 200m in recent years, barely!) Of course, we were swimming 8-10 workouts a week, at least 3000-3500m a workout. Quite a bit more than now! And we were fiercely competitive in workouts--sometimes the coach had to pull kids out of the pool afterwards. Our club coach was one of the early ironmen, so whining was absolutely out of the question--consequences would probably involve massive butterfly sets, a kickboard, and one's backside. As I recall I was the youngest and smallest in the "distance swimmer" lane (moved up a couple AG to do the 200) and fought very hard to gain/keep that spot.

Edited by Hot Runner 2013-12-12 7:01 AM
2013-12-12 8:44 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
Originally posted by Left Brain

Naw, they're just convinced little Jane and Johnny are either going to college on an all expense paid trip, or they're off to the Olympics....It messes with their common sense.  I would say that mindset seems pretty unique to swimming as far as I've seen.




Not unique to swimming at all. HBO just did a documentary on this that showed how crazy parents can be across all sports, tennis, baseball, football, etc.

It is my impression that a significant number of the parents at our Club swim team are 'expecting' their children to earn college scholarships. For many I believe that is their saving plan for college........ We have no such illusions for our daughter. We are saving diligently the old-fashioned way. We would like her to get exercise and enjoy the comraderie of being part of a team. At one point in time she was the fastest eight year old in our county. Now, she is probably the fourth fastest kid in her lane. Fred D pointed out that they all develop at different rates. As long as she is still having fun (and yes, sometimes we have to 'force' her to go to swim practice) we will keep taking her.

Of course, I expect her to be the next Mirinda Carfrae....... (pink)

Here is some interesting reading (for me at least) on what makes a good and bad sports parent:

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/more-family-fun/201202/what-makes-n...

I'm going to remember to tell my daughter tonight how much I enjoy watching her swim, and then move on to being her Dad.

Sorry, this has gotten way off topic. Of course, that is what the internet does Maybe we should start a new thread?
2013-12-12 9:00 AM
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Edited by Fred D 2013-12-12 9:01 AM
2013-12-12 9:12 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
I have heard that there are a lot of women's GOLF scholarships that go unclaimed each year (no source, just rumor). I have tried to talk my daughter in to learning to golf but she has no interest. That is one sport that I would have to hire a coach to teach her. I have no idea how to hit that little white ball.


2013-12-12 9:15 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
I think clubs should take a very proactive role in setting parent expectations, particularly at meets and practices. They should also try to educate parents along the lines of the supportive parents articles we've discussed before. Luckily, my kid's club does this. Lots of emails and short videos about how the parents should act at meets and such, and generally about the parent/child relationship regarding sport. It's not condescending and I think it really helps a parent, like me, that is new to this (my son is on the club's youngest competitive team). Some of it is common sense, but a lot is very subtle actions the parent can undertake to make their kid's experience more enjoyable.

I'm sure this wouldn't deter one of the real crazy parents. I think if any parent acted like a nut at practice or a meet, there would be immediate consequences like probation or the parent or banning from the pool. I don't think they would mess around at all.

There is a huge difference between the atmosphere at summer league meets and club meets. Summer league has huge groups of parents screaming and cheering during swims (all positive and fun), while club meets have the parents walking over, watching, maybe clapping and shouting out a "good job."



2013-12-12 9:19 AM
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Edited by Fred D 2013-12-12 9:21 AM
2013-12-12 9:22 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
Originally posted by Fred D

 

The only thing I ever say to my kids is "crush the souls of the children in the lanes next to you




It also helps if you have that printed on their ceiling above their bed so it's the last thing they see at night and the first thing they see in the morning. Hypothetically.

2013-12-12 9:24 AM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Fred D

 

The only thing I ever say to my kids is "crush the souls of the children in the lanes next to you

It also helps if you have that printed on their ceiling above their bed so it's the last thing they see at night and the first thing they see in the morning. Hypothetically.

My childhood suddenly makes so much sense to me.  I always wondered what all that writing up there was about....

2013-12-12 9:35 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
Originally posted by k9car363

Jim's answer to the RARE complaining was thousands of meters of butterfly.  I remember one workout where the entire workout, nearly 8,000 meters, was butterfly. 




I had my first taste of butterfly last night in our masters class. Exhausting, humbling...I looked more like fish flopping around than someone doing a true butterfly stroke. I can't wrap my mind around doing 8,000 meters of that.


2013-12-12 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Fred D

 

The only thing I ever say to my kids is "crush the souls of the children in the lanes next to you

It also helps if you have that printed on their ceiling above their bed so it's the last thing they see at night and the first thing they see in the morning. Hypothetically.

It's funny that you wrote that, because both of my really athletic kids DO have a few motivational/inspirational quotes in their rooms.  My son has one that he touches every day when he leaves his room.  It wasn't an idea I gave him, he read it somewhere and picked it up. (I think maybe a book about Phelps but I'm not positive)  His sister picked it up from him. 

I worry sometimes that my kids are too into their sports and miss some of "just being a kid".  I know that they get invited to activities that they pass on because of one practice or another, and we've had conversations about it.  And my wife and I have often wondered if all of the racing and competitiveness is all too much.  Both of those kids have pretty lofty dreams and goals, but it's actually a lot of work, at least compared to the way I grew up.  What started out as just us working out together has evolved into us telling them occasionally, "you know, you don't have to do this."  But at this point, it's become a big part of their lives and their identity as they became teenagers. 

The really big upside is that they keep in touch with kids all over the country who they race with and have become friends with.  Where my childhood involved riding my bike a few miles to a friends house, theirs involves "facetime" with a friend across the country, planning when they will see each other again at the next swim meet, or triathlon.  And I NEVER worry about the kids they run around with.....if you're a teenager up at 4 in the morning to swim, or you're inbed on a Friday night at 9 because you're just whipped from the week....there's not much time for getting in trouble.

I know that some people see us as "those parents" because we spend almost all year planning, traveling, and watching them race here and there.....and for us it's meant putting most of our own activities on hold while we support what they want to do.  It's certainly not something we ever saw coming as we brought them up working out with us.

I know this is off the topic, but as the thread has gone on it's made me think about how we are as parents.......and what my own kids will think of their childhood experiences as they become adults.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-12 9:56 AM
2013-12-12 10:04 AM
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2013-12-12 10:32 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Fred D

 

The only thing I ever say to my kids is "crush the souls of the children in the lanes next to you

It also helps if you have that printed on their ceiling above their bed so it's the last thing they see at night and the first thing they see in the morning. Hypothetically.

It's funny that you wrote that, because both of my really athletic kids DO have a few motivational/inspirational quotes in their rooms.  My son has one that he touches every day when he leaves his room.  It wasn't an idea I gave him, he read it somewhere and picked it up. (I think maybe a book about Phelps but I'm not positive)  His sister picked it up from him. 

I worry sometimes that my kids are too into their sports and miss some of "just being a kid".  I know that they get invited to activities that they pass on because of one practice or another, and we've had conversations about it.  And my wife and I have often wondered if all of the racing and competitiveness is all too much.  Both of those kids have pretty lofty dreams and goals, but it's actually a lot of work, at least compared to the way I grew up.  What started out as just us working out together has evolved into us telling them occasionally, "you know, you don't have to do this."  But at this point, it's become a big part of their lives and their identity as they became teenagers. 

The really big upside is that they keep in touch with kids all over the country who they race with and have become friends with.  Where my childhood involved riding my bike a few miles to a friends house, theirs involves "facetime" with a friend across the country, planning when they will see each other again at the next swim meet, or triathlon.  And I NEVER worry about the kids they run around with.....if you're a teenager up at 4 in the morning to swim, or you're inbed on a Friday night at 9 because you're just whipped from the week....there's not much time for getting in trouble.

I know that some people see us as "those parents" because we spend almost all year planning, traveling, and watching them race here and there.....and for us it's meant putting most of our own activities on hold while we support what they want to do.  It's certainly not something we ever saw coming as we brought them up working out with us.

I know this is off the topic, but as the thread has gone on it's made me think about how we are as parents.......and what my own kids will think of their childhood experiences as they become adults.

Great points, LB. I wonder many of the same things, ie; is this something my girls will remember fondly or not?

As a kid I did not become involved in anything like this (nor was it readily accessible), but honestly I think I would have loved to swim on this club as a kid!

The rub is that we don't want to be one of 'those' parents that thought we were encouraging our kids dreams, when in fact those dreams are OUR dreams and not their own. Kids can end up resenting parents for this I strongly suspect, if it does indeed go sour....

You will have chances to check yourself.  My daughter hasn't had to make many choices yet, but my son is now a sophomore in high school and he now finds himself having to choose between meets and races outside of school vs. school races, or swim meets vs. triathlon, etc.  I can say without reservation that he is now making some choices that I would have made differently for him. They are all good options, so there really is no downside to it, but his goals for himself don't always line up with my dreams for him. We just recently started planning next year, and one of the Junior elite triathlon cup races is in early March, and it's a qualifier for the PATCO championships and even a spot at the Youth Olympics in China next year.  I just assumed that he would have that high on his list of "must do" races and I couldn't wait to watch him have at it..  Instead, he pointed out that the March race was the same weekend as swimming sectionals and he told us that he's worked really hard to get sectional cuts and didn't want to miss that swim meet.  He said that he didn't really want to start triathlon season that early, and besides, the PATCO race was the same weekend as the state HS track meet and he wanted a chance to get there with the upper classmen who would be gone next year. (guys who have really been a great influence on him)  And so, we'll do it his way.  I'm actually proud of the thought he put into that choice, but it certainly wouldn't have been mine.

2013-12-12 11:44 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Swimming w/ High School Swim Team ***Update***
Good read and a lot of truth with the parents in the sport (or any sport). I've been swimming with a club team around here as well. I think it's been helpful on both sides. I get a workout that I wouldn't normally get solo or with a masters team and they seem to like it because I can push their faster distance swimmers. I'll have to post some workouts up here so you can see how they (and by default, I) train.

TJ
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