The heart can handle it but the legs can't (Page 2)

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Actually, we talked quite a bit about that, and both of them agreed that there was a tipping point where more miles equaled greater chance of injury....and that 10-15 miles per week (not 5-10....we were talking about the difference between 60 and 70-75 miles per week or more, as I said) that could be saved by very high intensity cross training was significant......40-60 miles per month, or more.  But again, they were talking about a level of swimming that very, very few of us are at, or probably could be.  They said the same for cycling. 

I can tell you that neither spoke of the marathon like it was some mythical distance that was far different than other running they had done, more as a natural progression of their running careers.....and maybe that just has to do with genetic ability....we didn't talk much about that outside of the villages in Kenya that produce the majority of the fast runners.....obviously another thread discussion. 

Interesting.  I think the ability to "fake" the next distance up has to do with training well for the distance below it.  That sets you up to gut it out on a slightly longer course.

When I was looking at my first HIM last summer, someone commented that you can fake an Oly, but not a HIM.    I have a bunch of friends that participate in sprints, rather than being really trained up to compete in a sprint, who would say you can't fake an Oly...

I think it has more to do with the muscular endurance in the legs of the person in question.  Yes, a marathon (and I've done them) is a slightly different beast (I've always said a marathon isn't half done until 22 miles in - but that reflects only the training *I* put in for them) - but nothing mythical about it.

The "lots of triathletes" mentioned above are, I suspect, just the folks who've trained enough to juuuuust pull out a fast HM, and for whom the cross training has helped at the margin.  I'll bet you a beer that there are LOTS of triathletes (maybe not as vocal?) who could not do so and many (but not as many) for whom no faking is needed for a fast HM.

All about the training put in, IMO.

That said, I'm working on muscular endurance in running right now, as I faked my HM in the HIM last summer (truth).  Good thing it wasn't 13.2 miles...

Matt

Contrary to what you believe the marathon IS a totally different beast.

Its long enough that it far exceeds the recovery capacities of your body if you race it - if raced all out you will be lucky to race 1 marathon every 4 months whereas you can run a half marathon every month no problemo.

It is run at a subthreshold intensity the whole way - not aerobically intense at all, but very long.

If your body is untrained to burn fat prefentially over glycogen, you'll bonk. (Running too fast a pace will do this) as you'll exceed your liver glycogen production.

Of course, if you're talking with elite runners/athletes, they will find a marathon distance less mythical,. But even they are subject to the above, and even they will respect it if racing it all out. There's a reason you rarely see pro triathletes, even good runner ones, banging out marathons before Kona or during the training year, whereas you'll see them a lot in half marathon and other shorter races as tuneup. 

The biggest mistake you can make in going into a marathon is treating it just like another of the distances from 5k-HM. You'll be in for a rude awakenining - and yes I know a few sub 2:40 guys who made this very same  mistake early out.

As I said, I do think it's a slightly different beast (so, there's what I believe - perhaps "slightly" isn't strong enough to count), and quite for the reasons you state.  The last 5 miles of the race are what, from what I've seen (and my experience) make it different.  From metabolism to recovery post, I agree with what you said (and never did I suggest people "bang out marathons before Kona").

My point was that for someone that hasn't trained for it, a HM is not something they can fake.  All too often I see on these boards people with considerable running and tri experience saying things like that, and I feel strongly that it is a disservice to the beginner.  It can create a sense that the HM is no big deal (read your above post and imagine that you're just starting - could make a HM or HIM seem like just another local 5k).

I think that without the appropriate muscular endurance, a HM/HIM will leave you hurting.  The marathon is more than twice as likely to do so, I agree.  But for anyone starting or just moving up distances, I take issue with the idea that a HM is no biggie.  For experienced runners, sure - less than half as hard as a marry - way less.  But people moving up need to "respect" the next distance up - whatever that might be.

Just my thoughts.  We can disagree on this, but I wanted to clarify with what I was disagreeing.

Matt

As a lot of people have said, running more will help you build the endurance to go longer, faster.

Running more doesn't have to be about doing 5-6 runs a week, if you can extend your 3 runs, or a couple of them it may help.

Now a specific training routine that can help with increasing your speed-endurance (going faster for longer) is fartlek training (google it for a MUCH better explanation than I can give).  If you introduce fartlek training you may see some gains in your ability to maintain speed over distance.

There are many many explanations of fartlek training out there, a lot of military units (this is where I first got introduced to the pleasures), endurance (ultra) racers etc will use it. 

basically, take a long(ish) run 45 minutes plus in duration, then drop intervals in to it.   do 10 minutes warm up pace, spend the next 25 to 30 minutes doing 3-4 minutes regular pace then a 30 second burst of higher intensity (increased leg speed - higher heart rate- higher RPE, however you measure it), calm it back down for 3-4 minutes...repeat, then cool down for last 5 or 10 minutes.  You will get to the end hating fartlek for the first few sessions!  I know I do every time I bring it back in :-)  You'll have covered the 45 minutes with a good long run with 10 to 15 sprints in it.

After you've had this workout in your routine for some time, you'll start to see a couple of things, your regular pace between high intensity bursts will be up, your heart rate at both regular and higher intensity may be lower..but importantly you should see your normal longer runs are done at similar/lower HR but lower min/mile.

Taking it further a couple of approaches:

Keep the runs between 45 minutes and an hour but do 2 minutes steady to every 30 seconds high intensity - increased speed over middle distances

Keep the intervals at 3-4 minutes steady and 30 seconds high intensity but steadily increase the duration of your long. Maintain new found speed for longer..

I wholeheartedly agree that speed over distance needs more training, but that training needs to be smart.

hope this helps