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Fluid trainer resistance
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 2014-01-14 10:29 AM |
 274  |  Subject: Fluid trainer resistanceI have a CycleOps Fluid 2 trainer that I have been using in conjunction with TrainerRoad since October. Just finished the 9-week Intermediate Build I plan which culminated with Broken Finger on Saturday. About an hour into the ride I noticed it became significantly more difficult to hit certain wattages as the resistance on the trainer was really cranked up. My heart rate spiked above where it is normally at for those watts, etc, etc. At first I thought it was something with the bike so I hopped off to check it out and didn't see anything. Then I placed my hand on the trainer and noticed it was running really hot and I still had about 30 minutes to go. Decided to point my fan at the trainer unit to help cool it down and shortly after noticed things felt back to "normal". I've read that fluid trainers increase resistance with speed but this resistance spike felt like I was trying to sprint up a big hill, instead of how it usually feels. So, two questions: a) can the resistance on the fluid trainers increase beyond where it should be based on the watts because of overheating and/or b) am I making it too easy by pointing a fan at the trainer to cool it down, thus not allowing the resistance to build appropriately and making the workout easier? |
| 2014-01-14 6:39 PM in reply to: tb1000 |
Elite 7783    PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance The resistance unit on my fluid trainers always get hot during a workout, I don't think what you noticed is abnormal. Are you sure there isn't a brake pad rubbing or something else that would cause some drag? |
| 2014-01-14 8:34 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| Member 326 | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance If anything, the higher temp would probably decrease viscosity and make it easier, though that effect is probably negligible. They way you told the story, it's as if this is the first time it's happened. Have you not been on your trainer for an hour+ before? |
| 2014-01-15 10:06 AM in reply to: VGT |
| 274 | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance No, I've been on my trainer for greater than an hour before but this resistance at the required watts was abnormal. The plan was 3x a week, two 1 hr sessions and one 1.5 hr session. This was the final workout in the 9-week plan so I've hit all of these watts and length of time on the trainer before. I checked everything on the bike and didn't see anything. Once I put the fan on the unit everything felt smooth and normal again. |
| 2014-01-15 10:09 AM in reply to: tb1000 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by tb1000 No, I've been on my trainer for greater than an hour before but this resistance at the required watts was abnormal. The plan was 3x a week, two 1 hr sessions and one 1.5 hr session. This was the final workout in the 9-week plan so I've hit all of these watts and length of time on the trainer before. I checked everything on the bike and didn't see anything. Once I put the fan on the unit everything felt smooth and normal again. If your watts were reading correctly, the resistance was the same. Power is measure at what you are putting out. It is likely you were just fatigued, which made it feel more difficult. |
| 2014-01-15 10:12 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tb1000 No, I've been on my trainer for greater than an hour before but this resistance at the required watts was abnormal. The plan was 3x a week, two 1 hr sessions and one 1.5 hr session. This was the final workout in the 9-week plan so I've hit all of these watts and length of time on the trainer before. I checked everything on the bike and didn't see anything. Once I put the fan on the unit everything felt smooth and normal again. If your watts were reading correctly, the resistance was the same. Power is measure at what you are putting out. It is likely you were just fatigued, which made it feel more difficult. I'm guessing but I think the OP is using Trainerroad with Virtual Watts? In that case if something did indeed increase the resistance then the watts he sees would indeed go down (or effort to maintain the wattage goes up) because speed goes down. |
| 2014-01-15 10:16 AM in reply to: tb1000 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance "a) can the resistance on the fluid trainers increase beyond where it should be based on the watts because of overheating and/or " I can assure you, the trainer can handle whatever watts you're throwing at it. Its may be possible the resistance unit needs to be replaced. I had to replace mine after a few years (covered under warranty). |
| 2014-01-15 10:29 AM in reply to: running2far |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Cycleops Fluid 2 definitely has a "warm-up" time, where once you ride it a bit, the resistance will bump up and then stay there. But I usually hit that within about 5 minutes, not an hour. Was your tire slipping or something like that? |
| 2014-01-15 1:25 PM in reply to: spudone |
| 274 | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by spudone Cycleops Fluid 2 definitely has a "warm-up" time, where once you ride it a bit, the resistance will bump up and then stay there. But I usually hit that within about 5 minutes, not an hour. Was your tire slipping or something like that? I can't say with 100% certainty that it wasn't slipping but it didn't feel like it. All I know is I was in the fourth iteration of that interval set and it was extremely difficult. Heart rate really spiked and felt like I was trying to grind up a hill. Had not felt like that before. Fatigue definitely wasn't an issue. Whatever the cause was stopped after I put the fan on it but if it was the tire slipping maybe it could have regained traction after I stopped. The resistance at that level was definitely abnormal from what I had previously experienced. To give some stats, the target power was 282 and my max heart rate was 158 in a 2-minute interval. After I put the fan on it I had two other intervals which were 1 minute at 307 watts with max heart rate of 130 and another 1 minute at 319 with max heart rate of 134. I'm 180 lbs. Anyway, just trying to better understand how resistance works with the fluid trainers because this was certainly an anomaly from what I have been experiencing. Thanks. |
| 2014-01-15 3:01 PM in reply to: tb1000 |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by tb1000 Originally posted by spudone Cycleops Fluid 2 definitely has a "warm-up" time, where once you ride it a bit, the resistance will bump up and then stay there. But I usually hit that within about 5 minutes, not an hour. Was your tire slipping or something like that? I can't say with 100% certainty that it wasn't slipping but it didn't feel like it. All I know is I was in the fourth iteration of that interval set and it was extremely difficult. Heart rate really spiked and felt like I was trying to grind up a hill. Had not felt like that before. Fatigue definitely wasn't an issue. Whatever the cause was stopped after I put the fan on it but if it was the tire slipping maybe it could have regained traction after I stopped. The resistance at that level was definitely abnormal from what I had previously experienced. To give some stats, the target power was 282 and my max heart rate was 158 in a 2-minute interval. After I put the fan on it I had two other intervals which were 1 minute at 307 watts with max heart rate of 130 and another 1 minute at 319 with max heart rate of 134. I'm 180 lbs. Anyway, just trying to better understand how resistance works with the fluid trainers because this was certainly an anomaly from what I have been experiencing. Thanks. This is going to be the all time Captain Obvious question, but, you do have the thing clamped down on the tire right? Only ask cause your numbers are amazing, at least to me. I weigh 195 and if I'm going at 307 for a minute my HR is going to be around 180. Even 282 for 2 minutes I'll be in the 170's. So those sound normal to me. The 300+ watts with an HR in the 130's seems strange to me. |
| 2014-01-15 3:58 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
| 274 | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance This is going to be the all time Captain Obvious question, but, you do have the thing clamped down on the tire right? Only ask cause your numbers are amazing, at least to me. I weigh 195 and if I'm going at 307 for a minute my HR is going to be around 180. Even 282 for 2 minutes I'll be in the 170's. So those sound normal to me. The 300+ watts with an HR in the 130's seems strange to me. Yep, everything was clamped down fine and I inflate my tires to the same psi before every workout. Maybe it was just some weird temporary thing. I appreciate the help. |
 2014-01-16 12:04 PM in reply to: tb1000 |
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| 2014-01-27 8:18 PM in reply to: nolehypothesis |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Did you ever figure out what the deal was with your trainer getting sluggish on you? I'm having the exact same problem you're talking about. It'll feel completely fine then about 30-45 minutes in the tension seems to go through the roof. I just received a new flywheel because my last one was leaking, so its not an age thing. I've done three rides on it so far. The FTP test, ISLAGIATT, and Revolver. It happened during the FTP test and revolver. It never happened during the other. Which is leading me to believe there's a certain wattage that causes this to happen. ISLAGIATT never gets very high, but its just sustained. WHere as Revolver, I was well above the target for the first 9 intervals, then all of a sudden I couldn't come anywhere near target. My target goal was 325. For the first 8 I was around 350 and felt fine, then immediately on the next one I could barely muster 270-280, and it only got worse from there. I'm hoping you maybe figured out what was going on, because I cant' for the life of me understand this. I also know it wasn't fatigue. Fatigue slowly wears you down, it doesn't slam you like a wall. You can see my logs(if they're public, not sure) how quickly it went down hill for me. |
| 2014-01-28 5:44 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Pro 5892 , New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance I can't remember the exact number, but Fluid2 max resistance is equal to somewhere north of 2000W. Considering Andre Gripel just won the last stage in Tour Down Under at a max of 1672W, that should be sufficient for pretty much anyone. In other words, there's something else going on. I'm guessing the tire is slipping… are you using a trainer tire or a standard road tire? And is the roller tightened enough against the tire? The only other explanation would be a leaky resistance unit, you would've noticed the puddle of oil on the floor. And if it has leaked, CycleOps do have a fantastic customer service, so the trainer will be back if that's the case. Edited by audiojan 2014-01-28 5:45 AM |
| 2014-01-28 9:01 AM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
| 274 | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Did you ever figure out what the deal was with your trainer getting sluggish on you? I'm having the exact same problem you're talking about. It'll feel completely fine then about 30-45 minutes in the tension seems to go through the roof. I just received a new flywheel because my last one was leaking, so its not an age thing. I've done three rides on it so far. The FTP test, ISLAGIATT, and Revolver. It happened during the FTP test and revolver. It never happened during the other. Which is leading me to believe there's a certain wattage that causes this to happen. ISLAGIATT never gets very high, but its just sustained. WHere as Revolver, I was well above the target for the first 9 intervals, then all of a sudden I couldn't come anywhere near target. My target goal was 325. For the first 8 I was around 350 and felt fine, then immediately on the next one I could barely muster 270-280, and it only got worse from there. I'm hoping you maybe figured out what was going on, because I cant' for the life of me understand this. I also know it wasn't fatigue. Fatigue slowly wears you down, it doesn't slam you like a wall. You can see my logs(if they're public, not sure) how quickly it went down hill for me. I noticed it towards the end of ISLAGIATT the other day but it wasn't a resistance due to fatigue. It felt like I was trying to pedal through molasses. No idea what is causing it but my suspicion is overheating because that thing gets really hot. I don't think my tire is slipping because I would feel it in the pedal stroke and I don't think it is fatigue because I can still pedal but have to exert a significant amount more effort to hit watts that I was hitting before. |
| 2014-01-28 4:21 PM in reply to: tb1000 |
| Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by tb1000 Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Did you ever figure out what the deal was with your trainer getting sluggish on you? I'm having the exact same problem you're talking about. It'll feel completely fine then about 30-45 minutes in the tension seems to go through the roof. I just received a new flywheel because my last one was leaking, so its not an age thing. I've done three rides on it so far. The FTP test, ISLAGIATT, and Revolver. It happened during the FTP test and revolver. It never happened during the other. Which is leading me to believe there's a certain wattage that causes this to happen. ISLAGIATT never gets very high, but its just sustained. WHere as Revolver, I was well above the target for the first 9 intervals, then all of a sudden I couldn't come anywhere near target. My target goal was 325. For the first 8 I was around 350 and felt fine, then immediately on the next one I could barely muster 270-280, and it only got worse from there. I'm hoping you maybe figured out what was going on, because I cant' for the life of me understand this. I also know it wasn't fatigue. Fatigue slowly wears you down, it doesn't slam you like a wall. You can see my logs(if they're public, not sure) how quickly it went down hill for me. I noticed it towards the end of ISLAGIATT the other day but it wasn't a resistance due to fatigue. It felt like I was trying to pedal through molasses. No idea what is causing it but my suspicion is overheating because that thing gets really hot. I don't think my tire is slipping because I would feel it in the pedal stroke and I don't think it is fatigue because I can still pedal but have to exert a significant amount more effort to hit watts that I was hitting before. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear to hit the same watts? |
| 2014-01-28 5:44 PM in reply to: tb1000 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by tb1000 Originally posted by spudone I can't say with 100% certainty that it wasn't slipping but it didn't feel like it. All I know is I was in the fourth iteration of that interval set and it was extremely difficult. Heart rate really spiked and felt like I was trying to grind up a hill. Had not felt like that before. Fatigue definitely wasn't an issue. Whatever the cause was stopped after I put the fan on it but if it was the tire slipping maybe it could have regained traction after I stopped. The resistance at that level was definitely abnormal from what I had previously experienced. To give some stats, the target power was 282 and my max heart rate was 158 in a 2-minute interval. After I put the fan on it I had two other intervals which were 1 minute at 307 watts with max heart rate of 130 and another 1 minute at 319 with max heart rate of 134. I'm 180 lbs. Anyway, just trying to better understand how resistance works with the fluid trainers because this was certainly an anomaly from what I have been experiencing. Thanks. Cycleops Fluid 2 definitely has a "warm-up" time, where once you ride it a bit, the resistance will bump up and then stay there. But I usually hit that within about 5 minutes, not an hour. Was your tire slipping or something like that? The reason I do spin down checks from 20mph at the start, after 10' or so and at the end is to make sure something didn't go wrong. I know the KK fluid will take about 2 sec less to spin down when cold starting out. In the past when I was first starting out on it I bumped my rear brake and it made for a hard WO, a spin down would have verified something was wrong. I also had my tension bolt strip (older version that KK replaced free) and the resistance went way down that was verified with a spin down that went long. |
| 2014-01-29 9:57 AM in reply to: audiojan |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by audiojan I can't remember the exact number, but Fluid2 max resistance is equal to somewhere north of 2000W. Considering Andre Gripel just won the last stage in Tour Down Under at a max of 1672W, that should be sufficient for pretty much anyone. In other words, there's something else going on. I'm guessing the tire is slipping… are you using a trainer tire or a standard road tire? And is the roller tightened enough against the tire? The only other explanation would be a leaky resistance unit, you would've noticed the puddle of oil on the floor. And if it has leaked, CycleOps do have a fantastic customer service, so the trainer will be back if that's the case. The tire is not slipping, I'm using a trainer tire. Roller is tightened against it, and it's not leaking. As I said, it's a brand new fly wheel as all this started with the new unit because my last one was leaking. |
| 2014-01-29 10:01 AM in reply to: tb1000 |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by tb1000 Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Did you ever figure out what the deal was with your trainer getting sluggish on you? I'm having the exact same problem you're talking about. It'll feel completely fine then about 30-45 minutes in the tension seems to go through the roof. I just received a new flywheel because my last one was leaking, so its not an age thing. I've done three rides on it so far. The FTP test, ISLAGIATT, and Revolver. It happened during the FTP test and revolver. It never happened during the other. Which is leading me to believe there's a certain wattage that causes this to happen. ISLAGIATT never gets very high, but its just sustained. WHere as Revolver, I was well above the target for the first 9 intervals, then all of a sudden I couldn't come anywhere near target. My target goal was 325. For the first 8 I was around 350 and felt fine, then immediately on the next one I could barely muster 270-280, and it only got worse from there. I'm hoping you maybe figured out what was going on, because I cant' for the life of me understand this. I also know it wasn't fatigue. Fatigue slowly wears you down, it doesn't slam you like a wall. You can see my logs(if they're public, not sure) how quickly it went down hill for me. I noticed it towards the end of ISLAGIATT the other day but it wasn't a resistance due to fatigue. It felt like I was trying to pedal through molasses. No idea what is causing it but my suspicion is overheating because that thing gets really hot. I don't think my tire is slipping because I would feel it in the pedal stroke and I don't think it is fatigue because I can still pedal but have to exert a significant amount more effort to hit watts that I was hitting before. Mine is behaving exactly the same as yours with the exception of having issues during ISLAGIATT. That's the only video I've done without a problem, and it's the only one that didn't call for a lot of big wattage sections. Mine goes from normal to immediately having that same feeling of pedalling thru molasses, fatigue doesn't hit that hard, so I know it's something with the trainer. I haven't noticed how hot mine is getting, but the one thought I had was is it possible that the air is expanding in the tire due to heat which would increase the resistance? Seems like that would've happened before on my previous flywheel. "I don't think it is fatigue because I can still pedal but have to exert a significant amount more effort to hit watts that I was hitting before. " Exactly the same thing I'm goign thru. Way more effort to to maintain the same previous wattage, sometimes despite all the effort I can muster, I can't even come close to previously attainable wattages. IE, I will be ok at 280 for a while, then 260 destroys me. |
| 2014-01-29 10:21 AM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
| Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Just repeating my question from above. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear and/or increase your cadence to hit the same watts? |
| 2014-01-29 12:52 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by axteraa Just repeating my question from above. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear and/or increase your cadence to hit the same watts? Sorry, missed it amongst all the replies. Cadence and gearing doesn't change to hit the same watts. just the amount of effort required increases drastically. To the point that i literally can't even touch the same wattage that I was sustaining earlier, even for a couple seconds. |
| 2014-01-29 1:19 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
| Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by axteraa Just repeating my question from above. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear and/or increase your cadence to hit the same watts? Sorry, missed it amongst all the replies. Cadence and gearing doesn't change to hit the same watts. just the amount of effort required increases drastically. To the point that i literally can't even touch the same wattage that I was sustaining earlier, even for a couple seconds. If gearing and cadence don't change for the same wattage, I hate to tell you, but it ain't the trainer  |
| 2014-01-29 1:24 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by fisherman76 Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville If gearing and cadence don't change for the same wattage, I hate to tell you, but it ain't the trainer Originally posted by axteraa Sorry, missed it amongst all the replies. Cadence and gearing doesn't change to hit the same watts. just the amount of effort required increases drastically. To the point that i literally can't even touch the same wattage that I was sustaining earlier, even for a couple seconds. Just repeating my question from above. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear and/or increase your cadence to hit the same watts? Seeing as it's virtual watts with TR (I'm making an assumption there), I'd be inclined to think the opposite. If gearing and cadence don't change then speed doesn't change. Virtual watts are derived from speed so if RPE is suddenly going way up to maintain the same speed then something is providing additional resistance. It would have to be the trainer or something rubbing on the wheel I would think (or somewhere else along the drivetrain)? I suppose they could be suddenly getting tired but it really doesn't sound like that to me if I'm understanding correctly. Edit to add: the reason I asked the question was if they suddenly had to shift or increase cadence that might suggest a problem with the speed sensor, maybe a misaligned magnet or something. To the OP, can you post a link to a workout that it happened in? Edited by axteraa 2014-01-29 1:26 PM |
| 2014-01-29 1:34 PM in reply to: fisherman76 |
| Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by fisherman76 Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville If gearing and cadence don't change for the same wattage, I hate to tell you, but it ain't the trainer Originally posted by axteraa Sorry, missed it amongst all the replies. Cadence and gearing doesn't change to hit the same watts. just the amount of effort required increases drastically. To the point that i literally can't even touch the same wattage that I was sustaining earlier, even for a couple seconds. Just repeating my question from above. When it happens, do you have to shift to a harder gear and/or increase your cadence to hit the same watts? If your using virtual power with a GC or TrainerRoad target, they would know nothing about what your trainer resistance unit is actually doing as they are only looking for X speed to report Y wattage based on a curve. If gearing and cadence doesn't change nor would your speed so the program can only assume constant wattage even though you are struggling to do it. Now if your using a power meter then it will report what's happening in real time. |
| 2014-01-29 1:51 PM in reply to: nolehypothesis |
| Master 1946 Memphis, TN | Subject: RE: Fluid trainer resistance Originally posted by nolehypothesis I really don't think putting the fan on the resistance unit was what solved the problem. I'm not sure what the problem really was, but I'm guessing by you getting off and getting back on the bike corrected whatever it was. I wouldn't permanently point a fan at the trainer from now on if that's what you're thinking x2 on this. Pointing a fan at the pump won't help. Mine has fins to help the head dissipate on it own. It's just more noise that you don't need and air that could be pointed at your face to cool you down. |
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