Run training question - Zone 2 vs. getting faster

Yes- speed work helps you get faster, but it's the icing on the cake.  First, you must make cake.  The idea for endurance running is to become very efficient at running easily.... by doing a lot of easy running.  Speed work, while stressing your body and forcing adaptation, will also 

Also- yes, after you've got your mileage up there, 25mpw and up, you can start adding speed work.  But even with that- most of your running should still be zone 2.

Running:  Mostly easy- sometimes hard

Cycling:  sometimes easy, sometimes hard

swimming:  mostly hard, sometimes easy.

and 90% of your gains will come from consistency and volume.  we're really just talking about the 10% to try and optimize the 90%

We tell people to swim hard and fast in order to be a fast swimmer.  We tell people to bike hard and fast to become a fast cyclist.  We tell people to slow waaaay down and run more in order to be a faster runner.  Yes, you will get faster by running more, even if it's slow, but you won't get fast........to get fast you have to run hard and fast.  Running is not magic.  I agree that getting "faster" is fine for most of us.....but for those who want to truly compete, you have to run fast....a lot.  The fast runners I spend time with do the exact opposite of the advice most often given here.  They run mostly intervals, and mostly fast, but sometimes they run easy, to help recover from the fast.  For anything over 10K I would agree with more running and more easy running.......but you won't get fast that way.  Fast is built 5K and under.......and the speed carries over to longer distances as you run more and build endurance to carry your speed further. 

This idea that injuries occur more frequently with fast running is crap.....and unsupported.  Injuries occur when you add too much stress.....which can come just as easily from too much slow running as it can from lesser amounts of fast running.  Build smart and add stress slowly......that's the only way to avoid injury.

LB, 

I totally agree with your statement, "Build smart and add stress slowly......that's the only way to avoid injury." That is absolutely right. 

And I like the idea of encouraging others to work on lots of different types of running. But I think where I get hung up is that quality workouts, as you know, aren't just about going out and running as fast as you can. You are trying to hit certain paces for different types of adaptations. You run these for different time intervals, with a variety of rest intervals and form is increasingly important and might even need to be monitored by someone who knows what to look for. You do drills to work on form, but they have to be done exactly right or they aren't worth shyte...there is just a lot more room for error if one doesn't know what they are doing and why.

And I think that is why we tend to give the more simple advice of run more. I get what you are saying, maybe they won't get to be the fastest they can be this way. Helll, I know I'm not yet. But I think it gets them down the road far enough that if they discover they have some talent, or really enjoy it and want to get better THEN they can explore getting a coach or at least educating themselves on the types of quality workouts that will get them there. 

Interestingly enough I made very similar gains in terms of getting "fast" as I did while training for a marathon (lots of slower mileage) as I did when I was doing more intensity. I PRed by about 30 seconds in the 5K both ways. 

I think that's riyht, and I agree with most of what you said.  I can only post about the running I see and have done.....and I don't think I have ever said just go out and run as fast as you can.  In fact, what I have said is that the fast running is very focused, very structured, and very goal oriented.  I've also said that it is very short duration, but yeah, it's meant to build speed...and what I watch is meant to build sub 15:00 5k speed, and sub 4:15 mile speed.......but the speed is relative.  Obvioulsy the people I watch are young guns, but the programs and intensity can easily be adapted......and in fact it is, but I don't stay around to watch it, I've just seen the various protocols. 

I know you like this stuff and enjoy seeing different workouts.....here's what I watched last night with my son and another kid he trains with....all done on the overspeed treadmill.  As you will note, it has NOTHING to do with "just go run as fast as you can".

10.5             2      5.0        :35

11                2       6.0       :50

11                1       6.0        1:45

11                1       6.5        1:10

12                1       5.5          :50

13                2       4.0          :30

11                2      10.0         :15

13.5             2       2.5           :18

15                2       2.5           :16

17.5             2       2.5            :14

The first column is mph, then reps, then elevation, then duration.  As you can see, time goes down as speed goes up....speed comes down as elevation goes up, etc.  It's all science baserd and all with the principles that we all seem to agree on......increase strees slowly...and even during the workout, as speed goes up time and elevation come down.  Yeah, the last 4 reps ar 4:00/mile pace and 3:30/mile pace, but the speed and elevation drop.

You start each rep when your HR gets back to 80%....and as soon as it does you start the next rep.  I would imagine those intervals are MUCH less, time wise, then most people envision, but the gains are immense with a regular program......he does this 3 times per week (slightly different each time).  The number of reps, speed, elevation and duration are all, obviousoly, adjustable for different levels of runners.  ON the days he is not doing intervals like this he runs easy.....except for a tempo run of 3-5 miles once per week.

As you can see, it's less than 7 minutes of total running.

For sure it is.....and it's very easy to say run more, mostly easy, sometimes fast, or whatever.  But the truth is, that's not how you get fast....you can get "faster"....but like swimming and biking, if you want to have a truly fast run, you have to run fast, and it has to be with with much more frequency and with a better p-lan than "sometimes".  These inertval workouts are very intense, but of very short duration.....but the duration builds as you are able to handle more stress, both in speed and elevation.

The idea that the best way to run faster is to run more is fine.....but it may not be the most effecient use of time or the best way to get truly fast......both important considerations for anyone doing sprint/oly triathlon.

I can tell you that they get into zone 5/threshold on nearly every workout (I know you said three zones but he trains in 5).....and it's not a stretch to say EVERY workout.  The duration that they stay in that zone varies.....but being fast requires training fast, and they do, constantly.  BUT......the duration in those zones is probably much less than you might imagine......varying anywhere from 5% of some run workouts to 75% of some swim sets that are just brutal.  Everything is monitored by HR or Watts and testing is constant to keep the zones correct.  But again, the payoff is in very focused workouts that actually cut the amount of time wokring out and maximize the benefit.  He rarely runs even 15 miles per week.....but he swims 50,000 in a week, and probably bikes 3-5 hours.  The bike will increase as the season gets closer, and the run will pick up to maybe 20-25 miles per week.....never more.  The swim stays pretty constant but drops to about 35-40,000 over the summer. 

What about just for running, as this thread is about running? And would it be fair to say that fast running is included quite frequently, though it may not actually dominate the amount of time spent running?

You're contradicting yourself, though.

Fast running = high stress. No doubt about it. You run fast too often, or run too fast even at low volume (like 100m sprints when you're not ready for them), and you'll get injured. You can't say injuries don't occur more frequently with fast running if you agree that running fast is itself a significant stress load. 

I and most running programs/coaches out there recognize that peak stress is one of the biggest risk factors for run injuries. Going too fast at short distances, even without significant volume of running, will lead to injuries far, far faster than a lot of aerobic volume.

I'm like a broken record, but someone's gotta say it - encouraging newer triathletes (the core audience on BT) to do all fast training is the worst training advice you could give. Literally, the worst. I can't even think of any other riskier training advice to give, honestly. Even for elites, it has to be done carefully - even Javier Gomez (#2 fastest ITU triathlete in the world) in his interview (you can find it on youtube) says straight up he has to be VERY careful with speedwork because its so easy to get injured. 

Yes....like I said, the workout you see above is done 3 times per week (slight variations) and is all of the running for that day.....yes, about 30 minutes total with warmup and cool down and drills.  The other 2 or 3 days are longer runs (3-7 miles) but they always include strides or some hill work...sometimes strides at 75%, sometimes strides at race pace, etc.  Also, each day there is about 10 minutes of drilling for form maintenance.

This is what we're trying to get through in this discussion. Fast running = faster accumulation of stress, but kept shorter in time the amount is less. And also the difference between running fast all the time (or as fast as possible) vs making sure to include fast fairly often throughout the running. Strides are fast, but adding them in several times a week isn't a significant load increase. Add a 20-30 minute tempo to those strides & easy running and what you have is not *too* different from what he just said his kid does.

No, stress is relevant.  High stress to you might be 80% of threshold....that's not high stress for fast people...they have worked through that stress level....yes, slowly, but they've moved past it.  He will stay at that 3:30/mile pace for his fastest intervals for 2-3 weeks, or 6-9 workouts before he moves faster, and even when he does the elevation will first come down as the speed goes up.  Elevation is how they add stress without addeing speed....and it's done very slowly.  You can sound like a broken record, that's ok, but these protocols are all science based and tried.....the rate of injury is almost non-existent if the plan is followed. 

Yeah, I was wondering that as well because I also am an agent for some very fast runners  and none of them run fast every (or nearly every) workout, even the middle-distance specialists. 

I imagine this varies widely when 2 other sports are introduced. 

Thanks. This is helping quite a bit to clarify what is going on. And is really fairly similar to what I and (at least some) others think someone should build towards. Not everyone, but have seen a number say similar. The trick is figuring out to get all that worked into a program, and the emphasis on getting all that in seems to be the bigger difference. More so than whether to include it at all. Your kid has some very good coaches to handle all this. I usually pick up things fairly well and am still working out the balance for myself, let alone how to get specific details for someone else.

No, that's not what I meant, sorry.  What I tried to say is that some run workouts are only 5% fast .....some are much more, like the treadmill workout I posted, which is done 3 times per week.  I was trying to answer your question about how much time  in zone 5.  What I meant to convey is that he is in that zone EVERY day, in EVERY workout, swim bike and run.  The amount in zone 5 varies from 5 - 75%....swim is definately the highest by a wide margin.....he gets out of the pool trashed.

Yes, Salty, but I bet they run alot more than 15 miles per week.....right?  And like you say, they aren't biking and swimming.