Ukraine (Page 2)

Crimea is part of Russia.....everyone needs to get over it....the ship has sailed. 

Putin vs. Obama?  C'mon.....please.  Obama's not even in the game.

It's interesting how Putin is riding high approval ratings due to this annexation, but at the same time he sort of shot himself in the foot.  He really *does not* want Ukraine to have any more ties with the EU or NATO.  And yet by taking Crimea, he severely crippled prospects of the Party of Regions winning in the upcoming May election.  Without Crimeans included in Ukraine's voting, it is very likely the elections will lean towards the west.

Of course this is why we're seeing the continued pressure and games.  Russia will try to keep dissent levels high, then they'll cry foul over anything that happens in this election.

I think that's right to a degree.  I think Unkrain was going pro-west even with Crimea still a part of the country, which is why Putin did what he did.  He's kind of stuck now though.  He knows he can't get Ukrain without a massive backlash, so now he is left to gamesmanship.  He's a pro......so he'll make a play somehow, but I think he's waited too long.  If you act swiftly the West just kind of sits and whines (Crimea).....if you wait too long they get their ducks in line and cause some serious economic issues.

The problem is Putin.  He's old school, and very savvy, as underhanded as his methods may be.  Currently, there is not a leader in the Western world who can match him in experience and ability to gain a united front behind his decisions.(forget about the methods to accomplish that, it doesn't matter)  Obama has nothing, and like it or not, the strength of the U.S. is always important in these issues. 

I think Putin will continue to chip away rather than make another "bold" move like he did with Crimea. The West will stand by rather than make a stand.  The U.S. is weary after the wars in the Middle East and that region is not on the map of the majority of Americans......the rest of the free world follows along.  Putin understands that better than anyone.   

It's crazy.  I saw the headline today and went wtf, this just doesn't happen.

Obviously it's all speculation at this point, but this was the best guess I've seen so far: ( quote from http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-passenger-jet-shot-down-over-ukraine/)

But retired Army Lt. Col Ralph Peters, also a Fox News contributor, said it is unlikely the Russian military would have put missile batteries capable of knocking a plane out of the sky at such an altitude in the hands of rebels.

"It wasn't the separatists, although Russia will try to blame them, or blame the Ukrainians," Peters said. "The Russians have not given the separatists complex, high-altitude air-defense systems. If this airliner was flying at 34,000 feet or any altitude close to that, it was shot down by Russian military air-defense systems perched on the Ukrainian border."

Peters said the Russian military has been shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft in recent weeks, and most likely mistook the airliner for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

I used to be a Fire Controlman in the Navy and my job was to shoot down airplanes.  With our 80's technology radar/missile system it was very easy to tell if we were targeting a large aircraft or a small aircraft/missile, so there's little doubt that they were targeting a large aircraft.  My guess is they thought they were shooting at another military cargo plane and mistakenly hit the 777.  There's no benefit to either side to murder hundreds of civilians that I can see.

If this missile was launched anywhere near the Russian border we will never know the truth.  There will be claims and assertions.....but we won't definitively know...ever.

If they want to own up to it, sure.  I'm not taking that bet.  They are going to own up to shooting down a civilian aircraft??  To what benefit? 

That may be, but throughout the media and everywhere else they are being called Russian Separatists.  

I see a lot of people pointing to the separatists, but I just can't see the Russians giving them sophisticated anti-air weapon systems like this to "play with".

I know the Russian military isn't trained to any level close to the US military, but I went to almost two years of training to work on and operate the radar/weapon systems I used on the ship I was on.  I just can't see the Russians handing something like that over to untrained Ukranian people who support the Russians.  Guns, RPG's, maybe even light armored vehicles, but beyond that I am having a hard time buying it.

Still trying to find it, but I thought I either read or heard (radio) that the Ukraine claims they don't have the weaponry to do what this SAM did.  I could be WAY off, but if that is true, then what?

Found it.

"Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko told Interfax Thursday that the Ukrainian army is not equipped with the SA-11, which raises questions about where the separatists may have gotten one (if that's in fact what they used)."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/07/17/this-is-the-surface-to-air-missile-that-ukraine-says-shot-down-mh17/ 

I think you make a great point with the "then what" part.  Lets just say Hypothetically that the Russians did shoot it down (accidentally, or intentionally).  What does the US do?  Do we just impose sanctions?  Can we really even do that because Russia has a lot of power with energy resources, so they could "impose sanctions" as well and likely cause more harm.

We're certainly not going to get into an armed conflict with Russia, so I truly don't know what difference it makes no matter how tragic it was.

There is nothing WE can do, but I'm certain hoping there is something the average public in Russia will do.  I don't know what, but THEY are in reality the only ones that can do anything.

At first I thought for sure this would unify the Europeans against Putin, but the more time that goes by  the more I think they're just too dependent on Russian energy to do anything too severe. Maybe it'll unify their populations behind implementing some sanctions that would hurt them as well as Russia, but if Putin can continue denying involvement and change the subject to say, pushing for a cease fire I think a lot of the momentum for actual sanctions with teeth from the Europeans will be lost and Russia will get away with what they've been doing.

I would think Putin will take full advantage of the world being focused on ISIS.