General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Z2 Running pace is slooooow Rss Feed  
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2014-03-08 2:31 PM

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Subject: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Getting ready to start the Iron Fit program for a HIM in September. As such, I've started looking at the workouts and trying them out. I've thought there was going to be an issue and I really think that Z2 running is going to kill me!

I'm a decent runner (ran in HS and college) but just carrying some extra lbs right now. I've lost 15 lbs already in '14 and would like to lose another 15-20 before my HIM Even so, I ran a 21 min 5K in Nov and can easily hit the ranges for my slow/easy runs according to the McMillian calculator for my 5K time. For example, I'll average very low to mid 8 min/miles over 7-8 miles and not feel too terribly taxed afterwards. All winter, I'd run a longish run on the weekend (like the 7-8 miles described above) and then 1-2 runs during the week between 3-6 miles and at mid 7ish/mile.

I did my first 8 mile run today and tried to stay in Z2 range. I say "tried" b/c I wasn't there. Averaged 10:21/mile and still averaged a 147 HR. Z2 for me should be topping out at 138. Yet any slower and I'd feel like I was tripping over myself trying to slow down or running like Forest Gump- that slow/methodical upright form and barely going anywhere.

Is it just that I'm a Honda VTEC engine that works better when revving high rather than a nice Chevy big block that runs nicely low in the RPM range?

Thanks for any input or advice!


2014-03-08 2:40 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
I know that feeling. Running is a long game - stick with it and it'll pay off.

Although that is a very low top of Z2 figure. They're all different of course but make sure that's right. I keep mine below 150
2014-03-08 2:47 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
hwo are you calculating your HR zones?

A) what is yoru typical HR when you run at what you would describe as "easy"?

B) What marathon trainign paces do you get from mcmillan calculator for your 5k time?


When you run an easy run from B, your HR should be similar to A. Conversely when you run at HR of A, it should result i na pace that is close-ish to B.

Just one way to cross check things.
2014-03-08 2:55 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by AdventureBear

hwo are you calculating your HR zones?

A) what is yoru typical HR when you run at what you would describe as "easy"?

B) What marathon trainign paces do you get from mcmillan calculator for your 5k time?


When you run an easy run from B, your HR should be similar to A. Conversely when you run at HR of A, it should result i na pace that is close-ish to B.

Just one way to cross check things.


I'm 38. Resting HR of 55 or so. My top HR is 184 or so. The way I've calculated Z2, it's 122-138

A. I can't say what exactly, but I'd say those long runs in the 8's are mid 170s.
B. McMillian says my marathon time would be a 3:29. Long runs are in the 8:04-9:21 range. Easy run in the 8:01 to 9:01 range. Nothing says 10:21 mile!!!
2014-03-08 2:57 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by Dan-L

I know that feeling. Running is a long game - stick with it and it'll pay off.

Although that is a very low top of Z2 figure. They're all different of course but make sure that's right. I keep mine below 150

150 would be a bit more doable. I'd at least be in the mid/upper 9's/mile. It just seems counterproductive to work so much easier when the "harder" working does not bother me too much. Yeah, I'm sore, but not can't walk sore. More of the "no pain/no gain" variety!
2014-03-08 3:35 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Your numbers are pretty similar to what my HR does and I've calculated my z2 to go into the mid 150's. I'm guessing you used a generic HR zone based only on age, resting heart rate, and max hr. A better method is to do a lactate threshold test and then calculate based off of that.
I think 85-91% of your LTHR is what is used to determine a good zone 2 heart rate.


2014-03-08 4:05 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow

Originally posted by keg97
Originally posted by AdventureBear hwo are you calculating your HR zones? A) what is yoru typical HR when you run at what you would describe as "easy"? B) What marathon trainign paces do you get from mcmillan calculator for your 5k time? When you run an easy run from B, your HR should be similar to A. Conversely when you run at HR of A, it should result i na pace that is close-ish to B. Just one way to cross check things.
I'm 38. Resting HR of 55 or so. My top HR is 184 or so. The way I've calculated Z2, it's 122-138 A. I can't say what exactly, but I'd say those long runs in the 8's are mid 170s. B. McMillian says my marathon time would be a 3:29. Long runs are in the 8:04-9:21 range. Easy run in the 8:01 to 9:01 range. Nothing says 10:21 mile!!!
Read this article (linked), do the field run test, use the BT HR calculator for LT method, report back what your HR zones are and try it out on your next run.

Hy LT HR zones line up within the McMillian pace zones very well.

2014-03-08 5:38 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow

If it's your first 'real' run for awhile and it's warmer out, your HR will be higher than expected. Once you get back in the groove, it'll settle back down into the expected range (lower). You see this a lot after taking time off for a cold, etc.



Edited by yazmaster 2014-03-08 5:38 PM
2014-03-08 8:57 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by keg97
Originally posted by AdventureBear hwo are you calculating your HR zones? A) what is yoru typical HR when you run at what you would describe as "easy"? B) What marathon trainign paces do you get from mcmillan calculator for your 5k time? When you run an easy run from B, your HR should be similar to A. Conversely when you run at HR of A, it should result i na pace that is close-ish to B. Just one way to cross check things.
I'm 38. Resting HR of 55 or so. My top HR is 184 or so. The way I've calculated Z2, it's 122-138 A. I can't say what exactly, but I'd say those long runs in the 8's are mid 170s. B. McMillian says my marathon time would be a 3:29. Long runs are in the 8:04-9:21 range. Easy run in the 8:01 to 9:01 range. Nothing says 10:21 mile!!!
Read this article (linked), do the field run test, use the BT HR calculator for LT method, report back what your HR zones are and try it out on your next run.

Hy LT HR zones line up within the McMillian pace zones very well.



This should work MUCH better. Many thanks!
2014-03-08 9:44 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by keg97
I'm 38. Resting HR of 55 or so. My top HR is 184 or so. The way I've calculated Z2, it's 122-138

A. I can't say what exactly, but I'd say those long runs in the 8's are mid 170s.
B. McMillian says my marathon time would be a 3:29. Long runs are in the 8:04-9:21 range. Easy run in the 8:01 to 9:01 range. Nothing says 10:21 mile!!!


These numbers don't quite add up to me. Your MaxHR is pretty similar to mine, i.e. roughly what I'd hit in a 5k. I'm 46 and have a lower resting HR.

If your long runs that you describe as "easy" are yielding HRs just 10 beats below your max, then they're not easy runs. Those are pretty intense runs, possibly above your lactate threshold.

On the other hand, if you're trying to keep things below 138 all the time, that may be too slow. I would guess that anything up to ~150 should still be relatively comfortable.

You can probably ignore McMillan's marathon comparison time for now. Those comparisons assume that the runner is doing a whole lot more mileage than you are. With time, training and weight loss I'm sure that you could blow past that time, but not for now. But using the pace guides is probably safe ... though not if your HR is averaging 170+.

If you want to make progress at running, I'd recommend to get over the macho "no pain no gain" mantra. It makes for great commercials and pep talks from barking coaches, but it's not the best advice for middle aged runners. Most important is to run lots, be light, and avoid injury. If you want to get a good HM time, then increase the frequency of your running (building mileage *gradually*). Most runs won't feel particularly hard, and that's exactly what you want. Just because you're not heaving at the end, it doesn't mean that you're not stressing your body and causing it to adapt. You can mix up the paces some times, especially as your mileage increases, but pushing hard shouldn't be at the top of your list. Stick at it, and you'll see real results.

(I come from a high school track/XC background, and when I started back in my 40s, I thought I could train like I did when I was younger. I just got injured a lot. Took me a while to learn that lesson.)

Good luck.
2014-03-09 6:27 AM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow

Originally posted by keg97 . It just seems counterproductive to work so much easier when the "harder" working does not bother me too much. Yeah, I'm sore, but not can't walk sore. More of the "no pain/no gain" variety!

All I can think of when I read this is that you are an injury waiting to happen if you continue.

I agree with the suggestions above on doing a field test to determine proper HR zones.



2014-03-09 6:39 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by keg97 . It just seems counterproductive to work so much easier when the "harder" working does not bother me too much. Yeah, I'm sore, but not can't walk sore. More of the "no pain/no gain" variety!

All I can think of when I read this is that you are an injury waiting to happen if you continue.

I agree with the suggestions above on doing a field test to determine proper HR zones.




Agreed; while the zones are very likely wrong and need to be tested to be appropriate, being sore after all or most runs is never anything to aim for.

Shane
2014-03-09 8:13 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Thanks all for the responses. I'm doing the threshold test today and then I'll try settling into the "right" Z2 running for a few weeks and see how it works. There is no doubt that I'm probably overworking some workouts. I've been consistently running 2-3 times/week since October though so that part is in order. Any day I don't run, I'm on my bike putting in at least 40 mins of riding.

Thanks again- I appreciate the input and advice!
2014-03-09 8:42 AM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by keg97

Thanks all for the responses. I'm doing the threshold test today and then I'll try settling into the "right" Z2 running for a few weeks and see how it works. There is no doubt that I'm probably overworking some workouts. I've been consistently running 2-3 times/week since October though so that part is in order. Any day I don't run, I'm on my bike putting in at least 40 mins of riding.

Thanks again- I appreciate the input and advice!


Out of curiosity, why did you chose to try by HR rather than pace ?
2014-03-09 9:06 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by keg97

Thanks all for the responses. I'm doing the threshold test today and then I'll try settling into the "right" Z2 running for a few weeks and see how it works. There is no doubt that I'm probably overworking some workouts. I've been consistently running 2-3 times/week since October though so that part is in order. Any day I don't run, I'm on my bike putting in at least 40 mins of riding.

Thanks again- I appreciate the input and advice!


Out of curiosity, why did you chose to try by HR rather than pace ?

HIM Plan I'll be starting in late May is entirely by HR. Iron Fit.
2014-03-09 12:32 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Just finished up my test. I managed 2.9 miles at 7:02 pace.

Age: 38
LT: 180

1: Recovery 119-152
2: Extensive Endurance: 154-163
3: Intensive Endurance: 164- 172
4: Sub Threshold: 173-179
5a: Super Threshold: 180-184
5b: Anaerobic Endurance: 185-190
5c: Power: 191-199

So does this mean that my Z2 range is 154-163? My Z4 is 173-179? Any other insights?

Thanks all.


2014-03-09 12:36 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Where did the 199 come from? A few posts ago you were saying that your maximum HR was around 180. If you're running a 5k at 180, then I think it's unlikely that 163 falls in your Z2.

Threshold values are generally around what you could sustain for an hour, so lower than your 5k HR.
2014-03-09 1:49 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by keg97 . It just seems counterproductive to work so much easier when the "harder" working does not bother me too much. Yeah, I'm sore, but not can't walk sore. More of the "no pain/no gain" variety!

All I can think of when I read this is that you are an injury waiting to happen if you continue.

I agree with the suggestions above on doing a field test to determine proper HR zones.




Agreed.

Field test is good, but his recent 5k is also an existing field test that should line up.

I asked earlier HOW the OP determined the HR zones. He didn't say but said that it was calculated. Trhow away the calculator! Do a field test or use the avg HR from your 5k, or start using intuition coupled with a bit more caution.

Try a 6 mile run at a 9 min/mile pace.

Also try reading this:
http://linseycorbin.com/blog/view/ive-been-qt2-ed
2014-03-09 1:59 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
If your LTHR is 180, then your MHR is certainly highwe than 184.

Was that your average HR for that 2.9 miles (20 minutes)? 180?

If you have a garmin link to that workout, please post it!
2014-03-09 2:11 PM
in reply to: keg97

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Subject: RE: Z2 Running pace is slooooow
Originally posted by keg97

Just finished up my test. I managed 2.9 miles at 7:02 pace.

Age: 38
LT: 180

1: Recovery 119-152
2: Extensive Endurance: 154-163
3: Intensive Endurance: 164- 172
4: Sub Threshold: 173-179
5a: Super Threshold: 180-184
5b: Anaerobic Endurance: 185-190
5c: Power: 191-199

So does this mean that my Z2 range is 154-163? My Z4 is 173-179? Any other insights?

Thanks all.



Great work! You take online advice well.

So what field test did you do, warmup and then 20 minute all out run? or was this the last 20 minutes of a 30 minute all out run?
The 180 your average for some part of the test ? Or the adjusted value (ie 95% of the average value)?

It's much easier to post the data and then post the adjustments...we will have fewer questions.
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