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Average watts = average speed?
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 2014-03-10 11:53 PM |
 643   |  Subject: Average watts = average speed?Ok, this weekend I rode my bike outside with a power meter for the first time since I got it. Well 2nd time. This time I actually tried to keep watts in certain zones for my intervals and failed horribly. I did a ~4 hour ride with a mix of 120% FTP and then a 45m SS end at hour 3. This workout is in Training with a Power meter in the triathlon chapter. I failed this workout horribly, which is expected since I'm still working on my endurance but plan to keep trying this workout until I nail it Here's the question though: I averaged 210 watts on my ride and this yielded 18.8 mph (windy windy day!). 75% FTP (IM pace) for me is 200w right now but last year I was getting close to 19-20 mph on my long days, so I'm a little worried about the speed right now. I didn't have a PM last year and went solely off HR. During recovery in this ride, I didn't always get close to 200w. Would 200w at an hour be the same distance as 100w for 30 mins and 300w for 30 minutes? I want to say no, since the faster I go, the more watts it takes to break the wind. |
| 2014-03-11 12:19 AM in reply to: Blastman |
Master 1433  Calgary, AB Silver member | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? That's the whole point. You CAN'T gauge effort based on mph. Windy? Hilly? On a mountain bike with knobies? Who cares. You hit the % FTP asked for, that's the consistent window to work in, which ignores all the other conditions. That's why it's such a valuable race advantage - you know the power you're actually hitting, regardless of the conditions. And yes 100 for 30 then 300 for 30 should be the same 'work' as 200 for 60 (and the same avg power) but the normalized power would be totally different and you'd be slower on the 100/300 overall. |
| 2014-03-11 5:48 AM in reply to: Blastman |
| Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? |
| 2014-03-11 6:31 AM in reply to: Khyron |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by Khyron That's the whole point. You CAN'T gauge effort based on mph. Windy? Hilly? On a mountain bike with knobies? Who cares. You hit the % FTP asked for, that's the consistent window to work in, which ignores all the other conditions. That's why it's such a valuable race advantage - you know the power you're actually hitting, regardless of the conditions. X2.... There are too many variables that can affect speed on any given day. Ignore the speed and train by power, especially for IM training. Chasing an average speed goal for IM distance is a good way to ruin your day... |
| 2014-03-11 7:34 AM in reply to: DanielG |
| 643 | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by DanielG Ignore speed entirely. Train by watts. I pretty much answered my own question as I was writing this and asked this. I am ignoring speed and I never leave my watt screen. In fact I don't even have a total mileage field setup since I don't care about it since I'm training by time and zones. I was just curious about the average speed that I got when I uploaded my workout. The wind comment was mostly there to say that it was not an enjoyable workout, ignoring watts. /thread Don't need 50 more posts saying the same thing. |
| 2014-03-11 7:37 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by Blastman Originally posted by DanielG Ignore speed entirely. Train by watts. I pretty much answered my own question as I was writing this and asked this. I am ignoring speed and I never leave my watt screen. In fact I don't even have a total mileage field setup since I don't care about it since I'm training by time and zones. I was just curious about the average speed that I got when I uploaded my workout. The wind comment was mostly there to say that it was not an enjoyable workout, ignoring watts. /thread Don't need 50 more posts saying the same thing. FYI, you may want to reconsider 75% of FTP as IM pace :-) That is pretty aggressive. It's probably more in the sub 70% range of a properly measured FTP, which is a challenge in itself Edited by marcag 2014-03-11 7:38 AM |
| 2014-03-11 7:39 AM in reply to: Blastman |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? before killing off the thread, how did you determine your FTP out of curiosity? 200W at 75% ain't all that shabby, tells me you're not new to this game, even though the question was on the new side. |
| 2014-03-11 7:39 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Blastman FYI, you may want to reconsider 75% of FTP as IM pace :-) That is pretty aggressive. It's probably more in the sub 70% range of a properly measured FTP, which is a challenge in itself Originally posted by DanielG Ignore speed entirely. Train by watts. I pretty much answered my own question as I was writing this and asked this. I am ignoring speed and I never leave my watt screen. In fact I don't even have a total mileage field setup since I don't care about it since I'm training by time and zones. I was just curious about the average speed that I got when I uploaded my workout. The wind comment was mostly there to say that it was not an enjoyable workout, ignoring watts. /thread Don't need 50 more posts saying the same thing. Don't think I would want to go for 75% yet either. |
| 2014-03-11 8:09 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? I agree with the dictum to ignore speed and train by power (if you have it and are using it appropriately/smartly and all the other PM provisos and caveats). Take the below as adding to it, then, not arguing with it: While hitting the power asked for in a workout best ensures that you get the physiological changes needed at that point in your training plan, you still have to race on race day - where what matters perhaps the most is speed for the energy expended (again, provisos around IF and such acknowledged). So, as it gets closer to race day *I* try to hit my targets in as racelike a way as possible. Sure, you can and should grind out some righteous hill days in training while sitting up and such, and it will pay off. But as the race gets closer, you have to be able to put out all those Watts in your race-specific mode (aero, steady effort, etc.). For *me* it's important as the season progresses to train myself to ride like the race in addition to just hitting the power numbers. Good head position, elbows in the right place, body position, being used to riding with race hydration setup, cadence, steady power through hill and dale alike - all that stuff that might not get as much emphasis if you're only looking at power in training will matter in a race (or at least does for me), and if you're not used to pushing the power under those conditions, you might not push that power... Just what has worked for me in my relatively short tenure, but thought I'd add it in! Matt |
| 2014-03-11 1:42 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Blastman FYI, you may want to reconsider 75% of FTP as IM pace :-) That is pretty aggressive. It's probably more in the sub 70% range of a properly measured FTP, which is a challenge in itself Originally posted by DanielG Ignore speed entirely. Train by watts. I pretty much answered my own question as I was writing this and asked this. I am ignoring speed and I never leave my watt screen. In fact I don't even have a total mileage field setup since I don't care about it since I'm training by time and zones. I was just curious about the average speed that I got when I uploaded my workout. The wind comment was mostly there to say that it was not an enjoyable workout, ignoring watts. /thread Don't need 50 more posts saying the same thing. Don't think I would want to go for 75% yet either. I'm not sure I could hold 75% for an all out 112 mile TT. Keep in mind that FTP percentages for long course racing is largely dependant on how long you plan to be on the course. A flat and fast course which may take a top AGer under 5 hours can be ridden at a much higher % of FTP than a really hilly course done by a BOP'er in 8 hours. It would be foolish to think that both riders should shoot for the same % of FTP despite one being on the bike for 60% longer. |
| 2014-03-11 1:48 PM in reply to: Blastman |
| Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? I think of training with power for long course this way.... Training by FTP is for the run, not the bike. As others have said, don't sacrifice power plan to gain a theoretical speed you think you should be going. Would suck to gain 1 mph on the bike and be walking the last 13.1 because of it........ |
| 2014-03-11 2:34 PM in reply to: Blastman |
| 1660 | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Even if you were riding a dead-flat totally windless road, there would NOT be a linear relationship between watts and speed.
The faster you go, the exponentially more power is required. So going 30 to 31mph takes a lot more power/work than 12 to 13mph. So trust your power numbers over the speed.
That said, I wouldn't completely throw your average speed numbers away. Races are still won on time, not watts. If you have a day where your power seems good but overall ride speed is lower than your typical, look for influencing factors like heat, pacing, that you can control on race day. |
| 2014-03-11 6:48 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 643 | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by yazmaster Even if you were riding a dead-flat totally windless road, there would NOT be a linear relationship between watts and speed.
The faster you go, the exponentially more power is required. So going 30 to 31mph takes a lot more power/work than 12 to 13mph. So trust your power numbers over the speed.
That's what I thought about when I wrote this. I was just toying around with things in my head. It should be way more beneficial to ensure you don't drop your watts in the first place instead of trying to "catch up the average" type of thing from resting too much since a steady average would be faster than a spiky average at the same power level due to wind resistance. Little background since there were some questions: Last year I went solely off the Z2 (220-age) HR from Be Iron Fit (he has 4 zones instead of the more commonly accepted 5/7). This meant I was aiming for 150-155 HR, and I kept that HR even for 6 hour rides. Doing the HR test in Nov, I found my 30 min TT biking HR to be 167, which means I trained in tempo HR zone all of last year. So I can see myself being a little faster last year due to this but I'm also just getting back into shape and increased my FTP 5% each month the past 2 months. Goal is 300 FTP by race time. This ride was about 4 hours and the longest I've done so far was about 3:15, so I didn't expect miracles here. I just wanted to push FTP and endurance limits. I'll be doing steady long Z2 rides only as I get closer to my race (~5 months from now). Edited by Blastman 2014-03-11 6:51 PM |
| 2014-03-11 7:10 PM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? How do you know your FTP if this was only your second time riding your PM? I'd do an FTP test on the PM you plan on riding. Maybe I did it wrong but I rode with my PM a couple weeks before doing a FTP test Edited by rjrankin83 2014-03-11 7:12 PM |
| 2014-03-11 7:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 643 | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by rjrankin83 How do you know your FTP if this was only your second time riding your PM? I'd do an FTP test on the PM you plan on riding. Maybe I did it wrong but I rode with my PM a couple weeks before doing a FTP test Originally posted by Blastman Ok, this weekend I rode my bike outside with a power meter for the first time since I got it. Quote is actually bad since I meant to say 2nd time outside, since I got it. I've been inside all winter. I've done 4 FTP tests now. I do them on my rest week. First one I just had to wing it and hope I could get a decent 20 minute pace since winter was just starting and I wanted to get an outdoor baseline while I could. I do a 20 min Z2, 1 min max cadence * 3, 10 min Z2, 5 min all out, 10 min Z2, and then 20 min max interval for my testing. I then take my average 20 minute power * .95. I know there's different tests out there but this one works for me and is the one that's suggested in Training With a Power Meter. Most recent test (indoors): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/449653209 Edited by Blastman 2014-03-11 7:38 PM |
| 2014-03-12 8:19 AM in reply to: Blastman |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Average watts = average speed? Originally posted by Blastman Originally posted by rjrankin83 How do you know your FTP if this was only your second time riding your PM? I'd do an FTP test on the PM you plan on riding. Maybe I did it wrong but I rode with my PM a couple weeks before doing a FTP test Originally posted by Blastman Ok, this weekend I rode my bike outside with a power meter for the first time since I got it. Quote is actually bad since I meant to say 2nd time outside, since I got it. I've been inside all winter. I've done 4 FTP tests now. I do them on my rest week. First one I just had to wing it and hope I could get a decent 20 minute pace since winter was just starting and I wanted to get an outdoor baseline while I could. I do a 20 min Z2, 1 min max cadence * 3, 10 min Z2, 5 min all out, 10 min Z2, and then 20 min max interval for my testing. I then take my average 20 minute power * .95. I know there's different tests out there but this one works for me and is the one that's suggested in Training With a Power Meter. Most recent test (indoors): http://connect.garmin.com/activity/449653209 Gotcha. For what it's worth my watts are always lower on the trainer than they are outside. |
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