swim kick (Page 2)

JonnyO - I agree with your points on time, etc. in your follow up posts.  Your blanket statement that there was no benefit to fast freestyle in learning and training the other strokes is just wrong.  I think the best advice I got when I was vetting coaches for a beginner who showed a lot of promise was "get a swim coach for swimming, a cycling coach for the bike, and a running coach for the run...then find a good triathlon coach to put the race together and oversee the volume of the work."  I took that advice and it has been worth absolute gold.  I realize that not everyone has access to the type of coaching I found, but I've spent quite a bit of time around "triathlon coaches"......I haven't found one yet that I would trust with training each discipline specifically, or any of them actually.  Some are fabulous at putting together a program and overseeing the work......but the specific training knowledge to be fast in each discipline falls off pretty quickly.

Originally posted by jonnyo can you point me to the blanket statement by quoting it? because my first post clearly said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- if you have a kid or adult that can swim 5-6X a week..sure, do some back/fly/breast. But as most triathlete swim perhaps 2000-3000m 2 or 3 times a week....or less, it s a wise idea to stick to freestyle to get the most out of them. it s a matter of specificity and the best bang for your bucks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- now, from there, if you lost my train of thought......not my fault i know you like to argue!!! triathlon coach were ''good enought'' for the browlees at the olympics....frodo, craig alexander, simon whitfield, emma snowsill, paula findley, chrissie, greg bennett, gomez, etc ..... i would think you didnt look too much when youo were shopping all in fun! i m out to the pool now to coach triathlete so we can hopefully swim fast this summer!!

Jonny - you think the brownlees cut their swimming, biking, and running teeth with triathlon coaches?  Really?

And your quote of your post is a bit disingenuous.....here's the part you left out: LOL

"one word for you..... Specificity

don't get fool by the old ''swimming myth'' you been raise with. Science tells us clearly what matter in performance. 


there is a reason runners don't need to lean to dance or run backword to run fast....they stick to specificity and run"

I don't mind arguing, but I'd rather discuss.....you guys just don't like anyone disagreeing with you.   I'm OK with that.....I'm happy with the results I've seen from the expertise I've paid for.

You know what Shane, each one of his coaches wants him to specialize......he just won't have anything to do with it, and luckily, each of his coaches is OK with communicating with his triathlon coach, who is not in our area.  He's really a good kid, so the people that work with him want him to succeed......it's really been a blessing that it has gone so smoothly

The next few years are going to be very interesting for him.  He is being recruited to run XC and track in college....and then triathlon as he has known it will change dramatically, if that's the route he chooses.  The next two years in Jrs. will probably tell all as far as his immediate future in the sport goes.  He'll have some options if he keeps working, but his love is truly triathlon.  He doesn't want to be a runner, or a swimmer, or a cyclist only.

I know about her...amazing talent. 

I just don't know how any of this will go for him in the future.  This is not something we even knew he could do 3 years ago....it just kind of happened. He has dreams, I'm fortunate to be in a position to support that.  That's all.  His future is not nearly so clear for me.....we'll just see how it goes. He drives the bus....right now it's all just fun......the hard decisions are coming for him. All I can do is find good people for him to talk with to get good advice from.  I don't want him to end up chasing a dream he can't get to.....but so far he's still in the game.  He has been very patient with his progress....I hope he carries that with him.

There have been some folks on this board who were tremendously helpful when I first got on this board and didn't know anything about youth triathlon or how to go about finding coaches, etc.  Mike Ricci, Don (TriMyBest), and Shane, among others,  had some great words of wisdom.  It's been a great time for my son and me.....I'll be sad to see it end in a couple of years when he heads out on his own.

Tacking on those 200-300 kicksets to a 2,000 swim workout would help. Time limited people would have to replace some of that 2,000 to fit it in. Also consider that kicking is slower than swimming for many so the total is now more likely 1700-1800. It may or may not be as helpful.

So there's one guy on this thread that has won (or almost won) an IM or two and has coached a bunch of folks to the same.  And weekend warrior types are arguing with him.

F'n classic!

GMAN, you beat me to it. JonnyO, thanks a million for all your contributions here. And that goes for all the other coaches that have have deep experience coaching competitive and successful adult age-group athletes. Not exactly sure how you put up with the chatter, but the insight you freely give from your actual experience is pure gold.

Lots of good discussion on freestyle only vs. mixing in other swim disciplines, however I'm still wondering about my initial question when I revived this thread.

That being, should my pull sets be very close in pace to my regular freestyle?  If not, what should I work on to fix my leg posture in the water as I'm guessing I'm "dragging" etc...

I'm also interested in better understanding the above drill if I choose to continue with kick drills.

1)  On my back with my arms extended straight (you mention hand), thumbs locked (in a pointing position)?  

2)  Do you recommend doing shorter sets of these, similar to the short kickboard set distances?

I'm in the category of adult onset swimmer, limited time and therefore likely to mainly do freestyle in the pool...

Thanks.

I always find that funny too.   

I say question everything.....that's the easiest way to get to the meat of things. I don't worry about people getting their feathers ruffled or feeling like I'm not respecting their authority, or coachiness      on whatever issue is at hand......there are a lot of coaches out there, and a lot of opinions. You won't get the good stuff by nodding your head and keeping quiet.  You get the good stuff when you say, "wait a minute, I've seen this, or I've been taught that, or so and so says your wrong".  Coaches and other "experts" aren't always good at giving the "why", they just like you to do ....but if you push a bit , you either get the good stuff or they get mad at you.  Eaither way, you learn something about the sport and the coach.

Originally posted by simpsonbo I knew many swimmers who had top events in the same distance over 2 or 3 strokes.... ie 100 Fly/Bk/Fr or 200 Fly/Free. Hell Fly was my top stroke maybe I should have skipped all the distance free training Maybe what Jonny is saying might hold water with some adult onset swimmers with limited time. Maybe I should have a Vasa showdown with one of his athletes who only trains free.

Are you a vasa user?

It's not impossible to bring out the "good stuff" without turning everything into an argument. Plenty have had differing opinions without doing so.

No, actually my initial post started out explaining I do drills within sets that involve kicking and pulling... Since I time everything, I've noticed when I do pull drills those times are close to my freestyle time and I'm wondering if this is normal or not...If not, then that tells me my posture must somehow be causing my legs to drag (during freestyle)... OR I'm not kicking quite hard enough to "plane out"???

I think that's right on the money and very easy to accomplish in person.  I have dealings with quite a few people in the triathlon world....there are times when I ask a lot of questions and times when I disagree and there is a discussion....it always goes well.  On these boards, as soon as you disagree with someone it's considered an argument......discussions never go like they do in person and things get taken out of context, there is no chance to clarify before the next person goes off on a tangent, and on and on. 

In that light, I just don't worry about it.  It's not specific to this board or triathlon boards....it happens on every message board.  In another lifetime I ran a hunting and fishing board with a couple of other guys......plenty of "arguments"....then we'd have get-togethers and the discussions would be fantastic.  There was really no difference in the context of the discussion, but you could see expressions on other people's faces, hear their voice inflection, see them smile, etc so nobody ever considered it an argument and lots of learning took place.

I think we all tend to read posts with our own voices, and that frequently clouds what someone else is trying to express.